Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berry

[TG1]

Re: WHY SCIENTOLOGISTS HATE GERRY ARMSTRONG

Thanks for this Veda, and for all your thoughtful posts over the years. A few months ago, Gerry was "accused" of being Veda, or maybe it was the other way around, but anyway, we took it as a compliment.

TG1

 

[Smurf]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

The video of Rinder's black PR has been re-posted on RuTube (Russian).

http://rutube.ru/tracks/5711421.html

 

[PirateAndBum]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

The video of Rinder's black PR has been re-posted on RuTube (Russian).

http://rutube.ru/tracks/5711421.html

Yeah, I TOTALLY see why the independent Scilons wouldn't want to work with Markus after seeing a clip like that! Their pal Mike dissing some people they don't like. Must have been the TITLE of the video that just pushed them right over the edge! (pls don't fail to read the sarcasm)

I'm confused, I thought the indy's would love black PR on Gerry seeing how he's exposed the facts about good old L Ron and is their enemy.

So, the facts about LRH get yanked from Markus' OSA documentary. Sure sounds like a successful OP on someone's part.

Ah, the twistings and turnings of the Scilon camp. DM should be pleased with his (ex?) minions.

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

I've watched it several times and really don't get the fuss.
Black PR? Gimme a break!
Storm : Teacup.

 

[Smurf]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

I've watched it several times and really don't get the fuss. Black PR? Gimme a break! Storm : Teacup.

Oh..oh.. you're going to make Caroline mad..

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

What do Micavige, Rathbun, and Rinder have in common?

They are all Sea Org members.

And. . .

They are all Loyal Officers to cult leaders.

They are all Royal Officious cult leaders themselves.

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

Oh..oh.. you're going to make Caroline mad..

Lol, too bad! I get worse insults thrown at me 3 or 4 times a day on Facebook!

( and they're totally undeserved, IMHO )

 

[PirateAndBum]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

And. . .

They are all Loyal Officers.

They are all Royally Officious.

I think that's: Royally Oaffish

Yes, rather weak black PRing on Mike's part.

Gerry, don't hold your breath on getting anything from M & M. IMO, their involvement in your fair gaming and their Hubbard mind-warp is too extensive for that to ever happen. They are still "IN". Keep on keeping on with your own life.

 

[AnonyMary]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

Lol, too bad! I get worse insults thrown at me 3 or 4 times a day on Facebook!

( and they're totally undeserved, IMHO )

I've watched it several times and really don't get the fuss.
Black PR? Gimme a break!
Storm : Teacup.

Perhaps you don't know the history of the OSA propaganda machine and it's use against Gerry & Graham...... What you saw was an obvious minimizing of the extensive good efforts of those two, with the addition of character attacks, from the man who spent years helping to try and stop them.

Mike Rinder hat his OSA hat on when he stated these things.. plain and simple.

 

[Free to shine]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

Perhaps you don't know the history of the OSA propaganda machine and it's use against Gerry & Graham...... What you saw was an obvious minimizing of the extensive good efforts of those two, with the addition of character attacks, from the man who spent years helping to try and stop them.

Mike Rinder hat his OSA hat on when he stated these things.. plain and simple.

I agree. Just watching him speak made me shudder, a gut reaction.

 

[Caroline]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

Caroline, can you shed any light on why Ursula Caberta would have such a position regarding Gerry and yourself? It doesn't seem to make sense that a Scientology critic would not side with another critic.

I'm sure she is continually subjected to OSA ops. It is strange that she would not see that Rathbun and Rinder are still very much Scientologists and be wary of them especially since they are the 2 most highly trained and successful OSA operatives of the last 25-30 years.

Yes, I think I can.

To begin with, I think the word "critic" is problematic here, partly because it's a Hubbard-defined grouping and made to be highly perjorative, essentially equated with "SP." (Ref. HCOB Critics of Scientology)

I don't know if Ursula Caberta calls herself a critic, although she would be less likely to gain traction with Independent Scientologists if she positioned herself as one. I know Caberta is friends with people who call themselves critics.

Gerry and I don't belong to a critics group. We do recognize that there are all kinds of people who call themselves critics, including some who black PR people like us, and call it criticism. From the middle of our situation, where fighting the Scientology v. Armstrong & Letkeman war takes our time and then some, this set of "critics" support the Scientologists.

We oppose Scientology, Hubbard, the Scientologists, and their supporters, so maybe a better term for us would be "opponents." But our real relationship with the Scientologists that needs to be confronted and corrected is their victims.

Scientologists of all factions seek to remove opposition to Scientology, so it's accurate to just call them Scientologists. They are undeniably united in their war on SPs, who are people who tell the truth about Hubbard and Scientology, and are the Scientologists' fair game victims. Much pretense and pretended ignorance is involved here, and Scientologists are good at confusing things. But they all apply the SP doctrine from their positions in Scientology and in life. (Key documents: SP doctrine)

Next, it is necessary to understand that an alliance exists between Ursula Caberta, Mark Rathbun, and of course the Scientologists he leads. We hope that it is an alliance that gains no power and crumbles, because it was made and operates to the detriment of the Scientologists' victims.

Caberta and Rathbun spoke together at conference in Hamburg on 7 September, 2011. A press spokesman introduced Caberta as a “Scientology expert in the Office of the Interior.” Caberta announced an official alliance with Rathbun and the Independent Scientologists that contact her.

From the Youtube English captions:

...what we hopefully will do together in the future, Marty Rathbun and I:
That the crimes of David Miscavige occurring worldwide under his leadership,...
his harrassment of critics and defectors which is run under his management are brought to light,..
...so as to maybe finally put an end to the spook of the Scientology organisation under David Miscavige.
However from my point of view this will only succeed...
...if we manage to make clear in the United States of America...
...what kind of man they're really dealing with.
And not only with him, but we'll have to be just as hard on his henchman Tom Cruise.

Caberta also spoke about her official duties regarding exiting Scientologists. She indicated that she helps people who are exiting from (organized) Scientology, and says "we must work at joining all the informations from different levels, and to help those who need it to cope on the outside." It is apparent from the alliance that Caberta was now expecting further information, including from the USA. Rathbun and Rinder claim to be Scientology's top intel experts. And it sounds like there's an idea if not a plan of sending exiting Scientologists to Rathbun.

I hope and I am certain...
...that in the future together we can reach those people...
...who have left Scientology already but were still hesitant to either turn to him,...
...for those defamatory reasons I related at the beginning...
...or to turn to me...
...because oftentimes the step of approaching the devil in person is too wide.

But we must work at joining all the informations from different levels...
...and to help those who need it to cope on the outside.

And this is the key cesura that we hopefully advance internationally,...

Ursula Caberta in Hamburg 7th September 2011 Questions & Answers (@2:40)

Ursula Caberta's attacks on Gerry and me and the Gandows for supporting Gerry, all were right on the heels of this announced alliance with Rathbun's Independents.

Thanks to liekmudkip and Anonymous Hamburg, here are the videos of the Hamburg conference:

Press conference introduction to Marty Rathbun in Hamburg 07th September 2011

[video=youtube;knSqalZAsQ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knSqalZAsQ8[/video]

Former Executive of the Church of Scientology Marty Rathbun in Hamburg 07th September 2011 Part I

[video=youtube;V_hEwu9Ra8A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&src_vid=knSqalZAsQ8&v=V_hEwu9Ra8A&annotation_id=annotation_944651[/video]

Former Executive of the Church of Scientology Marty Rathbun in Hamburg 07th September 2011 Part II

[video=youtube;b_PRqsMJKUg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3384&src_vid=V_hEwu9Ra8A&v=b_PRqsMJKUg&feature=iv[/video]

Former Executive of the Church of Scientology Marty Rathbun in Hamburg 07th September 2011 Q&A

[video=youtube;qvq7qsBMXoE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=b_PRqsMJKUg&v=qvq7qsBMXoE&annotation_id=annotation_471252&feature=iv[/video]

Ursula Caberta answers questions at a press conference in Hamburg 07th September 2011

[video=youtube;ZNYEvUfrMkA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=qvq7qsBMXoE&v=ZNYEvUfrMkA&annotation_id=annotation_700676&feature=iv[/video]

PS: The captions on these videos are helpful, but complete translations and transcripts will be needed eventually, and would be much appreciated. If they're out there already, could someone let us know please?

 

[PirateAndBum]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

I'm afraid Mike's OSA Hat has permanently fused with his skulll. It's gonna take small jack-hammers to remove and I'm not sure what will remain after the operation.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

<snip>
Next, it is necessary to understand that an alliance exists between Ursula Caberta, Mark Rathbun, and of course the Scientologists he leads. We hope that it is an alliance that gains no power and crumbles, because it was made and operates to the detriment of the Scientologists' victims.

Caberta and Rathbun spoke together at conference in Hamburg on 7 September, 2011. A press spokesman introduced Caberta as a “Scientology expert in the Office of the Interior.” Caberta announced an official alliance with Rathbun and the Independent Scientologists that contact her.

From the Youtube English captions:



Caberta also spoke about her official duties regarding exiting Scientologists. She indicated that she helps people who are exiting from (organized) Scientology, and says "we must work at joining all the informations from different levels, and to help those who need it to cope on the outside." It is apparent from the alliance that Caberta was now expecting further information, including from the USA. Rathbun and Rinder claim to be Scientology's top intel experts. And it sounds like there's an idea if not a plan of sending exiting Scientologists to Rathbun.

Thank you. That makes it very clear.

Wow, what an Independent Scn OSA Victory!

You gotta hand it to Marty. He's a smooth operator pulling that shit off.

God, someone should inform the poor woman of what a viper she is befriending.

How is it that she cannot see that it is L Ron Hubbard that created Scn to be EXACTLY as it is today? And that Marty drinks from the same blood-filled golden goblet that Hubbard crafted?

Yikes.

Hopefully she will come to see fully through the veils that Marty so deftly has draped over her eyes.

 

[AnonyMary]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

I'm afraid Mike's OSA Hat has permanently fused with his skulll. It's gonna take small jack-hammers to remove and I'm not sure what will remain after the operation.

LOL~ In reality, however, it won't come off unless he removes it himself and there is no evidence to date that this will ever happen.

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

Perhaps you don't know the history of the OSA propaganda machine and it's use against Gerry & Graham...... What you saw was an obvious minimizing of the extensive good efforts of those two, with the addition of character attacks, from the man who spent years helping to try and stop them.

Mike Rinder hat his OSA hat on when he stated these things.. plain and simple.

I know some things about it, Mary, and find it reprehensible. I obviously don't know the entirety of the story.

What I saw in that video is Rinder poo-poo'ing the idea, framed by the Journalist, that Gerry has been constantly under attack by OSA ever since those original court cases in the Armstrong vs CofS days. I really don't know the whole truth of this thing, I've read plenty about it and plenty of claims to the effect that the harassment continues to this day but I don't know how true those claims may be. I've read that Graham wasn't particularly upset about Rinder's opinion of him but Gerry/Caroline obviously are.

Perhaps I should err on the side of only being wholly supportive of Gerry but, in truth, I just look at what I see and make up my own mind about how I feel about it. It's when I speak that mind that I seem to get into "trouble". My life has always been a bit like that. Que sera.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

... Scientologists of all factions seek to remove opposition to Scientology, so it's accurate to just call them Scientologists. ...

This is much too sweeping a generality and inaccurate a statement. I consider myself a freezone scientologist and neither I nor any liberal freezoner friends of mine have any trouble opposing the scientology cult of those loyal to hubbard or his church.

Nor am I especially surprised about Caberta's apparent cooperation with the Independents. As a german official & politician in a liberal democracy with a concern for being seen to recognize the rights of minorities she has nonetheless been instrumental in drawing attention to the dangerous cult aspects of the church of scientology. But those have always been centered on the activities of official church. The question of whether Rathbun is credible aside, his apparent opposition to the church and promotion of scientology principles along with his cooperation with Caberta & others, gives weight to the idea that the german government is targeting a dangerous cult and is not simply vested in suppressing the rights of those individuals who undertake the practice of scientology.

I have stated on numerous occasions and on several fora that I regard Rathbun as completely unreliable, both for his many past criminal & abusive practices and his failure to fully acknowledge & take responsibility for those actions as well as his continuance of exactly the same sort of deceitful & misleading behaviors in which he specialized as a senior member of the church. Maybe Rathbun has changed for the better. There is very little evidence to support that conclusion, though.

Even so, I don't see Caberta's actions with regard Rathbun as either unreasonable or especially surprising. As the old saw goes: politics makes for strange bedfellows.


Mark A. Baker

 

[degraded being]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

This is much too sweeping a generality and inaccurate a statement. I consider myself a freezone scientologist and neither I nor any liberal freezoner friends of mine have any trouble opposing the scientology cult of those loyal to hubbard or his church.

Nor am I especially surprised about Caberta's apparent cooperation with the Independents. As a german official & politician in a liberal democracy with a concern for being seen to recognize the rights of minorities she has nonetheless been instrumental in drawing attention to the dangerous cult aspects of the church of scientology. But those have always been centered on the activities of official church. The question of whether Rathbun is credible aside, his apparent opposition to the church and promotion of scientology principles along with his cooperation with Caberta & others, gives weight to the idea that the german government is targeting a dangerous cult and is not simply vested in suppressing the rights of those individuals who undertake the practice of scientology.

I have stated on numerous occasions and on several fora that I regard Rathbun as completely unreliable, both for his many past criminal & abusive practices and his failure to fully acknowledge & take responsibility for those actions as well as his continuance of exactly the same sort of deceitful & misleading behaviors in which he specialized as a senior member of the church. Maybe Rathbun has changed for the better. There is very little evidence to support that conclusion, though.

Even so, I don't see Caberta's actions with regard Rathbun as either unreasonable or especially surprising. As the old saw goes: politics makes for strange bedfellows.


Mark A. Baker

Except that if R&R are still supporters of the practices that Ursula opposes, and she really understood that, presumably she would not want to be bedfellows with them, or even be seen to be bedfellows with them.

 

[Veda]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

-snip-

What I saw in that video is Rinder poo-poo'ing the idea, framed by the Journalist, that Gerry has been constantly under attack by OSA ever since those original court cases in the Armstrong vs CofS days. I really don't know the whole truth of this thing, I've read plenty about it and plenty of claims to the effect that the harassment continues to this day but I don't know how true those claims may be.

-snip-

And I doubt you'll be convinced by what follows, and I don't want to argue with you. However, others may be interested.

I think calling it "Black PR" may be causing some confusion. It is Black PR, but, more simply, it's just plain lying.

This is a bit complicated, and I've just located a few old posts and included them below.

There's much more occurring than what I've noted below, but bear with me, as I present these few posts - each a kind of snapshot.

__________​

Post A:

It was almost two decades ago that David Mayo wrote, "I am not a Scientologist now and have not been for many years."

Coming from a Class XII, this is an almost unforgivable statement, and considered traitorous. Class XIIs are supposed to be fiercely loyal to Hubbard, and forever diligent in forwarding Scientology and protecting Hubbard's "Image," his "good name," etc.

David Mayo violated this rule and even ceased being a Scientologist.

That is regarded as a greater sin than "settling," especially when that "settling" occurred under extenuating circumstances, as do many "settlements" involving Scientology.

The "crime" is not "settling," but in having "besmirched the good name of L. Ron Hubbard," etc.

During the kerfuffle of some months ago, involving a Marty supporter [one of Marty's inner circle] and Class XII [Karen#1], who had airbrushed away some content of a posted David Mayo affidavit - content which put Hubbard in a negative light - there were a number of discussions. During one discussion, Gerry Armstrong was described, by another Marty supporter, as a "scofflaw." Why a "Scofflaw"? Because Armstrong had broken his agreement with Scientology and continued to speak out about Scientology. And there have been other similar statements indicating that the entire "settlement" argument is a red herring. That's not what upsets the Hubbardites. What angers the Hubbardites are comments such as these...

From Russell Miller's 1986 interview of former Senior C/S International and Class XII, David Mayo:

"He [L. Ron Hubbard] could be capable of incredible cruelty... insatiable lust for power and money..." [Rest of excerpt snipped for brevity]

And from a 1991 article by David Mayo on 'Clear':

"It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point..."

Scientology has been passionately seeking to airbrush out of existence unwanted information on Hubbard, and Hubbard's Scientology, since before the Snow White Project. It MUST do so. The sense of frustration must be tremendous.

__________​

Post B:

And this has been posted many times before, but it's very relevant to the over all situation, where "wogs" and even some EXes are being "persuaded." It also has a second part.

The outside the CoS Scientologists have finally found an effective "button" to "push," with which to apply the following "LRH datum." That button is the "Church" of Scientology as run by David Miscavige, with Miscavige presented as an "anti-Scientologist":

"The objective is to be identified as attackers of popularly considered evils [Miscavige, and 'Miscavology', i.e. 'perverted' or 'Reverse Scientology' or 'anti-Scientology']. This declassifies us from former labels. It reclassifies our attackers [or critics or opponents] as evil [or crazy, etc.] people."

[Convey the idea to "wogs" that "People atacking Scientology have something wrong with them," i.e. are crazy, etc., as Hubbard had instructed in his teachings in 1955 in the 'Manual on Dissemination', and had instructed in other places.]

Confidential 'Black Propaganda' 12 January 1972


Who are those "evil [crazy, 'have something wrong with them'] people."

One, according to J. Swift, is Gerry Armstrong.

[Note: J. Swift was once a critic of Scientology who, for unknown reasons, had become a passionate supporter of Marty&Mike&Friends, including Karen#1. He has since disappeared, and there is no desire to revisit any old arguments with this material, but it does seem to be relevant to the current situation, with regard to showing patterns.]

J. Swift noted, "Unlike the scofflaw Gerry Armstrong, David Mayo signed a non-disclosure agreement and abides by the terms."

"Scofflaw"?

One wonders about the ultimate motive behind the game being played. As much as I dislike Miscavige, and as much as I appreciate Karen#1's contributing to the already decades-long exposure of Miscavige's abuses, I, for one, am not interested in being a manipulated or "played."

__________​

Post C:

One last J. Swift quote, an excerpt:

"Where Scientology is concerned, Mainstream Culture has swung to supporting the Independent practice of Scientology...

"There are no mainstream journalists, academics, or popular authors who oppose Independent Scientology.

"Those of us who support the Indies are growing in numbers."

This is where we are being led, and I am not interested in going there.

__________​

Post D:

I'm not going to go into details, but I know of two recent events. One directly involved Gerry Armstrong, and the other (second event) followed the event involving Gerry Armstrong. This is vague, I know, but you'll just have to take my word for it.

The second event was the theft (of old Hubbard reel to reel lecture tapes, and other items, documents, etc.) from a person's place of business a few years ago.

Two well-dressed clean-cut large men entered under false pretenses, presenting themselves as old friends and asking to look around, the attendant/person/employee, not being aware of Scientology, saw them in their nice suits and pleasant demeanor, and mistakenly permitted them access. A short time later they were seen carrying boxes out a side door and quickly driving off.

They had been Scientology Private Investigators.

The other, also within the last few years, was where a person, while paying a social visit to Gerry Armstrong, was held at an airport (overseas) for many hours - as a "security risk," with all the unpleasantness that accompanies that - due to a mysterious phone call that identified this person as a terrorist or dangerous person. This occurred to the same person on whom the thefts were shortly thereafter committed, apparently in retaliation for the visit to Gerry Armstrong.

The events of post D occurred while Rinder was still in $cientology, and he would have had knowledge of them.

Thus, it appears that he is lying.

This has been a mish mosh of posts, I know, but I hope I hope it's understandable enough.

I really can't elaborate any further, and I definitely don't want to open old wounds with people such as the poster known as Karen#1 or even with J. Swift, but as major Marty&Mike allies, their comments are relevant.

And the last item will have to remain vague, but the events did occur, and it demonstrated - for me anyway - that, as of a few years ago (when Rinder was still inside the CofS) Gerry Armstrong was being watched, and at least one person visiting him was harassed as a result of that visit.

 

[Veda]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

-snip-

I've read that Graham wasn't particularly upset about Rinder's opinion of him

-snip-

I can believe that, since Graham has recently allied himself with Marty&Mike. However, I suspect he is not pleased with it, but would never publicly say so.

By the way, would you mind saying where - or linking to - where you read it?

 

[PirateAndBum]

Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

Thanks for the additional info Veda.

That's what Scn calls dead agenting. They seem to have lost the knack for it.

[video=youtube;D59ZWa8ehgI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D59ZWa8ehgI[/video]

And here I thought Mike was a fine upstanding young man.

Sign, signs everywhere signs.

Imagine that, me listening to you. Oh