The Fishman Affidavit

[SchwimmelPuckel]

<snip>.. about the veracity of the Fishman OTVIII allegations and it seems generally accepted that it's bullshit.

Yes. but we don't really need to make a lot of 'publicity' about this instance where it seems like the critics of CoS played false..

We do need to highlight all the many instances where The Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology played false! - We need to remind people and authorities that the scamcult has DOCTRINE, written by their Guru, the malevolent charlatan L.Ron Hubbard, that makes it their holy duty to manipulate, hoodwink, comfound and cheat the legal system..

A legal system that Scientology, by policy, considers insane and supressive. Scientology is in contempt of the courts by their own policies and conscious decision!

By rights, the courts all over the world should really start any trial with a hefty fine to Scientology for contempt!

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Oh, I dunno. Lots of kinds of threads here. This is just one moar.

 

[guanoloco]

Lets take the win and celebrate the Fishman Affidavit and all those involved in bringing the material into the public discourse and showing the cult up, again, for its inherent dishonesty.

Hey, that's just like the "greatest good for the greatest number"! Let's don't care if Fishman is a fraud - look how much good came out of it.

 

[guanoloco]

We need to remind people and authorities that the scamcult has DOCTRINE, written by their Guru, the malevolnet charlatan L.Ron Hubbard, that makes it their holy duty to manipulate, hoodwink, comfound and cheat the legal system..

A legal system that Scientology, by policy, considers insane and supressive. Scientology is in contempt of the courts by their own policies and conscieous decision!

This is hilarious! Great acuity, Schwimmie!

"Cheat" certainly describes Hubbard in virtually everything he did...like the way the "church" entered Clearwater all on the sly and covert-like.

Never an honest deed or word.

No wonder it needs such a vast and busy operation like it's PR division to offset all the negative press about its day-to-day operation.

Kind of like "we refuse to wash our feet; therefore, we need to employ the maid and mop to follow us wherever we go".

All this from the author of "Clean Hands Make a Happy Life" or whatever.

 

[AnonKat]

Even Anonymous recognized it to be bullshit and not of Hubbard's hand

 

[AnonKat]

Even Anonymous recognized it to be bullshit and not of Hubbard's hand

The lulz are in the fact that at some point Moxon claimed it to be sekrit church scripture and therefor copyrighted

 

[Jump]

Fishman may have been called on one thing - but the great value is that he was fully deluded by the cult and pushed to the brink of insanity (and probably beyond). Check the videos and decide for yourself. There are hours of video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7J00_m75WQ&feature=related

 

[Good twin]

No Jump. Fishman was batshit crazy before he walked in the door of the Scam Cult. He actually barely got past the door. He had an impressive psychiatric history and staff were pretty careful because of it.

 

[Good twin]

Oh yeah. He bought every reel to reel tape he could find at every Org or mission he could find. LOL

That's why he's such an expert.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

No Jump. Fishman was batshit crazy before he walked in the door of the Scam Cult. He actually barely got past the door. He had an impressive psychiatric history and staff were pretty careful because of it.

Yeah, he didn't need Scientology to make him batshit crazy, he was already certified 'OT' before he walked in the door

 

[Jump]

Yeah, he didn't need Scientology to make him batshit crazy, he was already certified 'OT' before he walked in the door

So why didn't the follow their own procedure and show him out the door?

Oh, that's right - greatest good . . . he had lots of


$ $ $


So they played him until he was too much a liability?

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

So why didn't the follow their own procedure and show him out the door?

Oh, that's right - greatest good . . . he had lots of


$ $ $


So they played him until he was too much a liability?

Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung, Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot est could have all been saved with Hubbard's Cult Tech, but if you stand between Hubbard Cult and a Dollar, ... you are damned for eternity, there will never be any redemption for you.

 

[guanoloco]

So why didn't the follow their own procedure and show him out the door?

Oh, that's right - greatest good . . . he had lots of


$ $ $


So they played him until he was too much a liability?

To my knowledge the procedure is that if you've got a psych history your only recourse is training. Therefore Fishman could buy any and all materials that weren't opted out by having a certain case level for access (Class VIII materials, etc.).

Eventually, by means of petition, said person could eventually get auditing.

This was apparently the case with Jan Eastgate and would've been the route for Fishman.

 

[Challenge]

Hey, that's just like the "greatest good for the greatest number"! Let's don't care if Fishman is a fraud - look how much good came out of it.

Fishman fishman fishman.
Fishman is a red herring.
It doesn't matter a rat's ass if the Fishman affadavit ifs false. FISHMAN DID NOT ORIGINATE THAT OT 8 DOCUMENT.

Fishman was/is a fraud. No one disputes that.
Why even read his affadavit? We know that he is a liar.

In or around 1983-84 the OT8 document hit a sliver of the Independent Field. It was not widely circulated. It was handed to a few Cl 8 or above auditors.
Fishman obviously was not one of them. I don't know where he got his issue, nor do I know if he edited it, nor do I care.

Today, with the Jan Eastgate trial, the publishing of an exrtaordinary new expose of the cult, and several other HOT topics of conversation, it is a waste of time to be looking at a phony doc from a court case from years and years ago.






Challenge

 

[Pooks]

Fishman fishman fishman.
Fishman is a red herring.
It doesn't matter a rat's ass if the Fishman affadavit ifs false. FISHMAN DID NOT ORIGINATE THAT OT 8 DOCUMENT.

Fishman was/is a fraud. No one disputes that.
Why even read his affadavit? We know that he is a liar.

In or around 1983-84 the OT8 document hit a sliver of the Independent Field. It was not widely circulated. It was handed to a few Cl 8 or above auditors.
Fishman obviously was not one of them. I don't know where he got his issue, nor do I know if he edited it, nor do I care.

Today, with the Jan Eastgate trial, the publishing of an exrtaordinary new expose of the cult, and several other HOT topics of conversation, it is a waste of time to be looking at a phony doc from a court case from years and years ago.


Challenge

I agree with all but your last sentence. It's always OK to talk about the past. Discussing "history" should never get old. There's always newbies joining the message board who don't have the facts yet.

If you are tired of a certain discussion, then don't join in.

 

[Infinite]

Hey, that's just like the "greatest good for the greatest number"! Let's don't care if Fishman is a fraud - look how much good came out of it.

Sure, if "dynamics" are the same as "innocents" who, in the absence of knowledge about the OT materials, might otherwise have joined a UFO cult.

 

[Infinite]

Fishman fishman fishman.
Fishman is a red herring.
It doesn't matter a rat's ass if the Fishman affadavit ifs false. FISHMAN DID NOT ORIGINATE THAT OT 8 DOCUMENT.

Fishman was/is a fraud. No one disputes that.
Why even read his affadavit? We know that he is a liar.

In or around 1983-84 the OT8 document hit a sliver of the Independent Field. It was not widely circulated. It was handed to a few Cl 8 or above auditors.
Fishman obviously was not one of them. I don't know where he got his issue, nor do I know if he edited it, nor do I care.

Today, with the Jan Eastgate trial, the publishing of an exrtaordinary new expose of the cult, and several other HOT topics of conversation, it is a waste of time to be looking at a phony doc from a court case from years and years ago.

But its not just the OT8 DOX. There are others in the affidavit that are not phony and are definitely worth looking at. The story of how the OT materials made it into the public arena is an important one with several lessons to be learned. Fishman is almost incidental to the result because it was Scientology itself which confirmed the veracity of the other OT 1-7 information. Perhaps we owe more thanks to Moxin and Cooley than Mr Fishman.

 

[Pooks]

Sure, if "dynamics" are the same as "innocents" who, in the absence of knowledge about the OT materials, might otherwise have joined a UFO cult.

Fishman is a confirmed nutcase, liar, fraud. I get your point, discussion is always good but when it's based on truth mixed with lies and fraud, I'm not sure it's so good. Yes, it's true that maybe some didn't join the cult because they read Fishman's junk, but it muddies up the truth and makes it look like Scn critics are all nutcases, rather than just a few of us. It also gives OSA ammo when a nutcase does shit like this.

 

[Infinite]

Fishman is a confirmed nutcase, liar, fraud. I get your point, discussion is always good but when it's based on truth mixed with lies and fraud, I'm not sure it's so good. Yes, it's true that maybe some didn't join the cult because they read Fishman's junk, but it muddies up the truth and makes it look like Scn critics are all nutcases, rather than just a few of us. It also gives OSA ammo when a nutcase does shit like this.

Sure. The OTVIII material was probably phony and, I suspect, probably also a product of Scientology itself, "leaked" deliberately to poison the independent pursuit of the tech. At the time it must have been a great joke for Scientology to watch its critics splattering bullshit across the net. Perhaps that's a part of the reason Moxin initially lent the document validity by stating that it was genuine.

And, yes, I understand the need to be exact in one's criticism, its something I'm slowly learning myself. Fortunately, it turned out that all but one document was genuine Scientology supah sekrit scripture and those other documents still serve as an important tool today. That was my point; not that lies were used to inoculate but, rather, the Fishman Affidavit still provided the other material. And the lesson - trust but verify, especially if one is going to mouth off.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Perhaps that's a part of the reason Moxin initially lent the document validity by stating that it was genuine.

Moxon probably didn't know one way or the other; same for Cooley. It's not like the genuine articles were on their desks and could be referred to at any time for verification purposes.

This was 1993. Neither had done OT VIII (released in 1988), so they would have had to ask about the thing. Since it wasn't in the regular OT VIII pack, asking someone who had done OT VIII wouldn't help. So it's a question of determining if it had been written by Hubbard. How do you do that? Who would know? I would guess that they asked Mithoff or Miscavige, but I have no idea what actually happened. The thing is that Cooley wouldn't know from his own experience either way, only what he was told.

Paul