Scientology is all bad

[Smilla]

The question of whether Scientology/Dianetics works or not isn't, very useful.

"Does it do anything, and if it does do something, what does it do?" is more useful...

 

[Infinite]

I've run out similar things on myself and others, and have seen such phrases come up. And the person has felt better and no longer "hates all men" or whatever the phrase was telling them to do.

No. Not a "success story". Logic. Evidence.

While thinking about all this, I am realizing how evil OTIII is.. imagine the confusion of the File Clerk if I INSISTED someone run out an incident where they were eaten alive by gophers.. and they felt they HAD TO.. poor File Clerk would get very confused indeed. I believe Ron deliberately devised OTIII as a Trap - something that would make people very crazy, and I think OTIII DID make people crazy.

OTIII is the intended destination . . . Dianetics is the runway. Which is more evil?

 

[Smilla]

The Core beliefs of a Fundamentalist Scientologist.

1. Belief in the infallibility or - near-infallability of Hubbard, or the fictional person, 'LRH.'
2. Belief in a Hubbard - devised 'Standard Tech.'
3. Belief in the thought-stopping dictat of KSW.
4. Belief that the states of Clear and OT - as defined by Hubbard, can be achieved through the application of Scientology.

Anyone who has those firmly in place could be described as a Fundamentalist Scientologist.

The Cof $, Freezone, and Independents, though in some senses separate entities, make up the Cult of Hubbard.

 

[Infinite]

The Core beliefs of a Fundamentalist Scientologist.

1. Belief in the infallibility or - near-infallability of Hubbard, or the fictional person, 'LRH.'
2. Belief in a Hubbard - devised 'Standard Tech.'
3. Belief in the thought-stopping dictat of KSW.
4. Belief that the states of Clear and OT - as defined by Hubbard, can be achieved through the application of Scientology.

Anyone who has those firmly in place could be described as a Fundamentalist Scientologist.

The Cof $, Freezone, and Independents, though in some senses separate entities, make up the Cult of Hubbard.

5. Belief that only Scientologists can understand Scientology.

 

[Smilla]

5. Belief that only Scientologists can understand Scientology.

Thanks - added

 

[Smilla]

The Core beliefs of a Fundamentalist Scientologist.

1. Belief in the infallibility or - near-infallability of Hubbard, or the fictional person, 'LRH.'
2. Belief in a Hubbard - devised 'Standard Tech.'
3. Belief in the thought-stopping dictat of KSW.
4. Belief that the states of Clear and OT - as defined by Hubbard, can be achieved through the application of Scientology.
5. The belief that only Scientologists can understand Scientology.

Anyone who has those firmly in place could be described as a Fundamentalist Scientologist.

The Cof $, Freezone, and Independents, though in some senses separate entities, make up the Cult of Hubbard.

..

 

[Infinite]

Thanks - added

I should probably qualify it:

Belief that only in-good-standing Scientologists can understand Scientology

; )

 

[Smilla]

I should probably qualify it:

Belief that only in-good-standing Scientologists can understand Scientology

; )

They're extinct. The nearest thing still in existance is Ethics Bait.

Even the the upstats are downstat now.

 

[Dilpickle]

Hmm.. well if I BELIEVE I am now not afraid of Men or afraid of Heights or afraid to speak to strangers, then something happened. Maybe it's all in my head, but dang, I do feel better I'm all for any of you feeling better by any action you take.. but do you REALLY feel better, or are you all imagining it? LOL Heck if I know

 

[Smilla]

There's nothing wrong with belief. People can believe whatever they like - even in very narrow and restricting things like Scientology. Lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VawhGe79Emw

 

[Demented LRH]

I really don't want to read the whole write-up.. I'm just saying that in order to do a True Experiment, they would have had to knock a woman unconscious, rape her, and keep saying something like "ALL MEN ARE BAD" over and over.. I can GUARANTEE you that if someone did that, and you later ran out the incident, the person's file clerk would cough up that phrase, if you asked for a phrase. These days, in Dianetics, no phrases are asked for. PS: I am not advocating that anyone actually RUNS that kind of an experiment.

Why would anyone accept your guarantee? You have not run such experiment, so you know nothing about its outcome. Hubbard expected the whole world to accept his guarantees that Dianetics works, which was a thought worthy of a retard.

 

[Infinite]

Hmm.. well if I BELIEVE I am now not afraid of Men or afraid of Heights or afraid to speak to strangers, then something happened. Maybe it's all in my head, but dang, I do feel better I'm all for any of you feeling better by any action you take.. but do you REALLY feel better, or are you all imagining it? LOL Heck if I know

You are feeling sleepy, going deeper and deeper into sleep, it is the most wonderful sleep you have ever had, deeper and deeper and deeper . . . you will send Infinite BLiP $100 a week for the rest of your life . . . slowly, waking now, stretching out, wide awake . . . there, isn't that better?

 

[Demented LRH]

Part I -- material wins.
​

Material win is a win confirmed by empirical data.

1. Hubbard claimed that Dianetics can cure high blood pressure, which is caused by certain engrams.

To prove this assertion, one would have to measure a PC's blood pressure before and after auditing sessions and see if it had reached a normal level.
Is there experimental data proving Hubbard's assertion? I do not think so, but I might be wrong. I am waiting for a confirmation. In absence of a confirmation I would have to conclude that the "high blood pressure engrams" do not exist.

2. Hubbard claimed that Dianetics can cure kidney disease.
Kidney disease is characterized by the presence of certain chemicals in the blood and urine. These chemicals should become undetectable after Dianetics auditing. Where is empirical data showing that the blood and urine become normal after Dianetics auditing? Hubbard did not bother to produce such data. What about his followers -- do they have any data showing that Dianetics can cure Kidney disease?

3. Hubbard claimed that certain engrams cause dwarfism. If this were true, the Scienology dwarfs, including Miscavige, would have been of an average human size by now. But they are still very short.

4. Gigantism is also caused by the wicked engrams. I would love to see a gigantic PC shrinking to a normal size after being declared a Clear.

Bill used to have infrequent but severe headaches after the car accident, he thought that Dianetics auditing could cure him. Bill described to me the car accident in vivid details, he was feeling fine when he was talking about his misfortune. Then came auditing session. The auditor was my friend, she allowed me to watch the session. Bill grabbed the cans and the procedure begun.

"Recall the time of the accident", said that auditor. As soon as she finished talking Bill begun feeling excriciating pain. He knew that the pain was supposed to come during the session. He convinced himself that the auditing is going to be very painful because he was told so.

The session was a tremendous win for Bill because in the end of it the pain was gone, he felt liberated. After that Bill had a series of magnificent win and finally was declared Clear, which was his biggest win. Life was wonderful, Bills facsination with Scientology grew immensely.

Then the headaches returned. Bill cursed LRH and left CoS for good.

 

[Gadfly]

Hmm.. well if I BELIEVE I am now not afraid of Men or afraid of Heights or afraid to speak to strangers, then something happened. Maybe it's all in my head, but dang, I do feel better I'm all for any of you feeling better by any action you take.. but do you REALLY feel better, or are you all imagining it? COL Heck if I know

You are right - something happened! It did.

Exactly WHAT happened and WHY though is entirely something else.

Just to let you know, hypnosis and self-hypnosis often do "work". For good things. For very good things. Hypnosis can also be used to trick and control people. Implanting using drugs (along the lines of CIA mind experiments to create the "perfect spy") is a form of nasty hypnosis.

The entire, and very detailed, subject of New Age visualization techniques, and earlier forms of "magic" (which derive from eastern philosophy and practices), involve actions that a person takes to CHANGE ones own considerations and agreements. These various practices may not use these exact terms, but THAT is exactly what they do.

Such techniques involve a form of self-hypnosis, where a person strives to influence what he or she holds as true, at the deepest subconscious levels, so that by doing so he or she comes to experience a different and better version of reality more in alignment with what he or she desires/wishes.

Hubbard knew all about such techniques. He was a master hypnotist (as a historical fact). He also knew about visualization and affirmation techniques, being familiar with "magic". I LIKE all of this stuff, including Crowley and magick.

One needs to understand that with many forms of magick and self-hypnosis YOU choose what you want to come to eventually agree with. And you take appropriate mental and imaginative actions to bring such about by changing at the deepest levels what you "accept as true". This sort of "occult" stuff has been around for a very long time. I have had an avid interest in such things since I was in high school. I had read and experimented a great deal along these lines. Probably upwards near a thousand or so books.

A major problem with Scientology is that Hubbard feeds participants a whole convoluted set of agreements and considerations, and he never TELLS YOU that he is tricking you into accepting an entire framework of new considerations and agreements about all sorts of things. Yes, some of that can "work". But, what is actually working is the IMAGINATIVE USE of your own mind as a form of self-hypnosis. Again, THAT is NOT necessarily a "bad thing".

To grasp any of this one needs to get more than a little familiar with the subjects of hypnosis, visualization, affirmations, modern counseling methods, modern psychological theories, and their relationship to the subjects and history of eastern philosophy, eastern practices, western magic, the Rosicrucians, Theosophy, Science of Mind, Unity Church, the Golden Dawn, Crowley's O.T.O., New Age ideas and other related fields.

The thing is that MANY practices can make a person feel better and even BE BETTER.

The human mind, directed along certain lines and channels, does effect the body and life. The mind, emotions, body and spirit ARE interconnected and do affect each other. How exactly though is currently still anyone's guess - though many will and do claim that he or she has the REAL ANSWERS (such as Hubbard and Scientology).

Most people only go down one small creek of what is actually a very large network of lakes and rivers (metaphor). Most people, having only gotten interested and involved in one tiny segment fail to ever see or grasp the LARGER PICTURE (of which Scientology is only a small part). Of course, Hubbard took great care to present and enforce HIS subject of Scientology as the "true basis of all knowledge and understanding". It's not. It only pretends to be.

Hubbard would like his followers to accept and believe that "if anything works relating to the mind, then it must be some form of Scientology". THAT is BULLSHIT! That was just another of Hubbard's many fictions.

Some aspects of Scientology do surely get "results". Some even get very desirable results. But it often isn't working in the ways that Hubbard explains it to be working.

OT III is largely an exercise in guided meditation or guided visualization where one is given the scenario to IMAGINE, and then sets out to imagine various situations and events accordingly.

In a sense OT III is not unlike Kundalini Yoga where one first gets familiar with the ideas of the chakras, and then imagines various energies along the spinal column through mental concentration and the practiced directing of ones attention. It all "works" to some degree.

Scientology "creative processing" is VISUALIZATION under another name.

Hubbard HIDES all of this from his followers. Few people notice or are aware of what I just described because most people are NOT especially familiar with all of these various fields and subjects. I am. But don't believe me because I say so. If you truly care, then get familiar with all of these subjects. It will take TIME. One cannot learn about all of these things overnight, as there is much to each of them.

There IS a great power to the human imagination. It is not well understood by modern "science". Hubbard USED such a power to trick, deceive, mislead and entrap his followers.

What is one to do? :confused2:

 

[Demented LRH]

• Part II -- spiritual wins.

Spiritual win is a win that cannot be confirmed by empirical data.

David was a Scientologist who believed that the OT data should not be made public because it is very dangerous to one's heath. He took LRH's warning about premature reading of the OT III data very seriously.

David was also a very curious individual. He could not resist a temptation of reading the Xenu story presented in the book Messaih or Madman (I gave that book to him).

David was feeling sick, he slumped in the chair, his face became pale, he was breathing heavily. "You should not have given this book to me", he said. "It's all in your head. You convinced yourself that this shit is dangerous, and now you are suffering because of that", I said. The result of my remark was amazing -- it took David only 5 seconds to fully recover, he read the rest of the story without further ill effects. That was David's last day as a Scientologist.

All wins that come as the result of Dianetics and Scientology auditing sessions are nothing more than a placebo effect -- people who undergo auditing convinced themselves that they will be feeling great in the end of each session.

But this auditing effect is also short-lived; like drug addicts, they got hooked up on the auditing, and became dependent on it.

Wieber has a first-hand knowledge of these auditing addictions, he described them in his OCMB threads.

 

[shadow]

I propose that either you or Demented LRH volunteer for a *real* Engramic Experience experiment; we could set up video recording with audio, then hit one of you repeatedly in the head until you go unconscious.

When you get out of hospital we could try to audit it out with Dianetics and see how well the "engram" content uncovered matches the video recording. That'd be a very satisfactory experiment, IMO, regardless of the outcome.

Late to the party, but this human study will never get IRB approval because it not only has great risk for harm, but an SAE (severe adverse event) is actually required to occur (injury severe enough for hospitalization) during the normal course of the study. IRBs are not supposed to approve studies that are not scientifically sound, have no rational basis, and where the risk is unacceptable in the face of such a crappy study, despite your personal satisfaction.

This is all sarcasm. And I am making this disclaimer because sarcasm generally does not come across too well in the written form-much better in person with the voice inflection.

 

[secretiveoldfag]

Not sure if this replies to OP or not but I came up with a different proposition.

Whatever the problem, Scientology is always the wrong answer.

There are better, cheaper, healthier, safer, more effective ways of doing everything it promises to do.

 

[Infinite]

. . . <snip to just one of several interesting points> . . . A major problem with Scientology is that Hubbard feeds participants a whole convoluted set of agreements and considerations, and he never TELLS YOU that he is tricking you into accepting an entire framework of new considerations and agreements about all sorts of things. Yes, some of that can "work". But, what is actually working is the IMAGINATIVE USE of your own mind as a form of self-hypnosis. Again, THAT is NOT necessarily a "bad thing" . . . <snip> . . .

Yep, all true, except I don't really know about the Yoga stuff. What struck me with this point is that L Ron Hubbard certainly never tells anyone they are being manipulated into his convulted sets of agreement and considerations, but he does tell people to be aware such trickery. Its masterful. Listening to just a few of his lectures and you can hear him say "the only way to control people is to lie to them" and then he promptly lies to them. Very clever. I guess, sometimes, the best place to hide is right up there on stage.

 

[Dilpickle]

What if Scientology Tech was all GOOD.. which I don't believe, but let us PRETEND for a moment that it is all good. And what if the Churches were run ALL BAD? Or mostly bad? For starters.. here is what might/could go wrong when a new person plunks down $1200 for whatever amount of auditing that might buy..

1. He is TIRED because he doesn't usually have an extra $1200, and had to get a 2nd job to make it, and had to eat a few dinners of rice and beans, etc.. so he is really not sessionable.

2. His auditor works 12 hours a day for very little pay, and is ALSO tired and not well fed. Who KNOWS he has to get his STATS UP or he might end up in Ethics, Retraining, or the RPF

3. The CS: DITTO

4. The Course Sup who passed the auditor and CS on their training - DITTO

5. The Examiner who checks you out to see if you really had a win - DITTO

6. The Keeper of the Stats.. whoever that is... who continually PUSHES everyone to work harder, longer hours, get more folks completed on whatever, etc.. He too is overworked and probably tired and hungry and doesn't want to end up in Ethics..

7. The Ethics Officer who is supposed to handle all this.. or the RPF workers.. or the Qual Secs.. ALL DITTO - all overworked and threatened that if stats are not up, LRH will not be pleased.. we DO need to Clear the Planet, after all.

Which leads me to the conclusion.. WHY IN HELL CAN'T STAFF AND SEA ORG Have enough money to live and enough time to rest, and not be pressured into False Completions in order to NOT BE PUNISHED in some way? Here's this poor auditor on the Apollo - probably auditing 10 or 12 hours per day, and worried if he makes an error, over the side of the ship he goes..
Even if Scientology was PERFECT, which I believe it IS NOT.. how on earth can any organization succeed under such conditions? And as far as having the goal to help THE WORLD - EVERYONE - that is ridiculous - not everyone wants help - they are happy to be doing just what they are doing.

Of all the people I have given sessions.. there were actually a few who were willing to pay me just to insult me.. just sat there staring at me and flinging insults almost as soon as they picked up the cans. Others.. one particularly devious one.. turns out what he wanted was to blow charge on his overts, kind of like a Catholic confessional, so that he could go out and little by little commit BIGGER ones.. it was his way of becoming an SP I suppose.. as soon as I realized that, I stopped giving him sessions. The majority of people are very well intentioned and happy to be there and co-operate..

Another problem with Huge Organizations.. if it becomes obvious that they are producing fantastic results, and people are becoming smarter, more aware, happier, healthier, etc. etc. Lots of promotion and advertising, etc.. there are always SP's that get wind of it, and make it their mission to join up incognito and screw it up.

If anyone ever REALLY makes a Bridge to Happy Healthy Human Being plus Happy Healthy Spirit, I think they would do best to keep it quiet, and let it spread word of mouth, and not put up big banners and advertise it.. Just form many many many small groups that will each get 20 or 30 people involved, and teach others to start their own small groups, etc.. in order to spread it around. Most of us could handle 20 people.. most of us could NOT handle that big blue building in Hollywood. Dilpickle

 

[Smilla]

Try describing things without using Hubbard's terminology for a day.