Well, reading the book will clarify things for you, but, Nancy's RPF experience and pregnancy was prior to the mandated abortions and offloading. And, it was Ron himself who ordered her to the RPF, in full knowledge of her pregnancy.
Zinj
The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But
- Thread starter lkwdblds
- Start date
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Well, reading the book will clarify things for you, but, Nancy's RPF experience and pregnancy was prior to the mandated abortions and offloading. And, it was Ron himself who ordered her to the RPF, in full knowledge of her pregnancy.
Zinj
lkwdblds
Crusader
Oh my God!
Oh my God! are you kidding me. I am going to pick up my book next Saturday. I have got to read this. What about Mary Sue, she was always sympathetic to motherhood, children and families, did she try and help Nancy? If not, then another Icon I admired in my Universe is going to bite the dust.
Lakey
Oh my God! are you kidding me. I am going to pick up my book next Saturday. I have got to read this. What about Mary Sue, she was always sympathetic to motherhood, children and families, did she try and help Nancy? If not, then another Icon I admired in my Universe is going to bite the dust.
Lakey
Daddio
Patron with Honors
You'll really enjoy the book, Lakey. You and I are on opposite books - I just got my copy of BFG in the post yesterday, but read Nancy's when it first came out. Happy reading!
Alan
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
The truth hurts sometimes...
Thank you Zinji, I didn't want to be the one to burst Lakey's bubble on this. Sometimes it is good to learn these bad news types of things on a gradient, instead of all at once. It's easier to assimilate the information that way. Lakey, it's hard to have someone you admired, trusted and whose works you followed so loyally and so long go from hero to zero in your mind so rapidly, that's a lot of adjusting to do. But in the end, we both know that it really is better to as-is the whole scene of Ron and the history of Scientology, and how it has effected those involved. I'm glad you're going to read Nancy's book.
Thank you Zinji, I didn't want to be the one to burst Lakey's bubble on this. Sometimes it is good to learn these bad news types of things on a gradient, instead of all at once. It's easier to assimilate the information that way. Lakey, it's hard to have someone you admired, trusted and whose works you followed so loyally and so long go from hero to zero in your mind so rapidly, that's a lot of adjusting to do. But in the end, we both know that it really is better to as-is the whole scene of Ron and the history of Scientology, and how it has effected those involved. I'm glad you're going to read Nancy's book.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Thank you Zinji, I didn't want to be the one to burst Lakey's bubble on this. Sometimes it is good to learn these bad news types of things on a gradient, instead of all at once. It's easier to assimilate the information that way. Lakey, it's hard to have someone you admired, trusted and whose works you followed so loyally and so long go from hero to zero in your mind so rapidly, that's a lot of adjusting to do. But in the end, we both know that it really is better to as-is the whole scene of Ron and the history of Scientology, and how it has effected those involved. I'm glad you're going to read Nancy's book.
In all truth, in the 60s and early 70s a lot of us were quite aware that LRH was not even remotely perfect. The rumor line was strong and accurate.
Artie Maren, when he was the high muckey muck of the GO, showed a friend the (secret) LRH order to smash my friend and his friends despite public LRH statement(s) to the contrary. We knew the ruthless backstabber for who he was. We had enough good stuff going (auditing and training successes in the missions) that it outweighed the rotten apple of management.
We, all shared info. You might call it intelligence. The organization went more off track, away from expansion of knowledge to mean spirited greed and consolidation of (evil) powers.
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lkwdblds
Crusader
Really Interesting
This is really interesting, Carmelo, I never heard one bad word about LRH in the entire 31 years I was active. It was blashpemous to discuss such things and no one did it. If anyone had done so, they probably would have been quickly off loaded.
What ever happened to Artie Maren? Didn't he go to prison along with Mary Sue and others? His Mother in Law, Adelle Vonnie, was my Purchasing Officer at CCLA. Her daughter was Mary Marin whom I never met. Artie and Mary were both based in L.A. in the early 70's I believe, is this correct?
Lakey
This is really interesting, Carmelo, I never heard one bad word about LRH in the entire 31 years I was active. It was blashpemous to discuss such things and no one did it. If anyone had done so, they probably would have been quickly off loaded.
What ever happened to Artie Maren? Didn't he go to prison along with Mary Sue and others? His Mother in Law, Adelle Vonnie, was my Purchasing Officer at CCLA. Her daughter was Mary Marin whom I never met. Artie and Mary were both based in L.A. in the early 70's I believe, is this correct?
Lakey
Enthetan
Master of Disaster
The problem that LRH (and later DM) faced was that he could get stone-cold sons of bitches to carry out his management will, but he needed people who were kind and good to successfully deliver to the public. The problem was how to maintain the illusions that needed to be maintained in order to retain the latter group and not have them walk out in disgust.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
The truth will come out!
Thanks for sharing this perspective, Carmelo. Although I wasn't really involved, it is what I observed and heard about at our local Mission during the late 70's and especially the early 80's, before the takeover by DM and RTC. I agree, the grapevine was up and functioning. Ron was leading the charge to undercut and gut the mission system before DM completed the task, due to greed and power, as you said, so far as I could see of the local scene from here.
Very good point Enthetan, I think that is still true today in some places, and why some public or low level staff Scientologists don't believe much of what is being reported currently, because from their perspective, all the Scientologists they have ever know have been really nice, good people, who mean well, and want to "help".
Lakey, I absolutely believe you that this "entheta" bypassed you at the time. I know my former SO friend experienced much the same. The compartmentalization and secrecy in Corporate Scientology is amazing, it was designed to be that way to better control people and circumstances. It was all part of Ron's game; "the only way to control people is to lie to them." Sigh.
I really think it's time now for all the truth about Scientology to come out fully. That's why it's so important for everyone reading and writing here, and elsewhere on the Internet, to share their stories and experiences, and why we should support and distribute the vids and books being created, etc.
Keep talking!
Thanks for sharing this perspective, Carmelo. Although I wasn't really involved, it is what I observed and heard about at our local Mission during the late 70's and especially the early 80's, before the takeover by DM and RTC. I agree, the grapevine was up and functioning. Ron was leading the charge to undercut and gut the mission system before DM completed the task, due to greed and power, as you said, so far as I could see of the local scene from here.
Very good point Enthetan, I think that is still true today in some places, and why some public or low level staff Scientologists don't believe much of what is being reported currently, because from their perspective, all the Scientologists they have ever know have been really nice, good people, who mean well, and want to "help".
Lakey, I absolutely believe you that this "entheta" bypassed you at the time. I know my former SO friend experienced much the same. The compartmentalization and secrecy in Corporate Scientology is amazing, it was designed to be that way to better control people and circumstances. It was all part of Ron's game; "the only way to control people is to lie to them." Sigh.
I really think it's time now for all the truth about Scientology to come out fully. That's why it's so important for everyone reading and writing here, and elsewhere on the Internet, to share their stories and experiences, and why we should support and distribute the vids and books being created, etc.
Keep talking!
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
More history...
Just want to share this from another thread, might be helpful here:
"Dianetics in Limbo, an excellent resource.
It shows that Hubbard's research and management style was well in place before 1964.
Dianetics in Limbo (Drat, that was supposed to be a link...just Google it.)
Lionheart said:
"There is very little evidence that Ron was a Scientologist! This idea usuallly gets mostly ignored by ESMBers.
But where is the evidence that he actually ran much of scientology on his "case"?
His Grades were certainly "out" almost all the time. So from this I conclude that he never really ran much lower level stuff himself. Even wrongly run in the wrong order the gardes processes would have given him some ease from his out-ruds distress that he manifested!
We don't know if he ran OTIII or GPMs on himself much or whether he just intuited implants etc due to some non-standard, non-scn, "psychic" procedures.
He certainly has a track record of tossing off "tech" without much apparent thought or research.
Refer to Helen O'Brien's "Dianetics in Limbo" where she describes his lecture style and behaviour at the Philadelphia Doctorate course, that she set up for him.
Or refer to the only known recorded "research" procedure of Ron's when Mary Sue "audited" him in 1951 (I think) and he fished around for meter verification of his whole track opera, and when she told him the needle went "pow" on his "discovery" of beings called Targs.
We know David Mayo "developed" NOTs from "auditing" Ron, but we don't know how different the Mayo NOTs processes are to what Ron "ran" in session with Mayo.
We know Otto Roos says Ron's folders were a non-standard mess of "processes". I suspect these were similar fish and fumble techniques that Ron called "research", similar to Mary Sue's squirrel auditing of him on Targs.
This is the only evidence we have as to how "standard" Ron's own application of his tech was.
So my contention is that Ron was not a scientologist in any form that we would recognise as one. Of course, also, many of his SO orders and SO clap-trap are in direct contradiction to scientology basics.
So Ron, the non-scientologist, created an equal non-scientologist called Xenu who had all the promised scientology abilities, just as he himself had, even though neither of them were scientologists!"
Ted answered: One of LRH's repeated statements is a magician's rule that one must not become effect of one's own cause.
I agree. LRH was not a scientologist. Probably in his mind, he was Source (the Magician)."
Just want to share this from another thread, might be helpful here:
"Dianetics in Limbo, an excellent resource.
It shows that Hubbard's research and management style was well in place before 1964.
Dianetics in Limbo (Drat, that was supposed to be a link...just Google it.)
Lionheart said:
"There is very little evidence that Ron was a Scientologist! This idea usuallly gets mostly ignored by ESMBers.
But where is the evidence that he actually ran much of scientology on his "case"?
His Grades were certainly "out" almost all the time. So from this I conclude that he never really ran much lower level stuff himself. Even wrongly run in the wrong order the gardes processes would have given him some ease from his out-ruds distress that he manifested!
We don't know if he ran OTIII or GPMs on himself much or whether he just intuited implants etc due to some non-standard, non-scn, "psychic" procedures.
He certainly has a track record of tossing off "tech" without much apparent thought or research.
Refer to Helen O'Brien's "Dianetics in Limbo" where she describes his lecture style and behaviour at the Philadelphia Doctorate course, that she set up for him.
Or refer to the only known recorded "research" procedure of Ron's when Mary Sue "audited" him in 1951 (I think) and he fished around for meter verification of his whole track opera, and when she told him the needle went "pow" on his "discovery" of beings called Targs.
We know David Mayo "developed" NOTs from "auditing" Ron, but we don't know how different the Mayo NOTs processes are to what Ron "ran" in session with Mayo.
We know Otto Roos says Ron's folders were a non-standard mess of "processes". I suspect these were similar fish and fumble techniques that Ron called "research", similar to Mary Sue's squirrel auditing of him on Targs.
This is the only evidence we have as to how "standard" Ron's own application of his tech was.
So my contention is that Ron was not a scientologist in any form that we would recognise as one. Of course, also, many of his SO orders and SO clap-trap are in direct contradiction to scientology basics.
So Ron, the non-scientologist, created an equal non-scientologist called Xenu who had all the promised scientology abilities, just as he himself had, even though neither of them were scientologists!"
Ted answered: One of LRH's repeated statements is a magician's rule that one must not become effect of one's own cause.
I agree. LRH was not a scientologist. Probably in his mind, he was Source (the Magician)."
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Artie Schmartie is still "in"
Mary Maren and Artie are divorced. It's been a while. Mary Maren married
( I couldn't resist that)
Frankie Freedman a little over thirty years ago.
Frankie Freedman became Franklin Freeman.
Now say that three time fast.
So, if you read about Mary Freeman, you're reading about Mary, who has been famous for her (pick at least one) her speeches, her ethics handlings, her auditing, her training seminars for decades.
Mary and Franklin live in Idaho. They are a party to the next Freezone Convention in (go figure) Idaho.
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
They are co-hosting the convention with friends. The convention is slated for Spokane, Washington, which is "just over the border" from Idaho.
Mark A. Baker
Blue Spirit
Silver Meritorious Patron
Franklin Meaning
The name Franklin means Free Man as a root back to the middle ages owners of their own land, not the serfs or noblemen.
The name Franklin means Free Man as a root back to the middle ages owners of their own land, not the serfs or noblemen.
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CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
So .... do you want me to tell Frankie that you think he's redundant?
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Well, other than Gonzaga, where we had a kid attending, as Gertrude Stein said (about Oakland - even before the Raiders), "There's no there, there)
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Ok Lakey,
The week end is over. We are having a surprise quiz on Nancy Many's book. let's hope you did your homework.
First question: When Chris and Nancy were busted at CC, who was busted with them?
This is not an open book quiz.
Extra points if you can name her last name.
Extra extra points if you can name her former boyfriend, who was famous as the hot tempered Class Xll on board the Apollo, who punched people out before DM popularized it.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
[/B]
AMEN to that, Sister!Hope you all have a ton of fun on your winter holiday family vacation!
At the end of the day(s), there is the discovery of new muscles that I had forgotten about after last April May.
a generous helping of pizza and beer plus family gathered around sharing the warmth and fun of the day makes it all perfect.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Wrapping up the bit about Mary and Artie:
Artie was the GO in the US.
When Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier, he became a highly esteemed and copied man by pilots everywhere. His laid back way of talking was imitated on every single commercial plane I ever flew on for decades. That (pilot comes on the intercom) and casually says there appears to be a bit of a storm up ahead and would the crew and passengers return to their seats and fasten your seat belts. Casual drawl. Everything is fine, it's just a measly ole hurricane and we've lost an engine, we'll be landing on time on the one tire that we have left. Thank you for flying with us.
That same kind of imprint on a group of people you can still see. Artie, in the 60s and 70s was the only person with greasy slicked back black hair. Check out Anne Archer's son's hair. And before him, Mike Rinder. Artie had that hair first, and he left big boots to fill.
Mary was in LA in the 70s. A good friend of ours, was a Sea Org member, a class Vlll, and had been one of the only two Vllls not overboarded on the first Vlll course. Mary worked her (Mary's) ethics magic on her friend. Our friend realized that she was in treason on the first dynamic. She was in power as an auditor and C/S. As a result of her working with Mary, our friend quit the SO, and with her husband, they started a garment business that went to multi million dollars yearly in a few years.
Mary is the cream of the cream.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
org vs. mission mind sets
I wasn't as aware of this back then, as I am now, but there was a major difference in the mind sets of center / mission staff and org staff.
Org staff were more "follow the book" inculcated.
Center staff were results oriented. It was "tacit policy" to make things go right first, last, and foremost. It was better to act, and apologize later, than try to get a CSW approved.
If a staff auditor was declared SP by some other org, such as Peter Rundberg, when he was working at Santa Clara in 1969, he didn't get disconnected from, in actual fact, he was expected to audit his PCs and get on with it. The center made the rules, not nobody else.
If your star football player came back from ASHO and power processing, saying he didn't want to be in Scientology anymore, you got a call from Artie, and Artie sent you his PC folder and you repaired him in your office. There was no discussing this with ASHO.
The communication among mission holders and staffs was extraordinary. A friend got a call from his sister telling him that she heard he was leaving the center he was at -- before he told anyone he was going.
So when it came to intel on LRH, there was no delusion.
When I went down to LA for Clear and OT, my friends, the staff, warned me about the "Sea Org cognition"- it was something everybody had, but you just say to yourself, "You're crazy right now, this will pass" They were right. I had it, and I just told myself I was nuts, and tomorrow it would be different.
When Rocky Stump was C/S at ASHO, and a couple gave him an E Type as a thank you present. The writing was on the wall. Rocky got invited to Flag. Ron picked him up, personally, and took him to the boat. He praised Rocky. before Rocky was back in LA, he was declared.
Nobody from the missions was even remotely surprised.
When Alan Albert, who had been a comm course sup at Palo Alto was doing the bc (when James Hare ran the show), Alan was a "go to guy" on tech from fellow students. He had seen LRH initiate quickie grades and had seen LRH blame others for them. He knew the score, and told anyone, who wanted, the references. We (mission people) were not in awe or suppressed into Ron bot valences. We liked Scientology, but we were not wearing blinders.
Now, if you are reading this next paragraph, and you say to yourself, "He's giving out my session data." I'm not. You were one of many.
I've done enough S & Ds on auditors, mission holders, etc. LRH came up as the "why" - "who" on more than one occasion.
I'm sorry if I've stepped too roughly on anyone's toes.
I wasn't as aware of this back then, as I am now, but there was a major difference in the mind sets of center / mission staff and org staff.
Org staff were more "follow the book" inculcated.
Center staff were results oriented. It was "tacit policy" to make things go right first, last, and foremost. It was better to act, and apologize later, than try to get a CSW approved.
If a staff auditor was declared SP by some other org, such as Peter Rundberg, when he was working at Santa Clara in 1969, he didn't get disconnected from, in actual fact, he was expected to audit his PCs and get on with it. The center made the rules, not nobody else.
If your star football player came back from ASHO and power processing, saying he didn't want to be in Scientology anymore, you got a call from Artie, and Artie sent you his PC folder and you repaired him in your office. There was no discussing this with ASHO.
The communication among mission holders and staffs was extraordinary. A friend got a call from his sister telling him that she heard he was leaving the center he was at -- before he told anyone he was going.
So when it came to intel on LRH, there was no delusion.
When I went down to LA for Clear and OT, my friends, the staff, warned me about the "Sea Org cognition"- it was something everybody had, but you just say to yourself, "You're crazy right now, this will pass" They were right. I had it, and I just told myself I was nuts, and tomorrow it would be different.
When Rocky Stump was C/S at ASHO, and a couple gave him an E Type as a thank you present. The writing was on the wall. Rocky got invited to Flag. Ron picked him up, personally, and took him to the boat. He praised Rocky. before Rocky was back in LA, he was declared.
Nobody from the missions was even remotely surprised.
When Alan Albert, who had been a comm course sup at Palo Alto was doing the bc (when James Hare ran the show), Alan was a "go to guy" on tech from fellow students. He had seen LRH initiate quickie grades and had seen LRH blame others for them. He knew the score, and told anyone, who wanted, the references. We (mission people) were not in awe or suppressed into Ron bot valences. We liked Scientology, but we were not wearing blinders.
Now, if you are reading this next paragraph, and you say to yourself, "He's giving out my session data." I'm not. You were one of many.
I've done enough S & Ds on auditors, mission holders, etc. LRH came up as the "why" - "who" on more than one occasion.
I'm sorry if I've stepped too roughly on anyone's toes.
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CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
As a general rule, I think the good guys tended to hang in there for one another.
When Kingsley Wimbush and Clay Primrose of Santa Clara in 1980 were eaten up and spit out, their friends (both in and out) helped them instantly and without reservation.
I gave Clay a job the next day, and a friend gave him a session. No comm lag.
Look at this group of rag tag exes. I seriously doubt any of us beat people up.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
very apt quote. I agree.
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