Scientology is all bad

[Gadfly]

Prior to OTIII, no one is asked to believe in past lives.

I don' think that is true. I was asked/required to accept the notion of past lives.

Early on in my dianetic auditing I was given the "past life remedy" because I wasn't going whole track, and a very BASIC part of the theory of dianetics is 1) that one MUST contact the basic on the chain to blow the charge, and 2) that most of these basic incidents are BEFORE this life.

So, my auditor had me run "imaginary incidents". Within an hour, I blew out on ONE, and "realized" that DAMN, IT WAS REAL - I had been an Indian in an Indian village, and just like Hendrix said in the song Castle's Made of Sand - surprise attack killed him in his sleep that night . . . . . :confused2:

After that I was happily running past life incidents on EVERY chain. In fact to save time and money I DECIDED early on that I would get to the earliest and most basic incident as quickly as possible! I was quite aware that I had made THAT decision.

Now, I did MANY hundreds of hours of dianetics, most of it on the Dianetics Drug R/D. :confused2:

Maybe is was all imaginary, but I DID have lots of fun!

And, I had many key-outs and blow outs along the way . . . .

I maintain that people can and should be able to do WHATEVER THE HELL they want to do with their own minds and money.

I also maintain that 90% or more of the problems with Scientology are the GREEN VOLUMES insanity or HOW TO EXPAND SCIENTOLOGY. If there were NONE of that, I couldn't give a crap if people wanted to and did audit all the way to OT VII and beyond.

Much of life IS subjective. Much of it IS "make-believe". Nobody will EVER be able to take away and deny people their delusions and fantasies. People often believe really crazy shit. That is just the way things are.

Just stop the institutionalized abuse of the organized Church of Scientology.

 

[Veda]

Nah. It is a therapy. Just not an accredited one.

Not all auditing is metered. Prior to OTIII, no one is asked to believe in past lives.

A small sampling:


1) From the 1952 'History of Man' ["This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last 60 trillion years"] by L. Ron Hubbard, early 1952, originally titled 'What to Audit':


2) From old timer John Sanborn, speaking of the 1950s:

"In a Phoenix Congress... he talked about spooky whole track stuff. He had a floodlight on the floor in front of this little platform shining up, because that makes you look ghouly. And his face looked really weird and outer space and really crazy... and he talked weird... I think he was trying to drive people a little bit wacko so they'd fall into his hand a little bit."


3) From the lecture "Auditing Comm Cycles" 06 Aug 1963:

"Now, I'll give you an idea - an idea of this. For instance, I know - I know where I was and who I was, and know with good certainty, who I was and where I was in the last eighty trillion years. See, I know that; that's not much of an argument with me. But the small details of that are liable to go fritter-fritter here and there. You know, what did I have for breakfast two trillion years ago? No. Nix, man. Nah. Did I even eat, you see? That sort of thing is getting pretty dim."


4) The "Dianetic Past Life Remedy" (1970s Dianetics) goes, "What attitudes would make one unwilling to go earlier than this life?

"You get the best reading item, check for interest and run the item R3R. You re-access, check for interest and R3R. Continue to reassess and add to the list until the list is exhausted.

"Repeat the steps listing (separately and in this order) for emotions, sensations and pains that 'would make one unwilling to go earlier than this life'.

"Somewhere along the line, the pc will go earlier than this life."


5) From OT 2:

"Many persons experience unreality at the start of [whole track implant] GPM running; this leaves when you see the meter reads."

....

"They are implant incidents...

"Trillions, 20,095.

"Hot Cold.

"This is a pole with a split in it. The back split is hot, the front is cold. Two temperatures. Duration is 1 [and] 1/8th seconds...

"Dance Mob.

"Trillions, 18,992.

"This duration is 7/8 of a second. There is a pole that pulls one in. One is caught in the pole."

And a little more:

"230 trillions.

"This seeks to install...

"Implanter X... Target X," etc. [Shows diagram of implant], etc.

 

[Lermanet_com]

E-meters were required to carry a warning message by the FDA, cigarettes do, and posts like this should require a similar warning message like:

Nah. It is a therapy. Just not an accredited one.

Not all auditing is metered. Prior to OTIII, no one is asked to believe in past lives.
And, yes, furthering or encouraging someone in a delusion does lead to creation of that and future ones.

"British Parliament, 1968:
Mr. St. John-Stevas:
Since the right Hon. Gentleman has reflected on the subject and is noted for his academic brilliance, would he say in one brief, concise sentence, exactly what Scientology is?

Mr. Crossman:
Yes, I think I could: it is a fraud."

 

[Claire Swazey]

"British Parliament, 1968:
Mr. St. John-Stevas:
Since the right Hon. Gentleman has reflected on the subject and is noted for his academic brilliance, would he say in one brief, concise sentence, exactly what Scientology is?

Mr. Crossman:
Yes, I think I could: it is a fraud."

Doesn't contradict what I was saying. I think you missed the other post I wrote where I said that saying something is a therapy doesn't make it valid.

 

[Infinite]

Nah. It is a therapy. Just not an accredited one.

And I'm a Venusian train driver, just don't have a licence.

Not all auditing is metered. Prior to OTIII, no one is asked to believe in past lives. And, yes, furthering or encouraging someone in a delusion does lead to creation of that and future ones.

The issue we are talking about is metered. Perhaps they are not asked to belive in past lives but it is certainly presented as fact by Scientology even before a person goes near an org. How can something that doesn't exist be furthered?

 

[Gadfly]

Any bit of Scientology that can predictably, reliably and commonly produce a specific, beneficial result could reasonaly be called "theraputic" and "workable". If just receiving auditing over time makes a person "feel better", I would not consider that particularly theraputic as it tends to make the person emotionally dependent on Scientology without any true benefit.

In all this debate, it is my hope that, if any part of Scientology is truly beneficial, that it won't be thrown out with the bath water. (But, as some have said, not much of value would be lost if that did happen).

Bill

The problem is that modern counselors, psychologists and therapists don't themselves get what could be called "predictably, reliably and commonly produce a specific, beneficial result".

This realm of the mind is so very FAR from "being a science".

First, there are just so MANY variables, and second, I doubt that anyone studying the subject today is even aware of all the variables involved. And, it won't be solved by addressing it all as "physical, chemical and biological".

Strangely or interestingly, over the past twenty years, modern psychology has EMBRACED many of the weirder ideas borrowed from various New Age notions.

Meditation and guided visualization are common modern therapy methods. As with ALL of such things, results are quite variable. Of course, they are probably much more HONEST about it than is Scientology. Scientology/Hubbard claim that it/he understands everything and can fix anything. An honest therapist will probably say, quite differently than the brutal disingenuous Hard Sell Scientology approach, "we will do our best and hope for the best . . . . but there are no guarantees with such things".

 

[Infinite]

. . . I think you missed the other post I wrote where I said that saying something is a therapy doesn't make it valid.

Doesn't make it a therapy, either.

 

[BardoThodol]

Well, you can claim all you want that NOTHING about Scientology is "therapeutic".

But, even though I detest a great deal about how Hubbard put his subject and organization together, some of the auditing and TRs were VERY "therapeutic" for me.

Dianetics can and does function as a therapy. So do various assists for "losses". ARC X handlings function as a sort of therapy.

Sorry, this statement is NOT true, neither subjectively for many people, and not objectively if one studies certain aspects of the larger subject honestly and carefully:

Scientology is not a therapy.

I find most of the expanded grades to also be quite "therapeutic".

I know, some people here on ESMB really want to be able to have certain generalities be true (on both sides).

Also, I am pretty sure that there are licensed therapists out there who use "past life regression". In fact, also, the majority of "alien abduction" events have been recounted in "hypnotic regression" (though granted the techniques are VERY susceptible to suggestion by the hypnotist), having been performed by licensed psycholgists.

The field of modern psychology embraces what was considered quite strange and even esoteric twenty or thirty years ago. Many modern psychologists use visualization and affirmation techniques that come straight from the same sources Hubbard studied (magick, the occult, meditation, eastern philosophy, etc.).

I sometimes think that much of the argument about Scientology revolves around definition. What Scientology means to that person.

Hubbard was an avid reader. And very clever. He amassed so much information from so many sources and cobbled together a philosophy based on all these truths seen by those he read.

If there had been no truths underlying what we studied in Scientology, none of us would have stayed. Well, very few.

TRs, done correctly, can be very therapeutic. So can an understanding of ARC.

Trouble was, these things got bastardized. Instead of being there and communicating, listening to another and acknowledging what they said, TRs became this glassy-eyed stare from Zombieland. And ARC became a tool of manipulation rather than a key to improving understanding between individuals.

If therapy is a means of healing, then I would have to credit my exposure to Scientology for healing some nasty sickness in myself. If I hadn't run into Scientology when I did, I'd probably be dead or in prison.

However, my "Scientology" is an idealized one. It's the Scientology that we wanted, full of hope and promise. It isn't the actual Scientology created by Hubbard, the shiny apple you want to taste only to discover it's rotten.

I've been thinking about the German Nazis under Hitler. They did a lot to improve a country which was prostrate. The Nazi movement lifted Germany, made it proud and productive once again. So, if you were to idealize Nazis, you could go on about how wonderful it was. As long as you left out the genocide and other atrocities.

But, you can't leave out the bad parts and correctly define something.

Nor, conversely, can you leave out the good parts and correctly define it.

Those who have an idealized definition of Scientology may recognize that Hubbard pulled some rotten shit, but then shove that off to the side and say that wasn't part of Scientology. But it was. It's part of the definition.

Those who hate Scientology will simply shove all the good ideas off to the side and claim that isn't really Scientology but something he stole. But, the good was there also, and part of the real definition.

I'm watching the political process unfold once again, watching how both sides demonize each other. Both sides claim to have the truth? But no one seems willing to look beyond their fixed ideas.

One of the things I took away from Scientology that I liked a lot was information on Ser Facs. These ideas that we hold to make others wrong while making self right, to dominate others and escape domination. I think not worrying about being right or wrong helps me continuously evaluate information and be willing to change my mind.

Being willing to change was a big part of my idealized Scientology.

Every therapy intends change. Yet, I suppose one person's therapy is another's bane.

 

[Bill]

The problem is that modern counselors, psychologists and therapists don't themselves get what could be called "predictably, reliably and commonly produce a specific, beneficial result".

This realm of the mind is so very FAR from "being a science".

First, there are just so MANY variables, and second, I doubt that anyone studying the subject today is even aware of all the variables involved. And, it won't be solved by addressing it all as "physical, chemical and biological".

Strangely or interestingly, over the past twenty years, modern psychology has EMBRACED many of the weirder ideas borrowed from various New Age notions.

Meditation and guided visualization are common modern therapy methods. As with ALL of such things, results are quite variable. Of course, they are probably much more HONEST about it than is Scientology. Scientology/Hubbard claim that it/he understands everything and can fix anything. An honest therapist will probably say, quite differently than the brutal disingenuous Hard Sell Scientology approach, "we will do our best and hope for the best . . . . but there are no guarantees with such things".

Well, yes. Except what Hubbard claimed for Scientology was that it was an exact science. I'm only talking about Scientology's "therapy" and claims.

Bill

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Nah. It is a therapy. Just not an accredited one.

Not all auditing is metered. Prior to OTIII, no one is asked to believe in past lives.
And, yes, furthering or encouraging someone in a delusion does lead to creation of that and future ones.

That's not true at all. Take a look at Ron's books, tapes & HCOBs beginning in 1952 in History of Man, to 1967 when he released OT III.

We are talking about MILLIONS of words asking Scientologists to believe in past lives.

And we are talking about TRILLIONS of years ago that Ron lectured Scientologist about "What To Audit" (original title of History of Man).

Gorilla Goals

A black gorilla was said by Hubbard to have been used by the Hoipolloi to implant the Gorilla Goals.

According to Scientology, the Gorilla Goals were a series of implants created by invaders from Helatrobus "between about 319 trillion[1] years ago to about 256 trillion trillion[8] years ago". They were given in an amusement park with a single tunnel, a roller coaster and a Ferris wheel ... The symbol of a Gorilla was always present in the place the goal was given. Sometimes a large gorilla, black, was seen elsewhere than the park.

A mechanical or a live gorilla was always seen in the park. This activity was conducted by the Hoipolloi, a group of operators in meat body societies. They were typical carnival people. They let out concessions for these implant "Amusement Parks." A pink-striped white shirt with sleeve garters was the uniform of the Hoipolloi. Such a figure often rode on the roller coaster cars. Monkeys were also used on the cars. Elephants sometimes formed part of the equipment. ("Routine 3N: Line Plots", HCOB 14 July 1963)

 

[Demented LRH]

If the man is hallucinating then the hallucination is his reality. What is so hard to understand about that?

If a man sees a cat on the stage then that is his reality whether or not there is a cat there. Reality in this sense does not suggest objective truth. It corresponds to a recognizably subjective sense of truth.

Nothing about reality implies either sanity or accurate perception. It's just about matching a person's reality so as to improve communication with him. It's not about enforcing your own beliefs of objective truth on others.

The concept of ARC implies addressing the person at his reality in order to better understand him. Attempting to enforce your own reality will lead to his becoming upset with you and thereby create an ARCX.

Whether you actually want to create a heightened sense of ARC with the person is a separate issue.

Think of the reality of different political extremists. They may be utterly certain of their own view as well as completely convinced of the obvious insanity of those who disagree. If a person wishes to communicate effectively with such then he will fail unless he understands this other person's reality.

And of course, nothing suggests that a person actually needs to bother. Remember the "never give or receive a communication ...." bit? That one was another decent suggestion, however the Co$ may have misapplied it.


Mark A. Baker

Yes, the man sees his hallucination as his reality, I agree with that. But the outside sources (9 other men) see his reality as a hallucination. The question is -- who is better prepared to live a normal life without being danger to himself? Obviously, the 9 men are fit to live in our universe without having anyone looking after them.

If the hallucinating man were able to avoid life-threatening situations, I would say, "Let him live his hallucinatory life without our interference". But this is not the case; people who are prone to hallucinations are in danger of losing their lives.

One day he sees a cat on the stage; another day he sees the water in an empty pool and jumps into it from a 40-feet platform.

You can define reality as a hallucination, and vice versa. But this is just a play of words. The consequence of an incorrect definition could be a disaster, though.

"Ride your insanity', said Rajesh to his followers. Those who took his advice close to the heart ended up in mental institutions.

PS. I quit believing in ARC when I was a Scientologist because even then it made no sense to me; I saw it as a bunch of platitudes not worthy my attention.

 

[phenomanon]

Isn't that similar to psychologists playing along with a patient's fantasy about being this or that person or something of the sort?

Gee, I dunno. I've never been to a Psychologist, so I don't know what they do. I would hazard a guess that if a psychologist's patient were to tell him " I was the Capt of a Starliner 45 million years ago", that the psychologist might institutionalize him ( if they do that), or put the patient on some drugs.

But that's an uneducated guess. I have no idea what they do. Do you? Have you consulted with one?

I do know what a Scientologist would do, however. The Scientologist would acknowledge the PCs origination, and continue with the process.

phenomanon

 

[phenomanon]

Nah. It is a therapy. Just not an accredited one.

Not all auditing is metered. Prior to OTIII, no one is asked to believe in past lives.
And, yes, furthering or encouraging someone in a delusion does lead to creation of that and future ones.

Prior to OT111, every PC is encouraged to run past lives by continually asking for Earlier Similars. Both in Dianetics and Scientology.

phenomanon

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

A small sampling:


1) From the 1952 'History of Man' ["This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last 60 trillion years"] by L. Ron Hubbard, early 1952, originally titled 'What to Audit':


2) From old timer John Sanborn, speaking of the 1950s:

"In a Phoenix Congress... he talked about spooky whole track stuff. He had a floodlight on the floor in front of this little platform shining up, because that makes you look ghouly. And his face looked really weird and outer space and really crazy... and he talked weird... I think he was trying to drive people a little bit wacko so they'd fall into his hand a little bit."


3) From the lecture "Auditing Comm Cycles" 06 Aug 1963:

"Now, I'll give you an idea - an idea of this. For instance, I know - I know where I was and who I was, and know with good certainty, who I was and where I was in the last eighty trillion years. See, I know that; that's not much of an argument with me. But the small details of that are liable to go fritter-fritter here and there. You know, what did I have for breakfast two trillion years ago? No. Nix, man. Nah. Did I even eat, you see? That sort of thing is getting pretty dim."


4) The "Dianetic Past Life Remedy" (1970s Dianetics) goes, "What attitudes would make one unwilling to go earlier than this life?

"You get the best reading item, check for interest and run the item R3R. You re-access, check for interest and R3R. Continue to reassess and add to the list until the list is exhausted.

"Repeat the steps listing (separately and in this order) for emotions, sensations and pains that 'would make one unwilling to go earlier than this life'.

"Somewhere along the line, the pc will go earlier than this life."


5) From OT 2:

"Many persons experience unreality at the start of [whole track implant] GPM running; this leaves when you see the meter reads."

....

"They are implant incidents...

"Trillions, 20,095.

"Hot Cold.

"This is a pole with a split in it. The back split is hot, the front is cold. Two temperatures. Duration is 1 [and] 1/8th seconds...

"Dance Mob.

"Trillions, 18,992.

"This duration is 7/8 of a second. There is a pole that pulls one in. One is caught in the pole."

And a little more:

"230 trillions.

"This seeks to install...

"Implanter X... Target X," etc. [Shows diagram of implant], etc.

Oh, I just noticed that you already answered Claire with HOM references. Too late to delete my later post.

Just a couple comments...

And if a PC did not recall past lives they would be given the Past Lives Remedy.

And if a PC did recall past lives but his recall did not coincide with Ron's recall, it would have been "handled". For example, would someone be permitted to:

* Recall a past life where they discovered some part of Scientology and got ripped off by Ron without being given credit and royalties?

* Recall a the last 76 trillion years of the 'history of man' that is entirely different than Ron stated in the book--and excitedly share that win with other Scientologists at graduation?

* Recall a past life where they were a scientist who debunked (past-life) Ron when he tried to sell fraudulent OT tech? And what would happen if the PC had full EP on that incident with FN, COG, VVGIs where the COG was that Ron is still defrauding people with Scientology? ​

The point is that Scientologists are only allowed to run the official time time track that has been sanctioned by Ron. And only have the official cognitions that are in the big book of allowable cognitions.

Scientology is a carefully crafted behavioral modification system where only the pre-approved thoughts/cogs are rewarded and the wrongs ones are punished.

 

[Gadfly]

Well, yes. Except what Hubbard claimed for Scientology was that it was an exact science. I'm only talking about Scientology's "therapy" and claims.

Bill

Well, as I am sure you are aware, I don't listen to ANYTHING Hubbard says that I can't or haven't verified for myself by direct observation.

Hubbard was a total DOOFUS to try to pass off Scientology as a "science", based on "legitimate research".

I ignore all grandiose CLAIMS that orignate from Hubbard's mouth. When it comes to auditing, my view is try it if you want, and maybe it will have some positive results. Other than THAT, anything Hubbard says is BULLSHIT. I remove the idea of auditing from the general larger context of "bridge to freedom", "securing ones eternity", "reversing the dwindling spiral", "operating thetans", and other related nonsense.

I remember about 6 months after I started gettig auditing - I had about 25-30 hours EVERY week for many months (intensive auditing was the ONLY way to go - for me). A staff member returned from Flag. He had done all the way up to OT VII (old super-duper OT VII), and he also finished the OEC FEBC executive training lineup. He was originally supposed to return as ED of Boston Day Org, but he "had some trouble".

I was a bit surpised to meet a guy who was NOT AT ALL "OT", who even had trouble talking in front of other people! So, I realized EARLY on, that even though I myself had some great experiences with TRs and auditing, all mainly in the first 6 months of involvement with Scn, that it sure did seem that the MAMMOTH PROMISES of OT were greatly over-hyped. Of course, I also noticed early on that one could not actually SAY THAT. It is a HIGH CRIME to denigrate the state of Clear or OT! Go figure.

Imagine that. If a person did the OT levels (or an OT level) and told ANYONE that he or she didn't really think it was that great, he or she would be GUILTY of a SUPPRESSIVE ACT!!!!!!

Scientology is such a nutty "religion".

I somehow managed to maintain a fairly decent sense of the what I saw to be true and not true, though of course I knew the politics involved and that I could not voice such things. That was an EARLY red flag for me - that a "road to freedom" could be so intolerant of "free speech" and "contrary views to the Scientology dogma and party line".

 

[Claire Swazey]

Gee, I dunno. I've never been to a Psychologist, so I don't know what they do. I would hazard a guess that if a psychologist's patient were to tell him " I was the Capt of a Starliner 45 million years ago", that the psychologist might institutionalize him ( if they do that), or put the patient on some drugs.

But that's an uneducated guess. I have no idea what they do. Do you? Have you consulted with one?

I do know what a Scientologist would do, however. The Scientologist would acknowledge the PCs origination, and continue with the process.

phenomanon

Yes, actually, I do know what some psychologists do. There are various schools of thought and differing forms of psychological practice, so it does vary.

I have studied it in school and there was a metric crap ton of it in my family. We also had family friends who were practitioners.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Prior to OT111, every PC is encouraged to run past lives by continually asking for Earlier Similars. Both in Dianetics and Scientology.

phenomanon

That does not encourage anyone to run past lives. Nor does it discourage it. Asking for earlier similars (which is a Dianetic command, by the way) just means is there an earlier similar event. If someone truly did not believe in any way that he'd lived before, he would only come up with recollections from the one lifetime. Nor does all auditing ask for earlier events.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Doesn't make it a therapy, either.

Accreditation of lack of doesn't make something a therapy and doesn't make it not a therapy.

Neither does efficacy.

Scn has. you know, been called a "therapy cult" by some. I always thought that was a rather pithy description.

Therapy -noun, plural ther·a·pies.
1. the treatment of disease or disorders, as by some remedial, rehabilitating, or curative process: speech therapy.

2. a curative power or quality.

3. psychotherapy.

4. any act, hobby, task, program, etc., that relieves tension

 

[Claire Swazey]

That's not true at all. Take a look at Ron's books, tapes & HCOBs beginning in 1952 in History of Man, to 1967 when he released OT III.

We are talking about MILLIONS of words asking Scientologists to believe in past lives.

And we are talking about TRILLIONS of years ago that Ron lectured Scientologist about "What To Audit" (original title of History of Man).

I was talking about in session. So I stand by what I said.

 

[Free to shine]

I know some of you will put your hand over your hearts and say, but I've had hundreds/thousands of hours of Auditing, and I'm not damaged... good for you! But sadly, many ARE harmed. Many actually believe themselves to BE "degraded beings", because of these false memories they have "experienced" during Auditing.

Yes you are right. I have certainly seen it in others, and experienced this myself.