Questions Idenics Will Not Answer

[I Am Not I]

I have answered several of what I thought were your sincere questions fully, truthfully and honestly over the last year and a half in this thread.?

Answer this-


Can we see documented evidence of the 95% success rate Mike Goldstein crowed about? Of course, we'll need a clear, unambiguous definition of what precisely success means.


Has idenics ever gotten rid of the intrusive thoughts/voices of a schizophrenic sufferer?


Can we have a PRECISE list of the kinds of psychiatric disorders idenics has been successfully used for? Afterall, if it is "light years" beyond any other therapy, as you said, then there should be a cornucopia of cases you can reference.*


Or are you saying it hasn't been used on psychiatric disorders? In which case, i have to wonder how you can say it's light years beyond all other therapies?


I await your answers to these precise questions, without obfuscations or side issues or ad hominems.


*"Idenics just happens to be light years ahead of traditional therapy systems. Instead of it taking months and years to address and resolve unwanted conditions for good (not just dealing or coping with them as is often the case with traditional therapy), Idenics can help resolve an issue in as little as one or just a few sessions. Since it’s so far ahead of the competition, there’s nothing wrong with a practitioner charging whatever he or she feels his or her time is worth. "

 

[Balthasar]

Answer this-


Can we see documented evidence of the 95% success rate Mike Goldstein crowed about? Of course, we'll need a clear, unambiguous definition of what precisely success means.


Has idenics ever gotten rid of the intrusive thoughts/voices of a schizophrenic sufferer?


Can we have a PRECISE list of the kinds of psychiatric disorders idenics has been successfully used for? Afterall, if it is "light years" beyond any other therapy, as you said, then there should be a cornucopia of cases you can reference.*


Or are you saying it hasn't been used on psychiatric disorders? In which case, i have to wonder how you can say it's light years beyond all other therapies?


I await your answers to these precise questions, without obfuscations or side issues or ad hominems.


*"Idenics just happens to be light years ahead of traditional therapy systems. Instead of it taking months and years to address and resolve unwanted conditions for good (not just dealing or coping with them as is often the case with traditional therapy), Idenics can help resolve an issue in as little as one or just a few sessions. Since it’s so far ahead of the competition, there’s nothing wrong with a practitioner charging whatever he or she feels his or her time is worth. "

I don't understand why does Idenics monopolizes your attention? Obviously you don't like it. So why don't just leave people in peace who find it useful?

 

[Claire Swazey]

I don't understand why does Idenics monopolizes your attention? Obviously you don't like it. So why don't just leave people in peace who find it useful?

You're on a forum critical of Scn, Hubbard and related subjects and you ask this? Oh, man that's fucking priceless.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Sorry, B. Didn't mean to be so cutting...it's just that critiquing and expressing skepticism are apropos.

 

[I Am Not I]

I don't understand why does Idenics monopolizes your attention? Obviously you don't like it. So why don't just leave people in peace who find it useful?

Someone else coming to this website might ask

"I don't understand why Scientology monopolizes your attention. Obviously you don't like it. So why don't you just leave people in peace who find it useful?"

 

[Take a Look]

Answer this-


Can we see documented evidence of the 95% success rate Mike Goldstein crowed about? Of course, we'll need a clear, unambiguous definition of what precisely success means.


Has idenics ever gotten rid of the intrusive thoughts/voices of a schizophrenic sufferer?


Can we have a PRECISE list of the kinds of psychiatric disorders idenics has been successfully used for? Afterall, if it is "light years" beyond any other therapy, as you said, then there should be a cornucopia of cases you can reference.*


Or are you saying it hasn't been used on psychiatric disorders? In which case, i have to wonder how you can say it's light years beyond all other therapies?


I await your answers to these precise questions, without obfuscations or side issues or ad hominems.


*"Idenics just happens to be light years ahead of traditional therapy systems. Instead of it taking months and years to address and resolve unwanted conditions for good (not just dealing or coping with them as is often the case with traditional therapy), Idenics can help resolve an issue in as little as one or just a few sessions. Since it’s so far ahead of the competition, there’s nothing wrong with a practitioner charging whatever he or she feels his or her time is worth. "

Speaking for myself, the 95% success rate comes from working with actual clients, based on their own direct feedback and commentary. As an example, I have worked with probably over 50 different people since I began using Idenics almost two years ago. A 95% success rate would mean about 47 of those had received a benefit. The feedback I have directly received from them bears this out. As I mentioned on the other thread, I don’t feel some bizarre urge to second guess them or dispute what they’re saying simply because it hasn’t first been cleared by some outside researchers or testers.

How do I define “success”? I don’t. I let the client I work with made that determination. The person comes to me with an issue or problem, e.g. “a case of the blahs”. We have a session or two addressing this, and the person tells me thereafter they no longer have “a case of the blahs”. Success here means the person no longer has their attention stuck with that particular, personal unwanted condition and is free to move on in life. They tell me when it’s no longer an issue. I trust the client to tell me when it’s resolved.

To my knowledge, I haven’t really worked with the insane in Idenics. I have worked with a number of people who did various forms of traditional talk therapy before coming to me. Some mentioned their own types of OCD and at least two mentioned “hearing voices” from time to time. Were these people clinically diagnosed or labeled? I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised since they had done other therapy before coming to me. Besides, it seems like there’s a label for practically anything these days. And in Idenics, we could care less about what someone’s been labeled.

Some of these mentioned taking up with me the exact issue(s) they had unsuccessfully tried to address for quite a while in other therapy forms. They told me they spent a lot of money and time trying to resolve them and the result was they were proscribed drugs after a while. Using Idenics, the issue resolved in just one or a few sessions. Per their own admission. Again, I trust the client to tell me when it’s resolved.

I can only potentially help someone if they come to me of their own volition, with an ability to communicate in some form or fashion, about an issue they’d like to address. I’m not aware of any truly “insane” people who can actually do all that. Also, perhaps you can educate me, but I’m not even aware of any form of therapy that successfully resolves insanity. Not that I’ve spent any credible amount of time researching cures for insanity. The only thing I’m aware of these days that gets proscribed to the insane is psychotropic drugs, and that appears to only help cope with, suppress or numb the person or symptoms; not actually resolve anything. Then again, I have also heard that others have had wonderful benefits using alternative routes such as addressing nutritional deficiencies and detoxing, etc. to relive the “insane” symptoms. But I don’t personally seek out the “insane” because many of them have been physically or brain damaged by whatever shock, drugs or therapy they did receive. At this point, they’re probably beyond any help short of divine intervention.

What I really find amazing about all this is the fact that the only people that are having a problem with Idenics are those who recently are ex-Scientologists who have been fucked over by the church directly or because of the atrocities committed on others. Idenics has been around since 1986, almost 30 years, but there have been no critics in all that time. There have been NO people that we’ve fucked over or bilked out of their money, forced them into disconnection or forced labor, etc. Our only critics are the people mentioned above; or someone doing some other methodology who may consider us their competitors. That’s the sad, but true reality at the moment.

 

[I Am Not I]

I have worked with a number of people who did various forms of traditional talk therapy before coming to me. Some mentioned their own types of OCD and at least two mentioned “hearing voices” from time to time. Were these people clinically diagnosed or labeled? I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised since they had done other therapy before coming to me. Besides, it seems like there’s a label for practically anything these days. And in Idenics, we could care less about what someone’s been labeled.

Some of these mentioned taking up with me the exact issue(s) they had unsuccessfully tried to address for quite a while in other therapy forms. They told me they spent a lot of money and time trying to resolve them and the result was they were proscribed drugs after a while. Using Idenics, the issue resolved in just one or a few sessions. Per their own admission. .

So in 1 or 2 sessions you cured people of hearing voices?

Yeah, that doesn't sound like bullshit or anything.


And no, I'm not an ex-scio person, or someone selling anything.

 

[JustSheila]

So in 1 or 2 sessions you cured people of hearing voices?

Yeah, that doesn't sound like bullshit or anything.


And no, I'm not an ex-scio person, or someone selling anything.

Cured the person of admitting he/she had voices. Most schizophrenics don't admit it. It's quite difficult to get one to do so. Saying the voices are gone is a terrible step backwards and the opportunity to address the issues may be completely gone now. That's fucked.

you do not confront an individual with schizophrenia. Nothing good or productive can come from such a confrontation. With at least half of the people who suffer with schizophrenia, they actually do not know they are ill. They are not denying they are ill to be difficult or cause problems in the family. There have been over 100 scientific studies that show that at least half of people with schizophrenia do not know they are ill. Scientists think that these 50 percent of individuals with schizophrenia who do not know they are ill suffer with anosignosia (lack of insight), a brain defect related to the frontal lobes that makes it impossible for them to recognize their illness. While it can be frustrating to deal with an individual who lacks insight into their illness, know that his is not something that is done deliberately by the individual with schizophrenia. Lack of insight into their illness is thought to be a symptom of the disorder, like delusions are symptoms, or paranoia.

http://psychcentral.com/ask-the-therapist/2007/04/30/how-do-you-confront-a-schizophrenic/

 

[MrNobody]

Cured the person of admitting he/she had voices. Most schizophrenics don't admit it. It's quite difficult to get one to do so. Saying the voices are gone is a terrible step backwards and the opportunity to address the issues may be completely gone now. That's fucked.



http://psychcentral.com/ask-the-therapist/2007/04/30/how-do-you-confront-a-schizophrenic/

From my personal experience, I can say that you're absolutely right with that.

 

[JustSheila]

Thanks, Mr Nobody.

Did you read the Q&A I linked? It's the best advice I've read on dealing with a schizophrenic in years (I deal with one regularly, and it has been quite a struggle).

Over the years, there have been isolated one-off instances, short little splices in time where a true opportunity came up to directly address issues. Rare and short-lived moments of insight on the part of the schizophrenic.

During one of these, the person was able to quit drinking. It would not have been possible three months earlier or three months later. He no longer is capable of connecting drinking behaviour to its consequences, but at least now has the habit of not drinking well established because I acted quickly when the opportunity was there.

Other habits are now impossible. Regularly wrecking and tearing holes in his boots by cleaning them with a metal brush, for example.

There was one short time when he had the insight to tell me he has voices and understood this was not sane, or normal. Unfortunately, by the time he made it to a psychiatrist, he no longer felt that way - no longer connected the voices with his inappropriate and often destructive behaviour.

But he remembers telling me, and that's something (I also have it taped - done with his permission at the time).

But he doesn't have the insight to realise he is ill. That's not his fault - it's part of the illness to deny it.

Schizophrenia is a terrible illness.

 

[Gib]

So in 1 or 2 sessions you cured people of hearing voices?

Yeah, that doesn't sound like bullshit or anything.


And no, I'm not an ex-scio person, or someone selling anything.

But you are selling something. You are selling Idenics is BS.

It's a subtle communication, which is what the COS does.

 

[MrNobody]

Thanks, Mr Nobody.

Did you read the Q&A I linked? It's the best advice I've read on dealing with a schizophrenic in years (I deal with one regularly, and it has been quite a struggle).

Over the years, there have been isolated one-off instances, short little splices in time where a true opportunity came up to directly address issues. Rare and short-lived moments of insight on the part of the schizophrenic.

During one of these, the person was able to quit drinking. It would not have been possible three months earlier or three months later. He no longer is capable of connecting drinking behaviour to its consequences, but at least now has the habit of not drinking well established because I acted quickly when the opportunity was there.

Other habits are now impossible. Regularly wrecking and tearing holes in his boots by cleaning them with a metal brush, for example.

There was one short time when he had the insight to tell me he has voices and understood this was not sane, or normal. Unfortunately, by the time he made it to a psychiatrist, he no longer felt that way - no longer connected the voices with his inappropriate and often destructive behaviour.

But he remembers telling me, and that's something (I also have it taped - done with his permission at the time).

But he doesn't have the insight to realise he is ill. That's not his fault - it's part of the illness to deny it.

Schizophrenia is a terrible illness.

No, I haven't read that link yet. I just grew up with all kinds of physical and/or mental issues - not that I had them, but that I saw them.

My father was boss of the woodworking department in an institution for handicapped people and he never tried to hide his work from me, so I learned about schizophrenia, downs syndrome, epilepsy, and many other issues before I even went to kindergarten.

I've never actively studied any mental health related
topics, I just picked up some information by being there and trying to understand.

About 20 years ago or so, some mentally ill people founded their own club, and I've been invited a few times. Not because I was one of them, I was invited because I was not one of 'em. They founded this club to keep connected to the "normal" part of society.

During my 3 years of job rehab, I've lived with literally thousands of people and everyone was handicapped in one way or another. Most of us were physically handicapped (from severe work accidents, severe diseases etc.) but there were a few mental cases of different sorts among us as well.

What I've learned in life so far: Everybody is handicapped in one way or another and there are no exceptions. The only difference: Some handicaps are more noticable than others.

That's why I sometimes find certain conversations between people who think they're normal so amusing.

 

[JustSheila]

That's really cool, MrNobody.

I thought it was particularly interesting that you were invited to that group because you didn't suffer the same problems. It's insightful and healthy for them to always stay in touch with others' views apart from their own. How wonderful would it be if every group didn't feel threatened by different views?

Yeh, everybody has their problems and shortcomings.

 

[I Am Not I]

But you are selling something. You are selling Idenics is BS.

It's a subtle communication, which is what the COS does.

Hilarious. I was responding to the post implying I was either an ex-member of the cult or had a competing service. Neither of which comport with reality.

Anyway, it's hardly subtle at all. lol

Thing is, I think the claims made for idenics (which are verging on legally fraudulent, as relates to mental illness) , the lack of transparency, and the fees are bullshit.

If it was marketed as some sort of life coaching or personal enhancement thing for less money, I wouldn't even remark about it.

The ham-fisted responses to my posts are pretty poor evidence for its benefits anyway.

 

[Gib]

Hilarious. I was responding to the post implying I was either an ex-member of the cult or had a competing service. Neither of which comport with reality.

Anyway, it's hardly subtle at all. lol

Thing is, I think the claims made for idenics (which are verging on legally fraudulent, as relates to mental illness) , the lack of transparency, and the fees are bullshit.

If it was marketed as some sort of life coaching or personal enhancement thing for less money, I wouldn't even remark about it.

The ham-fisted responses to my posts are pretty poor evidence for its benefits anyway.

so what is your price point that you would consider acceptable?

There is first a free session. And no hard sell to continue. :confused2:

I bought two hours worth, and have used one hour. This was two years ago. I have never received a email or phone call or letter from Mike since then.

 

[JustSheila]

Thing is, I think the claims made for idenics (which are verging on legally fraudulent, as relates to mental illness) , the lack of transparency, and the fees are bullshit.

If it was marketed as some sort of life coaching or personal enhancement thing for less money, I wouldn't even remark about it.

The ham-fisted responses to my posts are pretty poor evidence for its benefits anyway.

You're definitely not subtle.

Scientologists, and a good number of exScientologists, still view all mental illness as psychosomatic or due to injury or psychiatric abuse and drugging. I used to think that way, too.

Certainly there is some truth to that.

But IMHO, mostly, it's just not true. There are mental illnesses with a genetic or physical basis, cognitive illnesses for which they are still searching for a medical cause, sets of mental handicaps and both genetic and environmental influences that trigger those handicaps.

The majority of the population has not seen the behaviour of such people when they are off their medications and many make the false assumption that the medications in some way caused the conditions, or, because they don't appear to be badly off while medicated, that they're really just fine and with the right therapy, can go without it.

In most cases, today's medications just eases the effects of the mental illnesses to make it possible for them to live at all, not the other way around.

Narconon has had a good number of deaths from the false Hubbard assumption that nearly all illness is psychosomatic and putting people at risk by taking people off their meds.

I don't like at all when Idenics or any other talk therapy make outrageous claims of curing these illnesses. It misleads people and puts them at risk. It is all based on the false assumption that Hubbard promoted that this is all psychosomatic and the only true mental illnesses were caused by psychiatry.

Sure, this might be true for a small percentage of people who are mildly medicated, but not for the majority. Not that I've seen.

I'd be horrified at the idea of taking meds away from anyone with Cerebral Palsy, dementia, depression, schizophrenia, or any of a wide variety of mental illnesses or handicaps. I've seen plenty of people off their meds and it's a very bad thing. Those I've seen are not suffering from any psychosomatic illness that gets cured from any sort of mental therapy.

I've also seen abuse and overkill of psychiatric drugs that worsened a person's condition, but these were the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Gib]

You're definitely not subtle.

Scientologists, and a good number of exScientologists, still view all mental illness as psychosomatic or due to injury or psychiatric abuse and drugging. I used to think that way, too.

Certainly there is some truth to that.

But IMHO, mostly, it's just not true. There are mental illnesses with a genetic or physical basis, cognitive illnesses for which they are still searching for a medical cause, sets of mental handicaps and both genetic and environmental influences that trigger those handicaps.

The majority of the population has not seen the behaviour of such people when they are off their medications and many make the false assumption that the medications in some way caused the conditions, or, because they don't appear to be badly off while medicated, that they're really just fine and with the right therapy, can go without it.

In most cases, today's medications just eases the effects of the mental illnesses to make it possible for them to live at all, not the other way around.

Narconon has had a good number of deaths from the false Hubbard assumption that nearly all illness is psychosomatic and putting people at risk by taking people off their meds.

I don't like at all when Idenics or any other talk therapy make outrageous claims of curing these illnesses

. It misleads people and puts them at risk. It is all based on the false assumption that Hubbard promoted that this is all psychosomatic and the only true mental illnesses were caused by psychiatry.

Sure, this might be true for a small percentage of people who are mildly medicated, but not for the majority. Not that I've seen.

I'd be horrified at the idea of taking meds away from anyone with Cerebral Palsy, dementia, depression, schizophrenia, or any of a wide variety of mental illnesses or handicaps. I've seen plenty of people off their meds and it's a very bad thing. Those I've seen are not suffering from any psychosomatic illness that gets cured from any sort of mental therapy.

I've also seen abuse and overkill of psychiatric drugs that worsened a person's condition, but these were the exception rather than the rule.

You need to do your homework, Idenics never made such claims.

 

[JustSheila]

You need to do your homework, Idenics never made such claims.

Take a Look says some very dangerous things and makes outrageous claims, too, not even bothering to ascertain whether a person had been clinically diagnosed before coming to Idenics. That is extremely irreponsible and dangerous.

Speaking for myself, the 95% success rate comes from working with actual clients, based on their own direct feedback and commentary. As an example, I have worked with probably over 50 different people since I began using Idenics almost two years ago. A 95% success rate would mean about 47 of those had received a benefit. The feedback I have directly received from them bears this out. As I mentioned on the other thread, I don’t feel some bizarre urge to second guess them or dispute what they’re saying simply because it hasn’t first been cleared by some outside researchers or testers.
<snipped>
To my knowledge, I haven’t really worked with the insane in Idenics. I have worked with a number of people who did various forms of traditional talk therapy before coming to me. Some mentioned their own types of OCD and at least two mentioned “hearing voices” from time to time. Were these people clinically diagnosed or labeled? I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised since they had done other therapy before coming to me. Besides, it seems like there’s a label for practically anything these days. And in Idenics, we could care less about what someone’s been labeled.

The rest of Idenics has to be bought or a "sample session", so what's to research?

I know you like it, Gib, but then, to the best of my knowledge, you do not - and never have - suffered from a mental illness or incapacity. The promotion of it is annoying enough, but promoting as a cure to people who may have an actual mental illness and promoting that he "could care less about what someone's been labeled" is completely irresponsible and borderline fraud.

 

[Gib]

Take a Look says some very dangerous things and makes outrageous claims, too, not even bothering to ascertain whether a person had been clinically diagnosed before coming to Idenics. That is extremely irreponsible and dangerous.



The rest of Idenics has to be bought or a "sample session", so what's to research?

I know you like it, Gib, but then, to the best of my knowledge, you do not - and never have - suffered from a mental illness or incapacity. The promotion of it is annoying enough, but promoting as a cure to people who may have an actual mental illness and promoting that he "could care less about what someone's been labeled" is completely irresponsible and borderline fraud.

I only had three sessions, and read the book and the series.

Idenics does not broadly promote. I also have no vested interest in it.

It's not in the same profession you are in, nor claim to be.

 

[MrNobody]

That's really cool, MrNobody.

I thought it was particularly interesting that you were invited to that group because you didn't suffer the same problems. It's insightful and healthy for them to always stay in touch with others' views apart from their own. How wonderful would it be if every group didn't feel threatened by different views?

Yeh, everybody has their problems and shortcomings.

"Everybody has their problems and shortcomings."

I just realized I practically was born with that realization. I was born approximately at the same time as the "Contergan generation". I'm too tired to google the English name, but Contergan should give you some usable results.

Some of the Contergan kids were terribly disfigured - no hands, no arms, just 3 "fingers" sticking out of their shoulders, etc. The 100 or so that I've met in kindergarten, school work, were damn sane, compared to the "normal" people you'd find in your local shopping mall or pub or wherever.

But then, sanity was pretty much their only way to remain sane, wasn't it? They never had a normal body they could rely on. Know what I mean?

Anyway, now that they've gone more or less extinct, it'd be pointless, but I'd really like to see a study about mental illnesses among Contergan kids.