Suicide

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Intrepido, yes there are always times when doing something that would be normally wrong would be right. That does include that ghastly scenario, and there have been times when that was the best thing to do in wars. People have even killed their kids rather than have them tortured to death, and I can see that would have been kindness in truly horrid situations.

In pleasant normal peaceful conditions having a friend kill him or herself is hell, for friends and family. I have been there and had to buy the black suit.

However under normal circumstances I really don't think that taking your own life does solve anything. The braver option is to actually talk it over with someone and get the help you need.

If you consider that you are a spiritual being and that death is not the end then you have the choice of getting a new body if you think that's what happens, but with a big problem still unresolved. I presume that would be the Scientology concept. On returning to lines, next time round you may well have to do repair of past ethics. There is always the danger that the c/s could consider you a threat to security because you killed yourself last time round and may do the same again.

Christians would worry about burning in hell for the rest of eternity if you believe in that. Worrying about your loved ones crying over you while the toasting fork pricks your crisply roasted flesh.

Jehovah's Witnesses would not be allowed to kill themselves or each other as you say.

You always manage to say things with just the right twist of lemon which, fortunately for the rest of us, is not wrapped around a large gold brick.

You are right about parents killing their own children as the lesser of two evils. There are animals that do exactly the same thing--budgies and mice come to mind. I have also said that if or so-called "civilization" comes crashing down and it's a case of eat or be eaten, I would terminate myself because I would not want to be part of that sort of world.

In these current times I have never lost a friend or relative to suicide, although I have lost friends to other causes when they had their whole lives apparently still in front of them. After nearly two years I still haven't gotten over my Father's passing--his replacement heart valve was guaranteed for ten years and as near as I can calculate that's exactly what he got out of it. My niece has threatened suicide so many times we all just ignore her now because she uses it as a control mechanism to get her own way.

To reincarnate into Scn would be as ludicrous as you describe, but even from my spiritualist perspective, it's still a failing proposition, because each life has its reason and its lesson, and if you're going to keep quitting class 1/2 way through, you're destined to keep repeating it until you finally get a passing grade.

The ideation of a Brimstone Hell and Fire for Eternity is really very recent to christianity. The JWs point out that the waste dumps around Jerusalem were constantly burning, because the population was always dumping refuse--when Jesus described being cast into the Pit of Gehenna he meant destruction until nothing was left, not ongoing destruction in perpetuity.

"A man's dying is more a survivor's affair than his own." Thomas Mann, Death in Venice

 

[Free to shine]

Well, I got the impression that telling the story is therapeuthic.. Has been for me, and I've seen others saying as much.. The idea that it's bad to tell is new to me?

Yep.. And Mike.. I'd like to hear all that too. I can easily imagine what went on with that.. But those stories are best heard from those who experienced it. And the strories helps others who are in the same fix too!

So please let 'er rip.. I don't believe it'll cave you in at all.

Schwimmy...I am all for telling stories for healing.
It's just that some of them are so horrific it is not easy to do. In fact, until a person is really, really ready to, and hopefully has support while they do so, it's not something that is easily done. I know Nancy took a long time to write her stuff, this is so heavy, so personal, so awful. Her original story as 'Katherine' is one that stuck with me for such a long time...I can only imagine how it felt for her to put it out there, and I am pretty sure she explains that somewhere.

What these guys are talking about is the intended destruction of a mind by reverse auditing and torture, not leaving staff stories etc...so if and when someone wants to, and can write about it, then that will be a good thing. I know from my own experience how hard it can be to even get a paragraph out on this side of the scio experience....

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Yes.. I understand that.. I think.. Because I pretended to be a scientologist for 5 or 6 years AFTER I became aware that CoS was poisonous and bad. But I was half-believing still. I thought I was an SP and could not justify my very existence really.

I don't like to talk about it, but I was suicidal! - What kept me going was my inherent skeptisism. Or put another way. Doubt is what saved me and ultimatly restored my sanity.. Curious isn't it?

I didn't consider the question about us being spiritual beings that live on after we're dead, and not gone anyway, for settled. This was a mystery for me as I reckoned it should be.

And I had doubts about myself being an SP too..

I had no doubts about Scientology being an evil totalitarian group. One view I had then, was that CoS really was a triage operation. The purpose of which was to 'root out SP's'.. Cave them in when 'discovered' to make them kill themselves if at all possible. Or even 'help' them if 'feasible'.. Ref. Fair Game policies.

Well, I skated quickly over all that in my own story too.

 

[PinkyandTheGrey]

My usual email to the cult of all cults! :

I NEVER ACCUSED YOU OF BEING INTELLIGENT!

FOR OBVIOUS REASONS!

THIS IS YOUR DESTINY, ONLY WITHOUT THE MILLIONS OF STOLEN CASH!

UNLESS YOUR NAME IS DAVID MISCAVIGE!

I AM NOT A SCIENTOLOGIST!

NOT 1 CLEAR HAS EVER EXISTED!
NOT 1 OT HAS EVER EXISTED!
NOT 1 BODY THETAN HAS EVER EXISTED!
YES, I HAVE READ OT3 AND AM ALIVE TO TELL THE LIE!

HUBBARD WAS NEVER INJURED IN ANY WAR, IN FACT
HIS SUPERIORS KNEW HIM TO BE A USELESS TOOL
HENCE WAS ORDERED TO STAY ON LAND FOR THE
MAJORITY OF THE WAR!

HE HAD 2 WIVES AT ONCE WHICH WOULD MAKE HIM A BIGAMIST TOO!

THE FBI IS INVESTIGATING YOUR "CHURCH" ON GROUNDS OF
HUMAN TRAFFICKING AS YOU READ THIS.

STOP SENDING ME EMAILS! NOW!!!

YOU CAN DO THIS THE EASY WAY OR THE HARD TIME WAY!

AND WHY THE FUCK WOULDN'T I THINK ABOUT COMMITTING SUICIDE?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Scientologists are like horses.

At first they enjoy the apples and love of their new owner.

Then the proud day comes that they are fitted with a new saddle so they can be ridden.

And after walking a bit, they triumphantly begin to trot.

Then canter...

And finally gallop at full speed until exhausted.

Then they are mercilessly whipped to go impossibly faster and longer until they drop dead.

Allowing oneself to be saddled and ridden by aggressive cult morons is a form of somewhat unintentional suicide.

The Bridge itself is a slow but always fatal suicide of one's own personality and freedom.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Thanks, Royal Prince X, I could clearly see your picture of smouldering waste dumps, and the smell of burned cloth and rotting food. Nice.

The case of the friend that killed himself is interesting, like in your quote, "A man's dying is more a survivor's affair than his own. Thomas Mann, Death in Venice''. After this guy had killed himself the survivors went through their grief, but also through blaming the mother or the girl friend for causing his pain. The friends divided into two camps over this.

We found out afterwards though that he planned his death for years, he often said he was depressed, but for years he secretly went around with a hole in the car made to fit a pipe from the exhaust.

His death resolved nothing amongst the friends and family. If he did survive death then I can't see it would have resolved anything for him, either.

Perhaps the only good that came out of it was that we all could see that it wasn't the solution, personally no matter how bad a situation has been I will battle through tears and exasperation to find a solution that will get me out of the semi-liquid brown stuff I appear to be covered with.

He had a lot of friends that still love him dearly, and I know several that will visit his grave and talk to him. Including myself.

 

[Nicole]

Yes.. I understand that.. I think.. Because I pretended to be a scientologist for 5 or 6 years AFTER I became aware that CoS was poisonous and bad. But I was half-believing still. I thought I was an SP and could not justify my very existence really.

I don't like to talk about it, but I was suicidal! - What kept me going was my inherent skeptisism. Or put another way. Doubt is what saved me and ultimatly restored my sanity.. Curious isn't it?

I didn't consider the question about us being spiritual beings that live on after we're dead, and not gone anyway, for settled. This was a mystery for me as I reckoned it should be.

And I had doubts about myself being an SP too..

I had no doubts about Scientology being an evil totalitarian group. One view I had then, was that CoS really was a triage operation. The purpose of which was to 'root out SP's'.. Cave them in when 'discovered' to make them kill themselves if at all possible. Or even 'help' them if 'feasible'.. Ref. Fair Game policies.

Well, I skated quickly over all that in my own story too.

Suicide, yes I thought about it too. I believed from 10 until 24. I believed "half" (sometimes not) from 24 until now. Now I am 36. This are 26 years I believed more or less. A long time and now my father is gone, I am disconnect from some of my near relations. It was like a world breaks together.

I thought about suicide during the Fair Game last year. I wanted that it stop. The other alternative would have been going back with all the things that I would have gone through. I didn't think about getting help from outside. I thought about getting help as I thought my kids were in danger.

I didn't go back and I didn't make suicide because of my kids.

I thought I was an "evil" person, nobody there that listen. ...but evil is that it was wished. A problem less for Co$! Now I have learned how important it is to speak or write about this things and I found people that listen.

 

[PinkyandTheGrey]

Scientologists are like horses.

At first they enjoy the love the apples and love of their new owner.

Then the proud day comes that they are fitted with a new saddle so they can be ridden.

And after walking a bit, they triumphantly begin to trot.

Then canter...

And finally gallop at full speed until exhausted.

Then they are mercilessly whipped to go impossibly faster and longer until they drop dead.

Allowing oneself to be saddled and ridden by aggressive cult morons is a form of somewhat unintentional suicide.

The Bridge itself is a slow but always fatal suicide of one's own personality and freedom.

WELCOME TO PLANET EARTH HH!
WELCOME TO LIFE HH!
IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT YOU EXPECT YOU TO DO, YOU HAVE YOU TO ANSWER TO!

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Nicole, glad you stayed alive. Never let the arschlochs win.

I don't think I know anyone who is truly evil, even the dwarf was nurtured into his insanity, as was Mugabe or Ghadafi. (But I wouldn't want to share a bed or even a taxi with any of them!)

The realisation that you are not actually evil is a key turning point in getting over scientology.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

I admit:

As a teenager in a horrible household I often considered going to bed with plastic bag over my head and some glue inside. But then I wouldn't've been there "to see the look on their faces" the next morning.

After losing my father and discovering that I kind of need another 1/2 million to finish the house and having been really badly ripped off by tenants suicidal ideation started to form, so I very careful arrangements to talk to the right people, because the "talkers" frequently don't actually do it. Most properly planned suicides are only figured out in reverse: "Oh, that's why she was giving stuff away, closing bank accounts, etc."

John Varley in his novel, Steel Beach, explores the theme of suicide in very strong terms and ultimately concludes that suicide is final method of pain control. I find this very true in most people who want euthenasia. "I have this really bad cancer. All the medical quackery hasn't resolved it and I'm going to live the rest of my life in pain. So can we end it now, please?"

At 17 I had some serious dental work done and ended up in hospital to have major surgery (and that was only one extraction). So when I had to have the "wisdom teeth" removed, it had to be under a general anaesthetic, and I made it very clear that if something went wrong and I would wake up a vegetable then they were not to wake me at all. I'm sick of seeing people in wheel chairs with their drips and their bags who can't make any of their feelings known to the outside world, and I'm sure that most of them are just wishing this long nightmare would stop.

There are always going to be good and bad times, but when it's 99% certain that there are only bad times left, I would be opting for Quality over Quantity.

 

[PinkyandTheGrey]

I thought about getting help as I thought my kids were in danger.

I didn't go back and I didn't make suicide because of my kids.

I thought I was an "evil" person, nobody there that listen. ...but evil is that it was wished. A problem less for Co$! Now I have learned how important it is to speak or write about this things and I found people that listen.

YOU, NICOLE ARE WHAT IS IMPORTANT.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM, HAPPENED TO THEM.
YOU ARE NOW.
YOU ARE TODAY.
YOU ARE TOMORROW.

THANK YOU!

LOVE,
ANDREW.

 

[Ladybird]

I was declared SP for objecting strenuously to some things (forced and coerced abortions) that I saw as so out tech, off policy, out KSW and just plain wrong that it broke through the fog of delusion and I refused to go along with it. I "enturbulated" so many people I was declared despite the fact my Comm-Ev agreed with me. I enturbulated the Comm-Ev committee members too, I was told.

I was shocked to find myself on the street with nothing. I wasn't even allowed to say goodbye to family let alone friends. It is a long story for another time. After many appeals and reviews I developed some serious medical problems that I knew would prevent me from getting up the bridge or back in the Sea Org this life time.

Scientologists believe there is no such thing as death, you are a thetan occupying a meat body. I decided my only choice was to drop the body and pick up another one so I could continue on the bridge. Nothing else seemed more important than clearing the planet after years of indoctrination that it had to be done NOW NOW NOW or every Man, Woman and Child on this planet would miss this one and only chance to escape the trap. (KSW).

I was not suicidal, it just seemed like the only logical thing to do. I didn't tell anyone. I decided to wait until my children ( who I had abandoned to my ex to join the SO years before) were grown and on their own, because we had become close and I knew it would hurt them to be abandoned again.

Meanwhile, I went back to finish my degree, and got on the internet. I found Clambake 1st, and couldn't stop reading. There were so many stories of people I knew!

So there you have it. Clambake and all the people who cared enough to tell their stories and make the truth about Scientology available on the Internet saved my life. I hope I can return the favor.

 

[PinkyandTheGrey]

You know you are.

 

[Lurker5]

Wow

Wow, everyone, WOW.

I was there once, thinking on it, many years ago - and it had nothing to do with scn/co$. It did have to do with thinking there was something wrong with me - and that being reinforced. What kept me going was being needed -at work and by my animals. Without those 2 things, I'd have done it.

After a long period of depression/suicidal thinking, I started buying books on it - and began moving my body, taking long walks - in the dark ! In the DARK ! I felt comfortable in the dark, unseen, disappearing . . .

The movng of my body, and further psychological reading, to understand what the hell was happening to me, helped me to climb out, and move on.

It is not something I wish to visit - again - either - in anything but general terms. I don't want to risk having it come down on me again - ever. And slipping into that mind set in order to tell it might bring it on, just as thinking or talking about a beloved pet that died can bring on grief.

I had to learn to acknowledge my ANGER and RAGE - and not just nod and accept what others assumed me to be - and find out who I was to me- and stand by HER, my own being - and fight to the death for her/my right to exist - just the fucking way she/I is/am.

Oh and I had to learn how to handle my anger too. Whew. What to do with it, ya know . . .

No more denial.

LOL. I had to become my own best advocate. And I did. But it was freaking painful emotionally. I found forgiveness for myself, and then for others.

I have never stopped learning, and keep digging all the time, into psychological issues and denial and patterns and defenses. My latest is the body/mind connection - how the body manifests denied aspects of self.

All I can say - to all who have ever been there is - Yep, been there - there is a way out - and Life can be good. Start moving in that direction, one step at a time, one foot in front of the other. Never stop moving - and never give up on yourself. You deserve love, peace and harmony. And one step at a time, you are getting there . . .

 

[Mike Laws]

What a horrible experience to have gone through. I wonder, after being treated like that, what made you stay around buying Scilon products and attending events, working your way up to VIP-status over the following nine years?

My perspective on this stuff keeps evolving, I don't regret anything that has happened to me, I regret some of the things I did, but those that happened to me are part of whome I am. That is not to say I would like for others to experience what I have received.

I love some of the stories that are floating around on me these days! The OSA sec bash was the end of my scientology career and world. I have not FSMed, donated other than a book package and a few token donos to old friends who came a begging, since.

My "VIP status" if you could call it that, was from the 90's, I was a pretty significant FSM, 7 digits I believe for CC Int alone over several years, volunteered full time for almost a year at NN, and helped on everything I could. What is funny is that professionally and business wise I consider myself to have been a failure in the 90s and did not start building real success until the mid 2000s when I was thoroughly out.

Last event I went to was the Dallas Ideal org opening. Still get lots of invitations but don't even have curiosity to go.

That OSA Sec check killed Scientology as anything I wanted in my life.

 

[Mike Laws]

Infinite, Michael has nothing to gain by remembering it all over again and retelling it in detail. The retelling only serves to retraumatize. Let it go. If and when he wants to tell it, he will.

Attempts to reconcile the conflict of right and wrong we were indoctrinated with, as well as the emotional pain of separation from friends, family and business relationships are all factors. I am sure you can find the answers to those sort of questions elsewhere on ESMB without putting him through the pain all over again.

Syn, it's a hideous R/D. I'm sorry you had to go through it, too. It would be helpful if any of the Anons & Ex's on here can find dox or the correlations between FPRD and government mind torture/brainwashing tactics, as I believe that was its purpose all along.

Sheila,

Not that painful to recall, but after a while it is positiveily boring and unprofitable to re-visit and re-gurgitate.

Sheila and Syn,

I believe FPRD is a leading cause of suicididal tendancies in Scientology today.

Imagine this:

High pressure intense sec check, you know you are in trouble and will get in more if you do not appease the sec checker and MAA ... you have to show you are confronting your own evilness ... FALSE PURPOSE RUNDOWN ... to get free ...

Sec checker: Have you stole anything?
PC: Yeah, stole an apple,

Going earlier similar, stole a chocolate bar, sec checker wants bigger stuff. OK, I bought a car for less than it was worth, essentially stealing it from the onwer. Good, now we are getting somewhere.

Intense pressure, you can't leave, are strapped to that damn meter ...

OK, I was out exchange with my parents, did not make as much money as I could have as a kid, costing them more to support me and leaving them with less money to give scientology, which was kind of like stealing ... Good now we are getting somewhere, you have a lifelong tendancy of stealing even from those closest to you.

Earlier similar ...

50,000 years ago I conquered a village with my gang, we stole all the foood and raped all the women ... Great ... what was the false purpose? Would never allow myself to wade in mediocrity, would do anything to stay on top.

And until you needle floats on this hideos crime you don't even believe you commited but dreamed up and have to force yourself to believe so that your needle will float, even if only for giving the sec checker something that makes them feel likethey did something of value and gets you off the hook.

Do this hundreds if not thousands of times.

Crimes, real or imagined being demanded with accute observation for personal remorse in disclosing them ... or else you loose your family, friends, job, career, life, eternity, etc.

Majorly fucked up.

 

[Sindy]

Scientologists are like horses.

At first they enjoy the apples and love of their new owner.

Then the proud day comes that they are fitted with a new saddle so they can be ridden.

And after walking a bit, they triumphantly begin to trot.

Then canter...

And finally gallop at full speed until exhausted.

Then they are mercilessly whipped to go impossibly faster and longer until they drop dead.

Allowing oneself to be saddled and ridden by aggressive cult morons is a form of somewhat unintentional suicide.

The Bridge itself is a slow but always fatal suicide of one's own personality and freedom.

Wow, I am just sitting here shaking my head. This is profound. What a perfect analogy.

 

[Sindy]

Sheila,

Not that painful to recall, but after a while it is positiveily boring and unprofitable to re-visit and re-gurgitate.

Sheila and Syn,

I believe FPRD is a leading cause of suicididal tendancies in Scientology today.

Imagine this:

High pressure intense sec check, you know you are in trouble and will get in more if you do not appease the sec checker and MAA ... you have to show you are confronting your own evilness ... FALSE PURPOSE RUNDOWN ... to get free ...

Sec checker: Have you stole anything?
PC: Yeah, stole an apple,

Going earlier similar, stole a chocolate bar, sec checker wants bigger stuff. OK, I bought a car for less than it was worth, essentially stealing it from the onwer. Good, now we are getting somewhere.

Intense pressure, you can't leave, are strapped to that damn meter ...

OK, I was out exchange with my parents, did not make as much money as I could have as a kid, costing them more to support me and leaving them with less money to give scientology, which was kind of like stealing ... Good now we are getting somewhere, you have a lifelong tendancy of stealing even from those closest to you.

Earlier similar ...

50,000 years ago I conquered a village with my gang, we stole all the foood and raped all the women ... Great ... what was the false purpose? Would never allow myself to wade in mediocrity, would do anything to stay on top.

And until you needle floats on this hideos crime you don't even believe you commited but dreamed up and have to force yourself to believe so that your needle will float, even if only for giving the sec checker something that makes them feel likethey did something of value and gets you off the hook.

Do this hundreds if not thousands of times.

Crimes, real or imagined being demanded with accute observation for personal remorse in disclosing them ... or else you loose your family, friends, job, career, life, eternity, etc.

Majorly fucked up.

Majorly, majorly, MAJORLY fucked up.

 

[Sindy]

My perspective on this stuff keeps evolving, I don't regret anything that has happened to me, I regret some of the things I did, but those that happened to me are part of whome I am. That is not to say I would like for others to experience what I have received.

I love some of the stories that are floating around on me these days! The OSA sec bash was the end of my scientology career and world. I have not FSMed, donated other than a book package and a few token donos to old friends who came a begging, since.

My "VIP status" if you could call it that, was from the 90's, I was a pretty significant FSM, 7 digits I believe for CC Int alone over several years, volunteered full time for almost a year at NN, and helped on everything I could. What is funny is that professionally and business wise I consider myself to have been a failure in the 90s and did not start building real success until the mid 2000s when I was thoroughly out.

Last event I went to was the Dallas Ideal org opening. Still get lots of invitations but don't even have curiosity to go.

That OSA Sec check killed Scientology as anything I wanted in my life.

Thanks Mike. I appreciate you sharing your perspective on all of this and I truly do understand how all of our views continue to evolve.

 

[Mike Laws]

Yes.. I understand that.. I think.. Because I pretended to be a scientologist for 5 or 6 years AFTER I became aware that CoS was poisonous and bad. But I was half-believing still. I thought I was an SP and could not justify my very existence really.

I don't like to talk about it, but I was suicidal! - What kept me going was my inherent skeptisism. Or put another way. Doubt is what saved me and ultimatly restored my sanity.. Curious isn't it?

I didn't consider the question about us being spiritual beings that live on after we're dead, and not gone anyway, for settled. This was a mystery for me as I reckoned it should be.

And I had doubts about myself being an SP too..

I had no doubts about Scientology being an evil totalitarian group. One view I had then, was that CoS really was a triage operation. The purpose of which was to 'root out SP's'.. Cave them in when 'discovered' to make them kill themselves if at all possible. Or even 'help' them if 'feasible'.. Ref. Fair Game policies.

Well, I skated quickly over all that in my own story too.

I remember observing at one point that allmost all of the people I really liked in Scientology had at some point wondered seriously whether or not they were SP. Interestingly, many of those I didn't like told me they never had the thought that they may have been SP.

Your point on your skepticism keeping you away from suicidal actions is very interesting.

In mine, I never thought the traditional dark thoughts that others seem to write about. Mine was more mechanical or logical, maybe robotic is the right word. Bad thing needs to be gotten rid of. Joan even wanted to know how I was thinking about doing it so that it wouldn't come back on the church. I bet that was left out of the work sheets!!