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Question for freezoners about DM

If it were a decent place, I would go back. But to be a decent place, it would have to right past wrongs as much as possible, financial and otherwise. Which ain't gonna happen. If they admit legal liability for all the things they should admit liability for, it would open the door to thousands of expensive lawsuits.

It would also have to be open to new tech development, from any source, which ain't gonna happen either. Plus operate sensibly, which also ain't gonna happen.

Would I be part of a sensible NEW organization that happened to use parts of Scn? Yes. But I don't see a way of getting there from here.

Paul

It would be soooooooo much easier to just take every thing Hubbard ever wrote or said, flush them down the toilet, then start over by creating an organization from scratch, which is not designed to be a totalitarian cult from it's inception.
 
Would I be part of a sensible NEW organization that happened to use parts of Scn? Yes. But I don't see a way of getting there from here.

Paul


It could be argued that the "groundwork" for doing exactly that is being accomplished by all of us even now. Notice: this is likely to be a loooooooong term effort. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
Another thing is the church at this time is populated by people largely in agreement with things exactly like they are. So if you cut off the head then you would have a headless corpse pretty much doing the same shit purely out of habit. Kind of like letting a 20 year convict out of jail. He's going to steal a car in his first week out so he can go back to jail as it's the only way he knows how to survive. These abusive patterns are so engrained in some at this point they wouldn't likely just snap out of it. I agree that turning it into anything positive is impossible.
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
So, honest question here: if David Miscavige was kicked out and someone else took over Scientology, how likely would you be to go back? Please feel free to explore all the possible angles on this one, and thanks for your input.

If the CoS were to undergo major reform then I might be interested in being co-operative in whatever way seemed appropriate at the time. I don't think I would want to actually go back to them.

Major reform would have to go a lot deeper than simply replacing DM - an awful lot deeper.

Nick
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Another thing is the church at this time is populated by people largely in agreement with things exactly like they are. So if you cut off the head then you would have a headless corpse pretty much doing the same shit purely out of habit. Kind of like letting a 20 year convict out of jail. He's going to steal a car in his first week out so he can go back to jail as it's the only way he knows how to survive. These abusive patterns are so engrained in some at this point they wouldn't likely just snap out of it. I agree that turning it into anything positive is impossible.

I agree. Except the last sentence.

It is the pattern many churchs have gone through to have swings in one direction or another, and we are just one leader away from our founder, the pendulum will swing the other way too, and maybe in several centuries we will get it right.

But good points on the culture being ingrained.
 

Div6

Crusader
it takes a special kind of insanity to continuosly harm others and call it "winning" and "expansion" over and over and over again. To that degree, the CoS serves a purpose of aggregating all of those people with that crazyness in to one group, and insulating them from the rest of society.





i personally think it is a bad idea to validate them with "tax breaKs', but then it appears that other groups share the same nuttiness that the scilons have as well.



go back? no.

help create something new, or different? maybe. But the SO will have to be disbanded and all of their "leaders" put on trial for their crimes first.
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
So, honest question here: if David Miscavige was kicked out and someone else took over Scientology, how likely would you be to go back? Please feel free to explore all the possible angles on this one, and thanks for your input.
.

Here are my terms:

No more sea org or staff abuse

Competative Market prices. Basicaly it would have to be the same price as FZ or better. The chirch could not set prices. Individual autiors outside the church ( such as misions) could set their own prices and be competative with each other.

OT levels and L's could be done at missions or outside auditors

The church could not have a monopaly on any of the processes

I could decide on what i wanted to do

No sec checks

No assignment of condititons

No disconnection

Free Speech

I can do other practices if i like

i don't have to tell the D of P every time I shit shower or wind my watch

Probably a few more conditions but I would start there.

Basically if the church is the same as the free zone is now I would go back but why bother since I have the free zone
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dulloldfart said:
If it were a decent place, I would go back. But to be a decent place, it would have to right past wrongs as much as possible, financial and otherwise. Which ain't gonna happen. If they admit legal liability for all the things they should admit liability for, it would open the door to thousands of expensive lawsuits.

It would also have to be open to new tech development, from any source, which ain't gonna happen either. Plus operate sensibly, which also ain't gonna happen.

Would I be part of a sensible NEW organization that happened to use parts of Scn? Yes. But I don't see a way of getting there from here.

This is very early in the morning so I apologise if it's a bit rambly and incoherent.

I agree with Paul, and with others here.

To be honest, I think what they need above all is higher quality people; less authoritarian and hierarchical, more caring, more broad minded, less tolerant of stupidity uplines, and willing and able to think for themselves instead of always having to be told what to do.

Plus, people able to take no for an answer when they suggest to you that you might want to book a new service or training course.

In other words, people more like those whom Pilot, Leonard Dunn and others have said were there in the early days. Pilot said he knew such people in the CofS who were keeping their heads down and hoping for better times, and I hope he was right.
 
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nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
Here are my terms:

No more sea org or staff abuse...etc.

I want to see an end to materials monopoly. It is, to my mind, the belief (mistaken or otherwise) that Scn is the route out and the CoS is the only place you can get it that underpins the unnatural hold it has on its members (both staff and public alike).

An end to all previous ethics and justice actions to the extent that the files are thrown away. Not just a conditional amnesty if you write up your o/ws - a complete unilateral cessation of war with its own people.

Permanent disbandment of the "B1" (intel) activities of OSA (or any replacement thereof).

Total, permanent, for real cancellation of "fair game" and enforced "disconnection".

An end to the unnecessary war with psychs, governments, bankers, "squirrels".

A restoration of the Franchise policies that enable the field fairly free reign to do what they do without direct control of the main church. This means disbanding SMI and returning to a situation similar to the Franchise Office WW.

Abolition of the robotic, apparently DM inspired changes to the materials. Immediate reinstatement of the pre '82 situation would do for a start prior to a proper review by tech people - not an admin person like DM. Following this permanent separation of technical and admin control of the church.

Disband all management networks in churches - bar two at most - one tech, one admin - they don't need all that monitoring.

Plenty more changes that would follow from the above.

Nick
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
Not that I'd want to do it or even be part of it since I've left any and all of anything called "scientology" behind long, long ago, but...

If a group of people were interested in growing an organization larger than a few individual practitioners supported by a secretary to answer the phone and handle the mail and file stuff, which would have as its purpose obtaining clients to which the organized practitioners could "deliver" their version of the "tech" (whatever they want to call it), to me it seems really simple and obvious.

First, throw out ALL of Hubbard's "Admin" -- the green on white and the blue on white and anything he had to say about running an organization, which includes all the organizational "ethics" material, the policies on how NOT to pay bills and staff, etc. This is what makes "scientology" so crazy and unmanageable, and if you really take a good look at it:

what actual practical purpose does all this serve?

when compared to other, successful enterprises: NONE.

You could save a selected few pieces from the morass, such as the "ethics conditions" as they are used for personal "conditions by dynamics" type actions if you feel that's useful. I can think of a small handful of other bits that might be useful; but almost all of those would then be part of the "tech" used for the benefit of individuals, not as organization-building/protection tools as they are now.

Then form up an organization/company based on the simple, sane principles that successful companies all over the world have used to build effective organizations and obtain their market share of their local and/or world-wide economy.

There are top-down pyramid-type organizations, and there are wider-based organizations that invite "management" input from everyone, so pick whichever looks more likely (in your opinion, with your particular group) to succeed. It would behoove the "founders" of such an enterprise to do some research on business management theory and tools or hire someone with college education in business management to help them set it up.

One very simple and effective form which "grows" naturally and logically is the three-division structure:

(1) production -- making and quality control of the actual product, which in the case of scientology would be the various training and auditing actions and completions of steps of progress
(2) sales -- reaching out to and closing and taking the money of the potential clients through marketing activities -- market research, advertising, defining demographics and the approach to them, etc. You can only mine the pool of "ex" scientologists for a short while before that pool dries up
(3) administration -- the record keeping, bill-paying, phone answering, mail-delivering, legal compliance and protection, etc. that ensures the organization keeps on running.

Hubbard's organization had seven divisions with at least three departments each -- I challenge anyone to tell me of any function in that clumsy structure that could not be reassigned and "managed" in one or another of the simple three-division structure I've outlined above.

Anything else is completely extraneous, induces chaos and anxiety in the personnel and their activities, and eventually sinks an organization under its own weight -- as would have happened with CoS LONG ago if not for their so-called "monopoly" on their product, the "brainwashing" that convinces people it IS a monopoly, and its various forms of threat and intimidation which for years kept any former insiders from exposing the truth about its internal machinations.

Of course, to make this work on even a small scale, and particularly on a large scale, you must begin with a "product" that has real value to the potential customers who might buy it.

IMO that is the biggest hurdle to overcome in selling/ distributing "scientology" as we have known it.

Just sayin'
 

Imnotsupposetobehere

Patron with Honors
if David Miscavige was kicked out and someone else took over Scientology, how likely would you be to go back? Please feel free to explore all the possible angles on this one, and thanks for your input.


Well, no the church at least in my reality has been taken over by Suppressives and so if David Miscavige was kicked out then they would mearly place some other DB in his place. DM is nothing but a puppet for the guys who are truely behind it.

:no:
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Have you read the Service PL, BWG?

A good excerpt of one of the good policies:

"The watchword is SERVICE."

"Where there's ........ a preclear to be processed or a student to be trained,

see that it is done; and if it gets done, don't count the cost in broken rules."

"We are essentially breakers of "now-I'm-supposed-to's." Don't fall into our

own new rituals so hard that we are no longer brave and effective."

"But don't worship our rituals. Be as orderly as you can. Follow our rules

as best you can. But a rule can be wrong and service and our mission can

never be wrong.

Use the rules until they prevent you from doing your job. But if these stop

you, then to hell with the rules ! Get the show on the road !"


LRH, HCOPL of 29 October 1959 Issue II (page 273 in newer Vol. 0)
 
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Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Just a wild one here;

Make the Orgs more relaxed and fun places, like they used to be in Pilot's day (he said people used to pop in to NY Org after work just to hang out even when they weren't doing any courses or auditing cycles; there was also a piano there where people could play music after the close of day.)

Leonard Cohen even wrote one of his songs in NY Org. Can you imagine THAT (or anything similar) now?

Have a kettle permanently on the boil and serve tea and coffee to anyone who's willing to walk in the door, at a nominal price. People can talk if they want, or just sit and soak up the atmosphere. No pressure, no strings.

Sex; don't worry about it or make it a big Ethics issue. Young people (and many older ones too) want to get laid. It's nothing to do with you, or Ethics; just have a condom machine out the back and make sure they don't do it on the premises where others could object or get enturbulated (though if Pilot's any guide, all sorts went on in NY Org!)

This is a personal beef of mine because my silly cow of an Ethics officer once told me I was out-ethics on my 2D right at the very same time as she was having an affair with someone else who was on staff at the same org. Talk about double standards (she was married btw).
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Looking at it again, to have ONE organisation is impractical. Putting all of Hubbard's materials in the public domain would be a necessity whatever else is done.

But look at the current tech situation in the Freezone, especially with regard to other tech. Different people have different ideas. Would I abandon my own researched procedures that work wonderfully? No way! Should others adopt such procedures and integrate them into their tech repetoires? Of course, because they work wonderfully. Would others adopt them? Except at the point of a knife, generally it would seem not.

What about other techs? What about Zivorad's stuff? What about Alan's stuff? What about Ralph's Revenius stuff, or other procedures he develops if free to do so? In some ideal scene, one could maybe imagine a tech R&D unit, but it sure as hell didn't work in the CofS, not even when Hubbard did it per Alan's write-ups here of how Hubbard discarded workable tech for political reasons not technical ones.

Policy review would be essential. There are some things that are easy to decide to keep (I'm not talking about nuke-it-all critics here), some things easy to dump, but there's a lot in the middle that some would want to keep and some to trash.

One huge factor is that the name "Scientology" sucks. I really don't see it ever not sucking now, even if the CofS got disbanded after paying off all the wronged people.

The only way I could see it working would be:

1. Put Hubbard's materials legally into the public domain (they're pretty much generally available already, just not legally).

2. Let people form their own groups and use the materials as they wish, build on them, pick and choose what they want to use. The top management in that group sets which tech and policies to use, just like in any other group on the planet.

3. The public goes where they wish. There isn't one monolithic "official" organisation they have to support. Let the market decide.

4. Let people rename things as they wish to remove the taint of the CofS from it all.

Paul
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
I am a Freezoner in the sense that I sometimes wear pants with no underwear.

No. Even if David Miscavige were put in jail, I would not go back.

I have graduated from Scientology.

Would you go back to kindergarten?

Love your answer, Alanzo.

We call it commando at our house - no undies under the pants thing.

I wouldn't mind going back to kindergarten for the finger painting and nap time. LOL!!! Well, I'm still doing the nap time thing. Maybe I should buy some finger paints. I also want recess again. Every time I see those jungle jim sets, I wish I had a toddler so I would have an excuse to have one in my back yard. I'm such a kid at heart. LOL!!!
 

FinallyFree

Gold Meritorious Patron
Imnotsupposetobehere: Well said:
I wouldn't call DM a DB. Why do you think the person holding this position would have to be a DB? I know you are new to scientology, but do you know the difference between a DB and a SP? You can be one without being the other.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
A couple more ideas;

End the notion that only LRH's books can be sold in the Orgs, or that his books can only be sold through the orgs.

Ruth Minshull's excellent books should be republished tout de suite and sold in the orgs at a reasonable price. Other, similarly competent authors (if they exist) ought to be allowed to write basic books explaining the principles of the Tech to newbies.

Also quit obliging people to leave their name, address and other contact details when they buy a book, tape etc.

No more harassment from regs, ever. No to promo material means no now, next week and into the future.

Expand the mission network but at the same cut it free from the orgs. Field and mission auditors ought to be allowed to charge what they like (if anything), and it shouldn't be an overt to be doing, say, yoga at the same time as you're doing a training cycle (as distinct from an auditing cycle, where other considerations apply). Pretty much all of us mix practices nowadays, it's a fact of life.

When you start an auditing cycle, both the auditor and the C/S should make a commitment to the PC never to stir up a batch of your charge that you'll have to pay extra for, over and above what you'd originally budgeted and agreed to spend. I've heard stories of horrendous abuses along these lines, from people who went to Flag for NOTS V auditing in particular.
 
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Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
MY REQUIREMENTS

Here are a quick "dirty dozen" points that come to mind, but for sure there
would be many more after a searching analysis:

1> The Sea Org, originally coming from some LRH aberration, should be disbanded. No ranks, no uniforms - just name and job title badges and wear
your own style clothes. NO ORDERS without ARC and agreement.
To paraphrase Ron: Any Executive who does not use ARC with his staff should be shot!

2> No enforced recruiting. No one under 20 years old recruited by rule.

3> All recruits to have immediate time to train daily as auditors and plenty of
time to co-audit up the Bridge to OT-3 as Ron originally required for the S.O.
This would handle the disease of current Downtone staff !

4> Maximum 50 hour on the job work week. Decent paid vacations and one full day off per week. More for upstat rewards.
Minimum wage to staff so they can have some havingness.
Nice quarters with 3 max in one room.

5> Restitution of those ripped off by enforced out-tech and ethics
enforcements. Church goes Bankrupt on this, that is OK.

6> Prices set freely by the market place of the Freezone and other independents.
No "gang-bang" regging.

7> No Fair Game.
No Disconnection except by personal voluntary choice as needed.

8> No licensing of Missions or groups and no requirement to use Scientology or any other word as part of their title. These groups would sink or swim only on the basis of their results and reputation.

9> No punitive ethics or hate-type justice.

10> A hatting course on the essence of PTS/SP tech and how the Integrity was allowed to be squashed in the Church. This course would be encouraged to be done at a low price, like $100, but not enforced.

11> A general amnesty to be declared which would particularly target those
declared by DM and some amends done for them (nothing could fully resolve the situation as amends) such as a free auditing training course of their choice.

12> I agree with Cat's Squirrel that Sex from a consensual basis should be
left alone, and I hasten to add that I'm told that Ron wrote essentially the same thing in some revised Ethics Policies in 1972. I will ask that source to produce that for us.


It is not likely I'd ever return to the Church regardless, as there is not enough time to repair the fantastic accumulation of insanities perpetrated mostly by DM, but for which some basis was established by some of Ron's insane policies and particularly his behavior that DM copied only all of the negative aspects of, and then proceeded to amplify them to the extreme !!! (angry)

DM has accomplished the job he set out to do in destroying the organization.
You can step down now, DM, and collect your secret medals from the RTC, CST, & IRS.
 
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