Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
The Newtonian version is quit different, in that it idealizes time, Lakey. Time and Space appear there as distinct. In the spacetime version there is no time insofar as time is an dimension of space.
I believe that is basically what I said in my post, maybe I didn't express it clearly but that's what I was attempting to say.
The reason I care at all has nothing to do with mincing physics. It has to do with interest in how elimination of time affects the way humans understand consciousness and thinking. If the model of reality conforms to a view in which time does not exist then this affects the way humans understand metaphysics, their spiritual nature; specifically it affects the way scn models reality and devises its cures. It affects it because the time track, engrams, as-ising, and most every construct including hubbards adoption of the Freudian unconscious goes out the window since they all require a false foundation in time and since they reinforce a psychology of time, the solidity of time.
When something is said, like there is no time, it affects other truths. There is no vaccuum in which to accept quantum physics and yet continue to slumber in the fairytale of time as real. Sure, for practical purposes we can note time, as a measurement of movement. To base a metaphysical 'tech' on time however is a problem. I posted not really to discuss physics. But to discuss the consequences of the above in relation to the mind. How is the fact of no time affect the human animal? Not at all since usually he refuses to believe or accept it and continues to think in time-forms. To stay in time-forms is fine. All of the CoS processes except objectives are stuck in time forms. A FZ solution would be to run incidents by asking where it is not when, I mean physically in relation to the client. How far is it from you now. Or where do you believe in time? Find that location, Etc.
Oi Vey! Talk about thinking outside the box, the concept of a metaphysical existence with no time is not only out of the box but out of this universe!!
I see not just Hubbard's technologies being torpedoed out of existence but most other subjects suffering the same fate. Of course, physics would go down the drain, chemistry as well, music, painting, dramas, cinemas and just about all art other than still art vanish as well. A better question might be to ask, "what remains?" Still art would remain, calculus would vanish in a heart beat but other more basic concepts of math might be possible, such as addition and subtraction, although those concepts imply change and change does tend to suggest time passage. What appears to remain is that empty space is possible, a spirit is possible and a spirit occupying a space is possible.
Running incidents by asking where instead of when seems plausible at first but I do see some difficulties. Let's examine a hypothetical dianetics session using a "where" question instead of a "when" question. Here we go, "Move to the beginning of the incident and tell me when you are there.", the pc answers and the auditor says good. Next the auditor says where was that incident? the pc gives the auditor the coordinates of the incident with respect to their present location, Let's say the pc says the location was the northwest corner of 5th and Main in Philadelphia. Now, we cannot ask when that was because there is no time. You know where but you are left with unknowns. More than one incident could have occurred there, how does one select which particular incident on the basis of location alone?
One positive from all this, we can add one more item which is possible in a no time model of the universe, that item being that space can be separated into more than just one point, i.e there can be as many points in space as one choses.
However, this realization Immediately this brings up more problems. How was the pc able to experience an incident at 5th and Main and be at some different location NOW. It seems to me that at that instant of recognition where a being realize he WAS at 5th and Main in Philly but is no longer there, the concept of time immediately comes back into existence!!!
Really, that is it in a nutshell, to move from one point of space to another, mechanics has to enter into the mix and with the mechanics comes the concept of movement from one location to another and with that, as long as a spiritual being has a memory, some version of time passage must be postulated to exist, using the English definition for postulate and not Hubbard's
JUST LOOKING FROM THE METAPHYSICAL SIDE OF LIFE AT A NOT TIME MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE
Up to know, I have been playing Devil's advocate with you, Maria. That being said, I admit that I do see that looking at a NO TIME MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE DOES HAVE POTENTIAL TO POSSIBLY GET A DEEPER AND FULLER UNDERSTANDING OF THE BASIC NATURE OF WHAT WE SPIRITUAL BEINGS ARE. Giving up the concept of time, all sorts of variable are removed from life as we currently know and live it in this realm of existence. Giving up the concept of time is an extreme effort to think outside the box. Using such a technique seems very clever to me in that so many of the myriad portions of life are eliminated from what we have to think about so that we can zero in our limited mental reasoning powers into a much smaller zone than before and more likely than not come up with some new realizations which might not have otherwise been possible.
LOOKING AT A PING PONG GAME WITH NEW NET OR NO PING PONG BALL
A metaphor might be to play ping pong without a net or in the extreme case without a ping pong ball and attempt to get more insight into the game. For removing the net, many of the functions of the game are eliminated but much still remains. If one visualizes playing the game without a net, the chances are that you will gain more insights into playing the standard game. Get even more extreme by taking away the ping pong ball but go ahead and put back the net and even more functions of the game are eliminated and if you attempt to play a game without the ball, you may well hit on some new breakthrough about the game or you might not. Eliminate both the net and the ball, and to much is removed, if you attempt a game with both key elements removed, you are not likely to learn anything and are more likely to be just wasting your time.
So, in concluding, I agree with Maria that studying a model of the universe with no time may well lead those making such studies into new insights about the nature of the spirit.
Lakey
