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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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Had a wonderful Thanksgiving…hope all y’all had the same. Got together with friends and family and we made an exquisite traditional meal…roast turkey, cornbread/French bread herb stuffing with giblet gravy, sweet spiced yam casserole topped with marshmallows, seasoned green beans with onion and bacon, tossed baby romaine salad with tomato and avocado, copper penny marinated carrots, fluffy yeast rolls, olive and relish tray, pecan pie, pumpkin pie, pumpkin crème brulee and all accompanied with champagne, pinot grigio and port. Loving family, great friends and good food…so much to be thankful for.

Re: the OSA “divide and conquer” comments on this thread and some of the FZ/ESMB “snafu” threads, here are my comments from awhile back re: “divide and conquer” on Mike Laws excellent thread…for those that have an interest.
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=500293&postcount=94

Re: Apollo thread “stats”…I have no data to support this but I think that there are a large number of lurkers and Newbie/recent ESMBers that are reading through various “epochs” of the movable feast here. This thread is now over 9,000posts long and, most importantly, thousands of those posts contain a wealth of very valuable information re: El Ron and all manner of things Scn that is thoughtful, accurate and well written. There is solid and very helpful information on the pages of the Apollo thread that is not to be found anywhere else in an organic, fractal and natural presentation format.

Reading a well conducted dialogue or inquiry driven “case history” is one of the most effective ways to learn and acquire knowledge and the simple act of reading such actually engages the individual into participation in the process and the moment—whether or not they post. It allows someone to “make up their own mind” about things instead of having others trying to forcefully make up their mind for them. For folks that are still “in” but questioning, “out” but teetering, “ex” but not sure how far ex they want to go or actually are, and for never “ins” in the first place the Apollo thread—around, amongst and within all its horsing around, entertaining sidebars, fascinating trivia and amazing cornucopia of "blasts from the past"—is a unique resource and all that have contributed to it should be pleased with and proud of their participation.

Thank you, Lakey for planting and thank you Carmelo and Sweetness for helping to water and tend a garden that will, come what may, keep on giving and giving.

Face:)

Face, our meal was almost identical except for more deserts, tiramisu, NY style cheesecake, apple pie with the crumbly topping and more booze, beer, pinot noir, champagne. I had forgotten to mention we had guests from Russia, Italy, Côte d'Ivoire, and France, along with the usual suspects.

the interactive nature of these threads and this whole ESMB just makes one want to add to the contributions wherever you see something that triggers a memory or a different way of looking.
 
This is kind of stupid and all about me, but I never missed the water till the well ran dry. With the success story thread vanished, here is one of my best success stories, written by Dr. Max Sandor a long time ago.





Prime Axioms: A Modern View of the 'Gunas' Principle

One of the greatest and most important discoveries
in the history of philosophy was the revelation
of the 'gunas-principle' in Ancient India.

Unfortunately, it is now one of the most ignored
and underestimated principles.

It comes therefore as quite a surprise that 'modern'
philosophers (not from the institutionalized
mainstream, mind you!) have discovered this principle
anew and they did so rather indepedently.

While the Indian approach appeared to be isolating
the core elements of the character of a human
Being through intense and prolonged meditation,
the modern Western approach arrived at it mainly
by looking at the sequence of lives of Beings and
through theoretical speculation.

Drawing a chart of the life sequence of a Being
results in a table that is called a line plot.

One of the most striking properties of such a
line plot is the alternation of the 'main'
(or 'central') valences of a person from one lifetime
to the next.

Frequent paradigm sets are beggar/millionaire,
saint/criminal, genius/imbecile, adventurer/couch potato,
traditionalist/revolutionary etc, etc. and the
individual sets remain surprisingly similar over
incredible long time periods.

Yet there are also different for every human Being.

The question arises: is there a basic set of
qualities with which these core paradigms align?

And, if so, is there a way to access these
core paradigms within a reasonable time and
using reasonable effort?

Once found and understood, what impact will it
have on the future course of lives of a Being?

The Indian approach was to find the common
denominator in the extremes of an individual
set of paradigms.

One component, called 'ragas', was the outgoing,
'positive', bright, and conquering side.

The other component, called 'tamas' was the
introverted, 'negative', dark, and defeated side.

Both are gaining their power through the spark
of pure intention, called 'sattva'.

This triad of qualities, the 'gunas', was said
to be the principal construct determining the
individual human character.

Its discovery through isolation of the core
qualities within the jungle of human emotions
and behavior patterns was therefore of crucial
importance and a focal point in ancient meditation
techniques.

While the circumstance that every Being has
its very own set of core qualities was largely
lost over time, the basic philosophy of the
'gunas' is still present in today's time.

As mentioned above, 'modern' approaches are going
a radically different way and three main
approaches are visible:

- drawing a chart of past lives until a clear
pattern emerges and the person recognizes the
two most basic valences as their own set of
prime motivations;

- tracing back goals/problems/(mental masses)
("GPM's") to their origin, yielding the basic
goal of a person.

- assessing the person's core valences using
a biofeedback device until the pattern
cristallizes;

- finding the actual moment of creation (or
first contact) with the two core qualities
that constitute the basic pair of axioms
for an individual (pioneered by Edward Berwick
<[email protected]>).

It is immediately apparent that the last approach
is preferable because it avoids the inteference
of human language or other conceptual crutches
by accessing the core qualities directly as
perceptions rather than abstractions.

The likelihood of words altering the perception of
the core qualities is considerable. The danger
in doing so is the incorrect selection of an
item from a list of choices.

This phenomenon, sometimes called a 'wrong list
item', can create havoc of major proportions,
and it is the main reason that asking the "why...?"
is a big no-no in any kind of processing.

The exact mechanism of this killer trap has
never been explained exhaustively. Yet, it is
claiming a lot of victims.

Now, what would be the advantages of finding
one's prime motivators in life?

The individual qualities (or 'Codes' in
Knowledgism http://www.knowledgism.com/ ) have
determined the course of one's lives since
aeons.

And more often than not in a negative way:

the qualities can also be described as
the 'most basic desire' and the 'most
vehement rejection' in the character profile
of a person.

Any course of action that is not aligned
with the central goal/anti-goal of a person
will inevitably lead to a decrease of happiness
and success.

A person not following its own basic axioms
will become the worst enemy of itself.

The individual discovery and recognition of
a person's 'gunas' or 'prime motivator'
or 'goal/anti goal' can lead to an alignment
of the person's current and future goals,
dramatically increasing effectiveness and
success rate.

With practice, other people's goal/anti-goal
constructs can be recognized. Just as one
example out of many, Dennis Stephens in his
work 'The Resolution of Mind (TROM)' traces
his goal constructs ('GPMs') back to 'knowing'
and then postulates that 'knowing' is the
basic goal in this Universe.

With the knowledge of the 'gunas' or 'prime
motivators' is becomes immediately clear that
Stephens simply transposed his very own basic goal
('knowing') onto the rest of mankind. (His approach
is still feasible for many people as long as
'knowing' will be replaced by a person's own
prime goal.)

It seems, the application of the gunas in life
seems far more important than the act of discovery
or the theoretical knowledge of its contents.

>From a larger view, the lives of a Being in this
Universe are centered around the two poles
of its principal goal and its principal
anti-goal.

Thus, it seems only a matter of time spent on
the path to self-discovery and liberation until
the most basic goals in life will have to be
recognized as such.

note to Roger: this was not "codes" or even listing and nulling
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is kind of stupid and all about me, but I never missed the water till the well ran dry. With the success story thread vanished, here is one of my best success stories, written by Dr. Max Sandor a long time ago.





Prime Axioms: A Modern View of the 'Gunas' Principle


[snip]


I knew that Berwick guy but never met Dennis Stephens. Pretty sharp dudes I'd say. And so is Dr. Max.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yet Another Good Dennis Prager Article

I added this article to my collection on narcissism.

Dennis Prager, townhall.com


Want To Raise a Good Person? Stop Nurturing Your Child's Self-Esteem

By now, most people (with the exception of many psychotherapists) recognize that the self-esteem movement officially launched by California in 1986 has been at best silly and at worst injurious to society, despite whatever small benefit it may have had to some individuals.

The movement was begun by California Assemblyman John Vasconcellos. As The New York Times reported, "Mr. Vasconcellos, a 53-year-old Democrat, is described by an aide as 'the most radical humanist in the Legislature.'"

In an interview at the time, Vasconcellos told me he had personally benefited from therapy. It enabled him to improve the poor self-esteem he had inherited from his childhood. He therefore concluded that improving other people's self-esteem would greatly help society.

And so, California created its Task Force to Promote Self-Esteem and Personal and Social Responsibility, whose guiding principle was to raise young people's self-esteem in order to increase the number of socially responsible people in society.
This belief -- that increasing self-esteem among the members of society will increase goodness in society -- spread through the rest of America like proverbial wildfire.

It turns out, however, that the premise was entirely misguided. There is no correlation between goodness and high self-esteem. But there is a correlation between criminality and high self-esteem.

Florida State University Professor Roy Baumeister (Ph.D. psychology, Princeton University) has revealed that in a lifetime of study of violent criminals, the one characteristic nearly all these criminals share is high self-esteem.

Yes, people with high self-esteem are the ones most prone to violence.

The 1960s and '70s ushered in what I refer to as the Age of Feelings. And one of the most enduring feelings-based notions that came out of that era was that it was critically important that children feel good about themselves. High self-esteem, it was decided, should be imparted to children whenever possible -- no matter how undeserving. That is why boys on losing teams are given trophies, why more and more high schools have ceased naming a valedictorian (lest the other graduates feel bad about themselves), why some states have abolished winning and losing in children's soccer games (lest those on the losing teams suffer low self-esteem), etc.

A friend of mine provided me with a perfect illustration. At a Little League baseball game, he saw a pitch thrown a few feet above the batter's head. Needless to say, the batter didn't swing. But to my friend's amazement, he heard both the batter's father and coach yell out, "Good eye!"

For those who don't know baseball, it does not take a "good eye" not to swing at a ball thrown over one's head. It takes a functioning eye.

One result of all this has been a generation that thinks highly of itself for no good reason. Perhaps the most famous example is the survey of American high school students and those of seven other countries. Americans came in last in mathematical ability but first in self-esteem about their mathematical ability.

But it turns out that feeling good about oneself for no good reason -- as destructive as that is -- is not the biggest problem.
The child-rearing expert, psychologist John Rosemond, recently opened my eyes to the even more troubling problem: High self-esteem in children does not produce good character, and in fact is likely to produce a less moral individual.

This flies in the face of perhaps the deepest-held conviction among the present generation, as well as the baby boomers: That it is a parent's fundamental obligation to ensure that their child has high self-esteem.

Though I always opposed undeserved self-esteem, I, too, had bought into the belief that self-esteem in children is vital.
But as soon as Rosemond said what he said, I realized he was right.

And since he said that, I have analyzed the finest adults I know well. It turns out that none had high self-esteem as a child. In fact, virtually most of them "suffered" -- as it would now be deemed -- from low self-esteem.

To cite one example, one of the finest human beings I have ever known -- an individual of extraordinary courage, integrity and selflessness -- had a father who constantly berated this person as worthless and stupid.

Now, this father was, to put it mildly, a sick man. And he did indeed have a negative psychological impact on his child -- to this day, this person has low self-esteem. But it had no negative impact on this individual's sterling character.

The more I have thought about it, the more I have put Baumeister's and Rosemond's insights together.

If Baumeister is right, and violent criminals have higher self-esteem than most people, and if Rosemond is right, and people who do not grow up with high self-esteem are more likely to be among the finest human beings, then society has the strongest interest in not promoting self-esteem among children. Society's sole interest should be creating people of good character, not people with high self-esteem. And good character is created by teaching self-control, not self-esteem.

Now, let me be clear. No one is recommending that parents never praise a child or that parents seek to cultivate a low self-image in their child. And we assume that the child knows his parents love him/her. But, if raising good adults is the primary task of a parent -- and it surely must be -- trying to give one's child high self-esteem is not helpful, and it can easily be counterproductive.

If you don't agree with this conclusion, do the following: Ask the finest people you know how much self-esteem they had as a child. Then ask all the narcissists you know how much their parent(s) praised them.
 

RogerB

Crusader
This is kind of stupid and all about me, but I never missed the water till the well ran dry. With the success story thread vanished, here is one of my best success stories, written by Dr. Max Sandor a long time ago.





Prime Axioms: A Modern View of the 'Gunas' Principle

One of the greatest and most important discoveries
in the history of philosophy was the revelation
of the 'gunas-principle' in Ancient India.

Unfortunately, it is now one of the most ignored
and underestimated principles.

It comes therefore as quite a surprise that 'modern'
philosophers (not from the institutionalized
mainstream, mind you!) have discovered this principle
anew and they did so rather indepedently.

Snipped . . . .

With practice, other people's goal/anti-goal
constructs can be recognized. Just as one
example out of many, Dennis Stephens in his
work 'The Resolution of Mind (TROM)' traces
his goal constructs ('GPMs') back to 'knowing'
and then postulates that 'knowing' is the
basic goal in this Universe.

With the knowledge of the 'gunas' or 'prime
motivators' is becomes immediately clear that
Stephens simply transposed his very own basic goal
('knowing') onto the rest of mankind. (His approach
is still feasible for many people as long as
'knowing' will be replaced by a person's own
prime goal.)

It seems, the application of the gunas in life
seems far more important than the act of discovery
or the theoretical knowledge of its contents.

>From a larger view, the lives of a Being in this
Universe are centered around the two poles
of its principal goal and its principal
anti-goal.

Thus, it seems only a matter of time spent on
the path to self-discovery and liberation until
the most basic goals in life will have to be
recognized as such.

note to Roger: this was not "codes" or even listing and nulling

Yep, this is good, and yes it is "other than the Codes tech". :D

I've had dialogue with Dr. Max over the years (we were on one of Alan's old Kn lists together), and Dennis Stevens, well he's the guy who set up and introduced Scn into Perth, West Oz, in the late '50's and I met him in the old days out there in Oz.

In any event, my Dears, all the above will be expounded on as I continue with my "Corrections and Advances in More Workable Tech" thread.

You'll also be getting the way in and out of the "mess" referred to above. Though, be warned, it is not a short journey, and not without its "thrills."

However, I would say at this stage of the game, you can take your attention of the "GPM Tech" . . . . it's an area of wrong answers . . . "interesting," but not where it's at for handling what folks want to handle (if they want answers to handle their individual scenarios). I think Hubbard demonstrated that, no? :D

Rog
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Very sage and wise post!

This is kind of stupid and all about me, but I never missed the water till the well ran dry. With the success story thread vanished, here is one of my best success stories, written by Dr. Max Sandor a long time ago.


Prime Axioms: A Modern View of the 'Gunas' Principle

One of the greatest and most important discoveries
in the history of philosophy was the revelation
of the 'gunas-principle' in Ancient India.

Unfortunately, it is now one of the most ignored
and underestimated principles.

Long Snip.........

note to Roger: this was not "codes" or even listing and nulling

I read your post Carmelo, and find it fascinating! It seems to be an excellent summary of a huge piece of the puzzle of life being revealed. Kudos to you for the important role which you played in uncovering these principles and making them better known.
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Prager is a very clear thinker within his own realm!

I added this article to my collection on narcissism.

Dennis Prager, townhall.com


Want To Raise a Good Person? Stop Nurturing Your Child's Self-Esteem

By now, most people (with the exception of many psychotherapists) recognize that the self-esteem movement officially launched by California in 1986 has been at best silly and at worst injurious to society, despite whatever small benefit it may have had to some individuals.

The movement was begun by California Assemblyman John Vasconcellos. As The New York Times reported, "Mr. Vasconcellos, a 53-year-old Democrat, is described by an aide as 'the most radical humanist in the Legislature.'"

In an interview at the time, Vasconcellos told me he had personally benefited from therapy. It enabled him to improve the poor self-esteem he had inherited from his childhood. He therefore concluded that improving other people's self-esteem would greatly help society.

And so, California created its Task Force to Promote Self-Esteem and Personal and Social Responsibility, whose guiding principle was to raise young people's self-esteem in order to increase the number of socially responsible people in society.
This belief -- that increasing self-esteem among the members of society will increase goodness in society -- spread through the rest of America like proverbial wildfire.

It turns out, however, that the premise was entirely misguided. There is no correlation between goodness and high self-esteem. But there is a correlation between criminality and high self-esteem.

Florida State University Professor Roy Baumeister (Ph.D. psychology, Princeton University) has revealed that in a lifetime of study of violent criminals, the one characteristic nearly all these criminals share is high self-esteem


Yes, people with high self-esteem are the ones most prone to violence.

.

The 1960s and '70s ushered in what I refer to as the Age of Feelings. And one of the most enduring feelings-based notions that came out of that era was that it was critically important that children feel good about themselves. High self-esteem, it was decided, should be imparted to children whenever possible -- no matter how undeserving. That is why boys on losing teams are given trophies, why more and more high schools have ceased naming a valedictorian (lest the other graduates feel bad about themselves), why some states have abolished winning and losing in children's soccer games (lest those on the losing teams suffer low self-esteem), etc.

These "concepts" are in the shithouses and cesspools of life. They are utter, total and unadulterated B.S.

A friend of mine provided me with a perfect illustration. At a Little League baseball game, he saw a pitch thrown a few feet above the batter's head. Needless to say, the batter didn't swing. But to my friend's amazement, he heard both the batter's father and coach yell out, "Good eye!"

For those who don't know baseball, it does not take a "good eye" not to swing at a ball thrown over one's head. It takes a functioning eye.

One result of all this has been a generation that thinks highly of itself for no good reason. Perhaps the most famous example is the survey of American high school students and those of seven other countries. Americans came in last in mathematical ability but first in self-esteem about their mathematical ability.

But it turns out that feeling good about oneself for no good reason -- as destructive as that is -- is not the biggest problem.
The child-rearing expert, psychologist John Rosemond, recently opened my eyes to the even more troubling problem: High self-esteem in children does not produce good character, and in fact is likely to produce a less moral individual.

This flies in the face of perhaps the deepest-held conviction among the present generation, as well as the baby boomers: That it is a parent's fundamental obligation to ensure that their child has high self-esteem.

Though I always opposed undeserved self-esteem, I, too, had bought into the belief that self-esteem in children is vital.
But as soon as Rosemond said what he said, I realized he was right.

And since he said that, I have analyzed the finest adults I know well. It turns out that none had high self-esteem as a child. In fact, virtually most of them "suffered" -- as it would now be deemed -- from low self-esteem.

To cite one example, one of the finest human beings I have ever known -- an individual of extraordinary courage, integrity and selflessness -- had a father who constantly berated this person as worthless and stupid.

Now, this father was, to put it mildly, a sick man. And he did indeed have a negative psychological impact on his child -- to this day, this person has low self-esteem. But it had no negative impact on this individual's sterling character.

The more I have thought about it, the more I have put Baumeister's and Rosemond's insights together.

If Baumeister is right, and violent criminals have higher self-esteem than most people, and if Rosemond is right, and people who do not grow up with high self-esteem are more likely to be among the finest human beings, then society has the strongest interest in not promoting self-esteem among children. Society's sole interest should be creating people of good character, not people with high self-esteem. And good character is created by teaching self-control, not self-esteem.

Now, let me be clear. No one is recommending that parents never praise a child or that parents seek to cultivate a low self-image in their child. And we assume that the child knows his parents love him/her. But, if raising good adults is the primary task of a parent -- and it surely must be -- trying to give one's child high self-esteem is not helpful, and it can easily be counterproductive.

If you don't agree with this conclusion, do the following: Ask the finest people you know how much self-esteem they had as a child. Then ask all the narcissists you know how much their parent(s) praised them.

Excellent case in point regarding self esteem in young children - THE NAZI'S HITLER YOUTH PROGRAM. German children who were of the Nordic Race, if there even is such a thing, had their self esteem raised continually by being told they were inately superior because they belonged to the Master race and also because they were serving a Madman, namely Hitler.

Yes, these children grew up with very high self esteem. Did that self esteem make them better in any key areas of life. Just one that I know of and that one area was being crmininals. Hitler Youth graduates melded perfectly into organizations such and the Nazi's SS and Gestapo and they made excellent concentration camp directors.

A German child raised prior to the Hitler Youth movement would ordinarily have huge back off as to torturing Jews, performing medical experitments on them and gasing them. Not so for the Hitler Youth crop of kids, if the Nazi governement needed some heinous act of murder or torture carried out on the non Aryan population and in particular the Jewish population, "No problemo!" There was a ready pool of tens of thousands of young volunteers standing ready and even demanding to carry out these acts of criminality - you guessed it, they were the Hitler Youth members, each one rippling with self esteem as to how great and superior they were because they were members of the Aryan Race and were being guided and directed by the great humanitarian and leader, Adolph Hitler!
Lakey
 
Last edited:

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is kind of stupid and all about me, but I never missed the water till the well ran dry. With the success story thread vanished, here is one of my best success stories, written by Dr. Max Sandor a long time ago.





Prime Axioms: A Modern View of the 'Gunas' Principle

One of the greatest and most important discoveries
in the history of philosophy was the revelation
of the 'gunas-principle' in Ancient India.

Unfortunately, it is now one of the most ignored
and underestimated principles.

It comes therefore as quite a surprise that 'modern'
philosophers (not from the institutionalized
mainstream, mind you!) have discovered this principle
anew and they did so rather indepedently.

While the Indian approach appeared to be isolating
the core elements of the character of a human
Being through intense and prolonged meditation,
the modern Western approach arrived at it mainly
by looking at the sequence of lives of Beings and
through theoretical speculation.

Drawing a chart of the life sequence of a Being
results in a table that is called a line plot.

One of the most striking properties of such a
line plot is the alternation of the 'main'
(or 'central') valences of a person from one lifetime
to the next.

Frequent paradigm sets are beggar/millionaire,
saint/criminal, genius/imbecile, adventurer/couch potato,
traditionalist/revolutionary etc, etc. and the
individual sets remain surprisingly similar over
incredible long time periods.

Yet there are also different for every human Being.

The question arises: is there a basic set of
qualities with which these core paradigms align?

And, if so, is there a way to access these
core paradigms within a reasonable time and
using reasonable effort?

Once found and understood, what impact will it
have on the future course of lives of a Being?

The Indian approach was to find the common
denominator in the extremes of an individual
set of paradigms.

One component, called 'ragas', was the outgoing,
'positive', bright, and conquering side.

The other component, called 'tamas' was the
introverted, 'negative', dark, and defeated side.

Both are gaining their power through the spark
of pure intention, called 'sattva'.

This triad of qualities, the 'gunas', was said
to be the principal construct determining the
individual human character.

Its discovery through isolation of the core
qualities within the jungle of human emotions
and behavior patterns was therefore of crucial
importance and a focal point in ancient meditation
techniques.

While the circumstance that every Being has
its very own set of core qualities was largely
lost over time, the basic philosophy of the
'gunas' is still present in today's time.

As mentioned above, 'modern' approaches are going
a radically different way and three main
approaches are visible:

- drawing a chart of past lives until a clear
pattern emerges and the person recognizes the
two most basic valences as their own set of
prime motivations;

- tracing back goals/problems/(mental masses)
("GPM's") to their origin, yielding the basic
goal of a person.

- assessing the person's core valences using
a biofeedback device until the pattern
cristallizes;

- finding the actual moment of creation (or
first contact) with the two core qualities
that constitute the basic pair of axioms
for an individual (pioneered by Edward Berwick
<[email protected]>).

It is immediately apparent that the last approach
is preferable because it avoids the inteference
of human language or other conceptual crutches
by accessing the core qualities directly as
perceptions rather than abstractions.

The likelihood of words altering the perception of
the core qualities is considerable. The danger
in doing so is the incorrect selection of an
item from a list of choices.

This phenomenon, sometimes called a 'wrong list
item', can create havoc of major proportions,
and it is the main reason that asking the "why...?"
is a big no-no in any kind of processing.

The exact mechanism of this killer trap has
never been explained exhaustively. Yet, it is
claiming a lot of victims.

Now, what would be the advantages of finding
one's prime motivators in life?

The individual qualities (or 'Codes' in
Knowledgism http://www.knowledgism.com/ ) have
determined the course of one's lives since
aeons.

And more often than not in a negative way:

the qualities can also be described as
the 'most basic desire' and the 'most
vehement rejection' in the character profile
of a person.

Any course of action that is not aligned
with the central goal/anti-goal of a person
will inevitably lead to a decrease of happiness
and success.

A person not following its own basic axioms
will become the worst enemy of itself.

The individual discovery and recognition of
a person's 'gunas' or 'prime motivator'
or 'goal/anti goal' can lead to an alignment
of the person's current and future goals,
dramatically increasing effectiveness and
success rate.

With practice, other people's goal/anti-goal
constructs can be recognized. Just as one
example out of many, Dennis Stephens in his
work 'The Resolution of Mind (TROM)' traces
his goal constructs ('GPMs') back to 'knowing'
and then postulates that 'knowing' is the
basic goal in this Universe.

With the knowledge of the 'gunas' or 'prime
motivators' is becomes immediately clear that
Stephens simply transposed his very own basic goal
('knowing') onto the rest of mankind. (His approach
is still feasible for many people as long as
'knowing' will be replaced by a person's own
prime goal.)

It seems, the application of the gunas in life
seems far more important than the act of discovery
or the theoretical knowledge of its contents.

>From a larger view, the lives of a Being in this
Universe are centered around the two poles
of its principal goal and its principal
anti-goal.

Thus, it seems only a matter of time spent on
the path to self-discovery and liberation until
the most basic goals in life will have to be
recognized as such.

note to Roger: this was not "codes" or even listing and nulling

Another avenue is ignoring the time stream entirely. "Lives" become existence as, and lose any importance.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I added this article to my collection on narcissism.

Dennis Prager, townhall.com


Want To Raise a Good Person? Stop Nurturing Your Child's Self-Esteem

By now, most people (with the exception of many psychotherapists) recognize that the self-esteem movement officially launched by California in 1986 has been at best silly and at worst injurious to society, despite whatever small benefit it may have had to some individuals.

...

Valuable insight.

Looking at this another way, self-confidence relates to what you think you can DO, while self-esteem relates more to what you think you deserve to HAVE.

It's good to instill in a child a high (but not unrealistic) sense that he can accomplish things if he tries. It can be a disaster to give a child an inflated sense of what he or she deserves to have, to the point where it produces a sense of entitlement. What is criminality, but the idea that you are entitled to things without any need to exchange a comparable value for them?

I also see inflated self esteem damaging young women. I've seen a few who waste their prime years looking for Prince Charming, and then wind up middle-aged, never-married, and bitter.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
You alternative approach

Another avenue is ignoring the time stream entirely. "Lives" become existence as, and lose any importance.

This is another avenue for sure, but I for one, would not find any interest in walking down this byway. It seems very dry and boring to me. Maybe that is the sad truth of life, it is very boring and meaningless and all we do, in our search groups and message boards is try to embellish something of no importance and attempt to give it meaning. If that is the case, and I doubt it very much, I would never walk that route and look any further into it.

That would be something very hard for many of us to confront, namely that life had no meaning or intrinsic importance.

While you may be right, Nexus, I will stick to my current approach that life is exciting and interesting to live and that good people are treasures to get to know and be friends with. Your viewpoint is just as valid as mine but why not choose as reality the viewpoint that makes life fun to live? It does not cost more to approach life from a fun point of view, so why not do that instead of adopting a morose, boring and unemotiional outlook on life?
Lakey
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is another avenue for sure, but I for one, would not find any interest in walking down this byway. It seems very dry and boring to me. Maybe that is the sad truth of life, it is very boring and meaningless and all we do, in our search groups and message boards is try to embellish something of no importance and attempt to give it meaning. If that is the case, and I doubt it very much, I would never walk that route and look any further into it.

That would be something very hard for many of us to confront, namely that life had no meaning or intrinsic importance.

While you may be right, Nexus, I will stick to my current approach that life is exciting and interesting to live and that good people are treasures to get to know and be friends with. Your viewpoint is just as valid as mine but why not choose as reality the viewpoint that makes life fun to live? It does not cost more to approach life from a fun point of view, so why not do that instead of adopting a morose, boring and unemotiional outlook on life?
Lakey

If there is anything apparent to me in all this, it is that no one will ever choose to be bored! I'm going my route because it appeals to me for reasons I certainly do not understand fully now. My appreciation for the immediacy of the operation is growing, however. Time may not be the dearest friend one could have.
Regardless we are all children of God and the best wish anyone can offer is to have fun!
My opinion and subject to change.
 
I added this article to my collection on narcissism.

Want To Raise a Good Person? Stop Nurturing Your Child's Self-Esteem

By now, most people (with the exception of many psychotherapists) recognize that the self-esteem movement officially launched by California in 1986 has been at best silly and at worst injurious to society, despite whatever small benefit it may have had to some individuals.

The movement was begun by California Assemblyman John Vasconcellos. As The New York Times reported, "Mr. Vasconcellos, a 53-year-old Democrat, is described by an aide as 'the most radical humanist in the Legislature.'"

In an interview at the time, Vasconcellos told me he had personally benefited from therapy. It enabled him to improve the poor self-esteem he had inherited from his childhood. He therefore concluded that improving other people's self-esteem would greatly help society.

I got a letter from John Vasconcellos, back in those days. He had been to Esalen Institute in Big Sur. Someone there (I don't remember who, maybe Fritz Perls) had said that LRH was one of the most orginial thinkers regarding the mind in the 20th century.. . so I was invited, and went to see him (John) and talk about scientology. He was the seconnd from the top banana in the California Assembly. Next to the governor and the Speaker of the House, there wasn't a more powerful politician in California. It led to more correspondence and good feelings, but no auditing on his part.
 
This is kind of stupid and all about me, but I never missed the water till the well ran dry. With the success story thread vanished, here is one of my best success stories, written by Dr. Max Sandor a long time ago.





Prime Axioms: A Modern View of the 'Gunas' Principle
...

Thanks for reposting it, CO. What happened to the Purple Notebook?


Mark A. Baker
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
About Esalen, Maslow Said...

I got a letter from John Vasconcellos, back in those days. He had been to Esalen Institute in Big Sur. Someone there (I don't remember who, maybe Fritz Perls) had said that LRH was one of the most orginial thinkers regarding the mind in the 20th century.. . so I was invited, and went to see him (John) and talk about scientology. He was the seconnd from the top banana in the California Assembly. Next to the governor and the Speaker of the House, there wasn't a more powerful politician in California. It led to more correspondence and good feelings, but no auditing on his part.


Speaking of Esalen...

Abraham Maslow, 1908 - 1970 [1]


"I was awfully curious to find out why I didn't go insane," remarked
Abraham Maslow, one of the founders of humanistic psychology.

He was born and raised in Brooklyn, the eldest of seven children. He
was smart but shy, and remembered his childhood as lonely and rather
unhappy. Maslow attended City College in New York. His father hoped he
would pursue law, but he went to graduate school at the University of
Wisconsin to study psychology. While there, he married his cousin
Bertha, and found as his chief mentor Professor Harry Harlow. At
Wisconsin he pursued an original line of research, investigating
primate dominance behavior and sexuality. He went on to further
research at Columbia University, continuing similar studies. He found
another mentor in Alfred Adler, one of Freud's early followers.

From 1937 to 1951, Maslow was on the faculty of Brooklyn College. In
New York he found two more mentors, anthropologist Ruth Benedict and
Gestalt psychologist Max Wertheimer, whom he admired both
professionally and personally. These two were so accomplished in both
realms, and such "wonderful human beings" as well, that Maslow began
taking notes about them and their behavior. This would be the basis of
his lifelong research and thinking about mental health and human
potential. He wrote extensively on the subject, borrowing ideas from
other psychologists but adding significantly to them, especially the
concepts of a heirarchy of needs, metaneeds, self-actualizing persons,
and peak experiences. Maslow became the leader of the humanistic school
of psychology that emerged in the 1950s and 1960s, which he referred to
as the "third force" -- beyond Freudian theory and behaviorism.

Maslow saw human beings' needs arranged like a ladder. The most basic
needs, at the bottom, were physical -- air, water, food, sex. Then came
safety needs -- security, stability -- followed by psychological, or
social needs -- for belonging, love, acceptance. At the top of it all
were the self-actualizing needs -- the need to fulfill oneself, to
become all that one is capable of becoming. Maslow felt that
unfulfilled needs lower on the ladder would inhibit the person from
climbing to the next step. Someone dying of thirst quickly forgets
their thirst when they have no oxygen, as he pointed out. People who
dealt in managing the higher needs were what he called self-actualizing
people. Benedict and Wertheimer were Maslow's models of
self-actualization, from which he generalized that, among other
characteristics, self-actualizing people tend to focus on problems
outside of themselves, have a clear sense of what is true and what is
phony, are spontaneous and creative, and are not bound too strictly by
social conventions.

Peak experiences are profound moments of love, understanding,
happiness, or rapture, when a person feels more whole, alive,
self-sufficient and yet a part of the world, more aware of truth,
justice, harmony, goodness, and so on. Self-actualizing people have
many such peak experiences.

Maslow's thinking was surprisingly original -- most psychology before
him had been concerned with the abnormal and the ill. He wanted to know
what constituted positive mental health. Humanistic psychology gave
rise to several different therapies, all guided by the idea that people
possess the inner resources for growth and healing and that the point
of therapy is to help remove obstacles to individuals' achieving this.
The most famous of these was client-centered therapy developed by Carl
Rogers.

Maslow was a professor at Brandeis University from 1951 to 1969, and
then became a resident fellow of the Laughlin Institute in California.
He died of a heart attack in 1970.

"Human nature is not nearly as bad as it has been thought to be."




***Creating peak experiences by focusing on them*** [2]


'Peak experiences are not mystical experiences but a normal part of
everyday life' Abraham Maslow, one of the founders of humanistic
psychology, argued that all healthy people have peak experiences, and
that these are not mystical experiences but a normal part of everyday
life. Colin Wilson, in this book's foreword, recounts how Maslow would
get his students to describe peak experiences they'd had in the past
and had then forgotten about. He discovered that once they began to
describe peak experiences and to listen to those of others, they
started having regular peak experiences of their own. Just this act of
focusing on peak experiences and regarding them as a normal and
necessary part of life, was sufficient to induce them.

But Maslow was critical of hippies who were gluttonous in
their approach to spiritual experience - and critical too of growth centres
such as Esalen in Big Sur, California.
<http://www.esalen.org/>

In one essay he writes:

We must beware of people who are anti-intellectual, anti-rational,
anti-scientific, and anti-research. ... We must seek knowledge, values,
and wisdom. Why is there no library at Esalen?

We must join health psychology with sickness psychology. Esalen should
not exclude the insights of Sigmund Freud and psychoanalysis.

There needs to be a better balance at Esalen between the Dionysian and
the Apollonian. There needs to be more dignity, politeness, courtesy,
reserve, privacy, responsibility, and loyalty. There should be much
less talk about "instant intimacy" and "instant love" and much more
about the necessity for Apollonian controls such as pace and style.

At places like the Esalen Institute, there must be more
stress on work, discipline, and lifelong effort. The ladder of consciousness
must be climbed gradually, step by step.


It is important to differentiate between peak experiences and plateau
experiences, between the flash of insight and the patient working
through of self-knowledge and between psychedelic experience and
psychotherapy. Esalen staff members tend to view human
personality growth in terms of the big bang of tremendous inner breakthroughs,
but true growth is rather a lifelong task.



'The notion of consciousness for consciousness's sake is amoral' The
notion advocated by many at Esalen of "consciousness for
consciousness's sake" must be criticised and rejected. This notion has
all the inherent evil of "art for art's sake," or "science for
science's sake," or "high intelligence for high intelligence's sake."
The essential point is that all such philosophies are amoral.


'Using other people as a means to alter one's consciousness rather than
to enter an I-thou relationship' The various Being-values must be
determined in terms of each other, or else they can lead to the evil
results that have arisen in the psychedelic or hippie movement today.
With these movements, people tend to search for and value anything that
will produce another intense experience or alteration of ordinary
consciousness. Historically, this ideology has always led in mystical
movements to a kind of selfishness - that is, in using other people
simply as a means to alter one's consciousness rather than to enter
into what Martin Buber has called an I-thou relationship with them.
Such an outlook has usually led to magic and a fascination for such
arcana as astrology, card reading, and numerology.


'These viewpoints have led into sadism because sadism may give new
experiences and may turn some people on' In turn, these activities
historically have led to an anti-rationalism, anti-intellectualism,
anti-science, and, finally, an anti-fact. And then, these viewpoints
ultimately have led into sadism because sadism may give "new
experiences" and may "turn some people on." In any case, with the
"consciousness for consciousness's sake" mystique, there are no
principles by which to criticise an alteration of consciousness, that
is, to say whether it is good or evil or whether it causes good or
evil.

The final product of this whole line of ideological development can be
a death wish, because dying, suicide, and killing can, in themselves,
produce "new experiences" ...

Growth centres like the Esalen Institute must always be
judged by their actual products ... : Do places like Esalen make good
people or bad people? Do they make our society better or worse?



**14 ways of reaching the Being realm**

But besides warning of the dangers, Maslow had his own recommendations
for ways to reach a higher state of being:

(1) Get out of the Deficiency-world by deliberately going into the
Being-realm. Seek out art galleries, libraries, museums, beautiful or
grand trees, and the mountains or seashore.

(2) Contemplate people who are admirable, beautiful, lovable, or
respect-worthy.

(3) Step out into clean air on Mount Olympus. Step into the world of
pure philosophy, pure mathematics, or pure science.

(4) Try narrowed-down absorption or close-up fascination with the small
world, for instance, the ant hill, insects on the ground. Closely
inspect flowers or blades of grass, grains of sand, or the earth. Watch
intently without interfering.

(5) Use the artist's or photographer's trick of seeing the object in
itself. ... Gaze at it for a very long time. Gaze while free
associating or daydreaming.

(6) Be with babies or children for a long period of time. They are
closer to the Being-realm. Sometimes, you can experience the
Being-realm in the presence of animals like kittens, puppies, monkeys,
or apes.


**'Contemplate your life from the historian's viewpoint - 100 or even
1,000 years in the future'**


(7) Contemplate your life from the historian's viewpoint - 100 or even
1,000 years in the future.


(8) Contemplate your life from the viewpoint of a non-human species,
for example, as it might appear to ants.

(9) Imagine that you have only one year left to live.

(10) Contemplate your daily life as though being seen from a great
distance, such as from a remote village in Africa.

(11) Look at a familiar person or situation as though viewing it for
the very first time, freshly.

(12) Look at the same person or situation as though viewing it for the
very last time, for instance, that the individual is going to die
before you see him or her again.

(13) Contemplate the situation through the eyes of the great and wise
sages: Socrates, Spinoza, or Voltaire.

(14) Try addressing yourself, or talking or writing, not to the people
immediately around you but over their shoulders, that is, to history's
great figures like Beethoven, William James, Immanuel Kant, Socrates,
or Alfred Whitehead.

These last two pieces of advice were of course easier for Maslow to
follow than for us less lofty mortals.



[1] <http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/bhmasl.html>

[2] Future Visions - The unpublished papers of Abraham Maslow edited by
Edward Hoffman, published by Sage Publications (2455 Teller Road,
Thousand Oaks, California 91320, USA, e-mail: , UK
tel 020 7 374 0645; 1996, ISBN 0 7919 0051 9; £16-50). Reviewed by
Nicholas Albery. <http://www.globalideasbank.org/crespec/CS-176.HTML>
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Speaking of Esalen...

Abraham Maslow, 1908 - 1970 [1]


"I was awfully curious to find out why I didn't go insane," remarked
Abraham Maslow, one of the founders of humanistic psychology.

He was born and raised in Brooklyn, the eldest of seven children. He
was smart but shy, and remembered his childhood as lonely and rather
unhappy. Maslow attended City College in New York. His father hoped he
would pursue law, but he went to graduate school at the University of
Wisconsin to study psychology. While there, he married his cousin
Bertha, and found as his chief mentor Professor Harry Harlow. At
Wisconsin he pursued an original line of research, investigating
primate dominance behavior and sexuality. He went on to further
research at Columbia University, continuing similar studies. He found
another mentor in Alfred Adler, one of Freud's early followers.

From 1937 to 1951, Maslow was on the faculty of Brooklyn College. In
New York he found two more mentors, anthropologist Ruth Benedict and
Gestalt psychologist Max Wertheimer, whom he admired both
professionally and personally. These two were so accomplished in both
realms, and such "wonderful human beings" as well, that Maslow began
taking notes about them and their behavior. This would be the basis of
his lifelong research and thinking about mental health and human
potential. He wrote extensively on the subject, borrowing ideas from
other psychologists but adding significantly to them, especially the
concepts of a heirarchy of needs, metaneeds, self-actualizing persons,
and peak experiences. Maslow became the leader of the humanistic school
of psychology that emerged in the 1950s and 1960s, which he referred to
as the "third force" -- beyond Freudian theory and behaviorism.

Maslow saw human beings' needs arranged like a ladder. The most basic
needs, at the bottom, were physical -- air, water, food, sex. Then came
safety needs -- security, stability -- followed by psychological, or
social needs -- for belonging, love, acceptance. At the top of it all
were the self-actualizing needs -- the need to fulfill oneself, to
become all that one is capable of becoming. Maslow felt that
unfulfilled needs lower on the ladder would inhibit the person from
climbing to the next step. Someone dying of thirst quickly forgets
their thirst when they have no oxygen, as he pointed out. People who
dealt in managing the higher needs were what he called self-actualizing
people. Benedict and Wertheimer were Maslow's models of
self-actualization, from which he generalized that, among other
characteristics, self-actualizing people tend to focus on problems
outside of themselves, have a clear sense of what is true and what is
phony, are spontaneous and creative, and are not bound too strictly by
social conventions.

Peak experiences are profound moments of love, understanding,
happiness, or rapture, when a person feels more whole, alive,
self-sufficient and yet a part of the world, more aware of truth,
justice, harmony, goodness, and so on. Self-actualizing people have
many such peak experiences.

Maslow's thinking was surprisingly original -- most psychology before
him had been concerned with the abnormal and the ill. He wanted to know
what constituted positive mental health. Humanistic psychology gave
rise to several different therapies, all guided by the idea that people
possess the inner resources for growth and healing and that the point
of therapy is to help remove obstacles to individuals' achieving this.
The most famous of these was client-centered therapy developed by Carl
Rogers.

Maslow was a professor at Brandeis University from 1951 to 1969, and
then became a resident fellow of the Laughlin Institute in California.
He died of a heart attack in 1970.

"Human nature is not nearly as bad as it has been thought to be."




***Creating peak experiences by focusing on them*** [2]


'Peak experiences are not mystical experiences but a normal part of
everyday life' Abraham Maslow, one of the founders of humanistic
psychology, argued that all healthy people have peak experiences, and
that these are not mystical experiences but a normal part of everyday
life. Colin Wilson, in this book's foreword, recounts how Maslow would
get his students to describe peak experiences they'd had in the past
and had then forgotten about. He discovered that once they began to
describe peak experiences and to listen to those of others, they
started having regular peak experiences of their own. Just this act of
focusing on peak experiences and regarding them as a normal and
necessary part of life, was sufficient to induce them.

But Maslow was critical of hippies who were gluttonous in
their approach to spiritual experience - and critical too of growth centres
such as Esalen in Big Sur, California.
<http://www.esalen.org/>

In one essay he writes:

We must beware of people who are anti-intellectual, anti-rational,
anti-scientific, and anti-research. ... We must seek knowledge, values,
and wisdom. Why is there no library at Esalen?

We must join health psychology with sickness psychology. Esalen should
not exclude the insights of Sigmund Freud and psychoanalysis.

There needs to be a better balance at Esalen between the Dionysian and
the Apollonian. There needs to be more dignity, politeness, courtesy,
reserve, privacy, responsibility, and loyalty. There should be much
less talk about "instant intimacy" and "instant love" and much more
about the necessity for Apollonian controls such as pace and style.

At places like the Esalen Institute, there must be more
stress on work, discipline, and lifelong effort. The ladder of consciousness
must be climbed gradually, step by step.


It is important to differentiate between peak experiences and plateau
experiences, between the flash of insight and the patient working
through of self-knowledge and between psychedelic experience and
psychotherapy. Esalen staff members tend to view human
personality growth in terms of the big bang of tremendous inner breakthroughs,
but true growth is rather a lifelong task.



'The notion of consciousness for consciousness's sake is amoral' The
notion advocated by many at Esalen of "consciousness for
consciousness's sake" must be criticised and rejected. This notion has
all the inherent evil of "art for art's sake," or "science for
science's sake," or "high intelligence for high intelligence's sake."
The essential point is that all such philosophies are amoral.


'Using other people as a means to alter one's consciousness rather than
to enter an I-thou relationship' The various Being-values must be
determined in terms of each other, or else they can lead to the evil
results that have arisen in the psychedelic or hippie movement today.
With these movements, people tend to search for and value anything that
will produce another intense experience or alteration of ordinary
consciousness. Historically, this ideology has always led in mystical
movements to a kind of selfishness - that is, in using other people
simply as a means to alter one's consciousness rather than to enter
into what Martin Buber has called an I-thou relationship with them.
Such an outlook has usually led to magic and a fascination for such
arcana as astrology, card reading, and numerology.


'These viewpoints have led into sadism because sadism may give new
experiences and may turn some people on' In turn, these activities
historically have led to an anti-rationalism, anti-intellectualism,
anti-science, and, finally, an anti-fact. And then, these viewpoints
ultimately have led into sadism because sadism may give "new
experiences" and may "turn some people on." In any case, with the
"consciousness for consciousness's sake" mystique, there are no
principles by which to criticise an alteration of consciousness, that
is, to say whether it is good or evil or whether it causes good or
evil.

The final product of this whole line of ideological development can be
a death wish, because dying, suicide, and killing can, in themselves,
produce "new experiences" ...

Growth centres like the Esalen Institute must always be
judged by their actual products ... : Do places like Esalen make good
people or bad people? Do they make our society better or worse?



**14 ways of reaching the Being realm**

But besides warning of the dangers, Maslow had his own recommendations
for ways to reach a higher state of being:

(1) Get out of the Deficiency-world by deliberately going into the
Being-realm. Seek out art galleries, libraries, museums, beautiful or
grand trees, and the mountains or seashore.

(2) Contemplate people who are admirable, beautiful, lovable, or
respect-worthy.

(3) Step out into clean air on Mount Olympus. Step into the world of
pure philosophy, pure mathematics, or pure science.

(4) Try narrowed-down absorption or close-up fascination with the small
world, for instance, the ant hill, insects on the ground. Closely
inspect flowers or blades of grass, grains of sand, or the earth. Watch
intently without interfering.

(5) Use the artist's or photographer's trick of seeing the object in
itself. ... Gaze at it for a very long time. Gaze while free
associating or daydreaming.

(6) Be with babies or children for a long period of time. They are
closer to the Being-realm. Sometimes, you can experience the
Being-realm in the presence of animals like kittens, puppies, monkeys,
or apes.


**'Contemplate your life from the historian's viewpoint - 100 or even
1,000 years in the future'**


(7) Contemplate your life from the historian's viewpoint - 100 or even
1,000 years in the future.


(8) Contemplate your life from the viewpoint of a non-human species,
for example, as it might appear to ants.

(9) Imagine that you have only one year left to live.

(10) Contemplate your daily life as though being seen from a great
distance, such as from a remote village in Africa.

(11) Look at a familiar person or situation as though viewing it for
the very first time, freshly.

(12) Look at the same person or situation as though viewing it for the
very last time, for instance, that the individual is going to die
before you see him or her again.

(13) Contemplate the situation through the eyes of the great and wise
sages: Socrates, Spinoza, or Voltaire.

(14) Try addressing yourself, or talking or writing, not to the people
immediately around you but over their shoulders, that is, to history's
great figures like Beethoven, William James, Immanuel Kant, Socrates,
or Alfred Whitehead.

These last two pieces of advice were of course easier for Maslow to
follow than for us less lofty mortals.



[1] <http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/bhmasl.html>

[2] Future Visions - The unpublished papers of Abraham Maslow edited by
Edward Hoffman, published by Sage Publications (2455 Teller Road,
Thousand Oaks, California 91320, USA, e-mail: , UK
tel 020 7 374 0645; 1996, ISBN 0 7919 0051 9; £16-50). Reviewed by
Nicholas Albery. <http://www.globalideasbank.org/crespec/CS-176.HTML>

Beautiful stuff. actually done most of this with weaknesses in some areas.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Face, our meal was almost identical except for more deserts, tiramisu, NY style cheesecake, apple pie with the crumbly topping and more booze, beer, pinot noir, champagne. I had forgotten to mention we had guests from Russia, Italy, Côte d'Ivoire, and France, along with the usual suspects.
the interactive nature of these threads and this whole ESMB just makes one want to add to the contributions wherever you see something that triggers a memory or a different way of looking.

I love apple pie with crumbly topping...especially with homemade ice cream!

Fascinating! Love to have been in on the conversation.

I'm big on "interactive triggering".

Face:)
 
Last edited:

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yep, this is good, and yes it is "other than the Codes tech". :D

I've had dialogue with Dr. Max over the years (we were on one of Alan's old Kn lists together), and Dennis Stevens, well he's the guy who set up and introduced Scn into Perth, West Oz, in the late '50's and I met him in the old days out there in Oz.

In any event, my Dears, all the above will be expounded on as I continue with my "Corrections and Advances in More Workable Tech" thread.

You'll also be getting the way in and out of the "mess" referred to above. Though, be warned, it is not a short journey, and not without its "thrills."

However, I would say at this stage of the game, you can take your attention of the "GPM Tech" . . . . it's an area of wrong answers . . . "interesting," but not where it's at for handling what folks want to handle (if they want answers to handle their individual scenarios). I think Hubbard demonstrated that, no? :D

Rog

Yep! This is real, real good stuff...thanks for posting this, Carmelo.:thumbsup: I await your "expounding", Rog. Perhaps Carmelo will expound away as well.

Face:)
 

JackStraw

Silver Meritorious Patron
My current thoughts on scientlology in general

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBwWpBxu32g

"Ship of Fools"
Words by Robert Hunter; music by Jerry Garcia
Copyright Ice Nine Publishing; used by permission.

Went to see the captain
strangest I could find
Layed my proposition down
Layed it on the line;
I won't slave for beggar's pay
likewise gold and jewels
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Ship of fools
on a cruel sea
Ship of fools
sail away from me

It was later than I thought
when I first believed you
now I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools

Saw your first ship sink and drown
from rocking of the boat
and all that could not sink or swim
was just left there to float
I won't leave you drifting down
but woah it makes me wild
with thirty years upon my head
to have you call me child

Ship of fools
on a cruel sea
Ship of fools
sail away from me

It was later than I thought
when I first believed you
now I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools

The bottles stand as empty
as they were filled before
Time there was and plenty
but from that cup no more
Though I could not caution all I yet may warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag
atop no ship of fools

Ship of fools
on a cruel sea
Ship of fools
sail away from me

It was later than I thought
when I first believed you
now I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools
No I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools

Jack
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBwWpBxu32g

"Ship of Fools"
Words by Robert Hunter; music by Jerry Garcia
Copyright Ice Nine Publishing; used by permission.

Went to see the captain
strangest I could find
Layed my proposition down
Layed it on the line;
I won't slave for beggar's pay
likewise gold and jewels
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Ship of fools
on a cruel sea
Ship of fools
sail away from me

It was later than I thought
when I first believed you
now I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools

Saw your first ship sink and drown
from rocking of the boat
and all that could not sink or swim
was just left there to float
I won't leave you drifting down
but woah it makes me wild
with thirty years upon my head
to have you call me child

Ship of fools
on a cruel sea
Ship of fools
sail away from me

It was later than I thought
when I first believed you
now I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools

The bottles stand as empty
as they were filled before
Time there was and plenty
but from that cup no more
Though I could not caution all I yet may warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag
atop no ship of fools

Ship of fools
on a cruel sea
Ship of fools
sail away from me

It was later than I thought
when I first believed you
now I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools
No I cannot share your laughter
Ship of Fools

Jack
Jack!

Just the person I want to talk to.

I had a loooong conversation with a newly ex sci yesterday. Frankly, after reading ESMB for a couple of years, it boggles my mind how greeeeedy the locals are. Especially at the org that started in my living room. How did you ever live with that stuff going on? How much did they take you for?

I've met a number of people lately who once lived the high life, but are now embraced by homelessness or just on the verge.

Are you doing OK?
 
I'm big on "interactive triggering".

roy-rogers-trigger-th.jpg
 
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