The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[secretiveoldfag]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

Not at all, Roger. The word derives from portugese and stems from heavy portugese involvement in the america's slave trade. It was racist in it's inception and remains so to this day.

According to Chamber's Dictionary Shakespeare used the word niggard to mean a mean person. A niggard is a false bottom or sides in a fire-grate which makes a small fire appear bigger than it is. The slave trade was not really on stream in Shakespeare's time c.1600.

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

Not at all, Roger. The word derives from portugese and stems from heavy portugese involvement in the america's slave trade. It was racist in it's inception and remains so to this day.


Mark A. Baker

For the record, regardless of the word's inception I have never considered it racist and do not know of anyone of a reasonable literacy level who considers it racist.

The fly specks are hard to distinguish from the pepper...who cares anyway.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

According to Chamber's Dictionary Shakespeare used the word niggard to mean a mean person. A niggard is a false bottom or sides in a fire-grate which makes a small fire appear bigger than it is. The slave trade was not really on stream in Shakespeare's time c.1600.

Not discussing 'niggard'. Lakey introduced that word as a red herring. It is not germane to the issue of racist invective.

For the record 'niggard' has absolutely NOTHING to do with race and never did. Not historically, not linguistically, not culturally. Nada. Nothing. Zip.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

For the record, regardless of the word's inception I have never considered it racist and do not know of anyone of a reasonable literacy level who considers it racist.

The fly specks are hard to distinguish from the pepper...who cares anyway.

Rather like 'wog' then, eh?


Mark A. Baker

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

More on loaded words:

And do not forget what ensued when Tallulah Bankhead was publicly labeled a "thespian"...there is that, I grant ya!

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

Rather like 'wog' then, eh?


Mark A. Baker

As You Like It! :wink2:

An to go completely "non sequitor" on yez...tonight we are off to a new Italian eatery nearby, and I am considering:

Calamari Fritti

Pollo alla Marsala

Preceeded by a Beefeater martini "up with a twist"

(OSAbots eat yer livers out!)

EP

 

[FoTi]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

Not at all, Roger. The word derives from portugese and stems from heavy portugese involvement in the america's slave trade. It was racist in it's inception and remains so to this day.


Mark A. Baker

What is your reference on this?

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

Not discussing 'niggard'. Lakey introduced that word as a red herring. It is not germane to the issue of racist invective.

For the record 'niggard' has absolutely NOTHING to do with race and never did. Not historically, not linguistically, not culturally. Nada. Nothing. Zip.


Mark A. Baker

To the contrary, niggardly HAD absolutely NOTHING to do with race and never did. Not historically, not linguistically (which is my point), not culturally, Nada. Nothing. Zip UP UNTIL JANUARY 28, 2009 WHEN A MAYOR'S ASSISTANT IN WASHINGTON D. C. GOT FIRED FOR USING THE WORD. THOUGH THE MAYOR'S EMPLOYEE SHOWED THAT THE WORD WAS NOT RACIST AND THAT HIS USAGE OF IT WAS NOT RACIST, THE MAN WAS FIRED ANYWAY FOR BEING RACIALLY INSENSITIVE!!! I find this absolutely remarkable and it shows to what extant some people will go to insist that a word or term is racist when it is not!!!

MAB loves to cite history in defining words but apparently only older history qualifies to be included. Isn't the period from 1/28/09 to the present also history? There is now a historical connection between the word "niggardly" and racism and that connection took place on 1/28/09!

MAB's premise is absurd to my way of thinking. He is stressing that if a person is sufficiently well educated and knows the origins of a word going back to Portugal in the 1600's, for example, then the person will clearly see that a word or term is a racist invective. Clearly over 99% of the populace are not familiar with the particular fine nuance of the word as he is, therefore they are too stupid to react "properly" to the word and recognize racist invectives when they see or hear them.

When you have to have a "Classical" and proper education to be educated enough to realize something is racist, then you are on a slippery slope. Education should free one's mind to think critically, not give one license to pedantically explain to the less educated crowd that they would know racism had taken place if only they were better educated.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Your post is so simple and so true.

For the record, regardless of the word's inception I have never considered it racist and do not know of anyone of a reasonable literacy level who considers it racist.

The fly specks are hard to distinguish from the pepper...who cares anyway.

Who cares is right! People have better things to do with their time than to learn the history and origins of words from the distant past so that they can feel proper outrage when an innocent sounding word or term is use casually in modern speech.

I have generally enjoyed studying the origins and derivations of words. It can be a lot of fun and very enlightening. However, when it comes to studying word origins and derivation so that one can become "properly outraged" when a word such as "wog" or "mulatto" is used with no derogatory intent, then that is one type of education which I do not want to pursue.
Lakey

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

To the contrary, niggardly HAD absolutely NOTHING to do with race and never did. Not historically, not linguistically (which is my point), not culturally, Nada. Nothing. Zip UP UNTIL JANUARY 28, 2009 WHEN A MAYOR'S ASSISTANT IN WASHINGTON D. C. GOT FIRED FOR USING THE WORD. THOUGH THE MAYOR'S EMPLOYEE SHOWED THAT THE WORD WAS NOT RACIST AND THAT HIS USAGE OF IT WAS NOT RACIST, THE MAN WAS FIRED ANYWAY FOR BEING RACIALLY INSENSITIVE!!! I find this absolutely remarkable and it shows to what extant some people will go to insist that a word or term is racist when it is not!!! ...

And the word still has absolutely nothing to do with race, hence my own lack of affront at its use. The word 'mulatto' however is and always has been innately racist in meaning & usage.

What is your reference on this?

See earlier post giving word origins.


Mark A. Baker

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

And the word still has absolutely nothing to do with race, hence my own lack of affront at its use. The word 'mulatto' however is and always has been innately racist in meaning & usage.





See earlier post giving word origins.


Mark A. Baker

The word had nothing to do with race over many centuries. On 1/28/09 the word was casually spoken in addressing a gathering in Washington D.C.. EVEN THOUGH THIS WORD HISTORICALLY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, A MAN WAS FIRED FROM HIS JOB FOR USING IT! I am suggesting that because of what happened and all the publicity that ensued, the word NOW has something to do with race! This is not rocket science, you can agree or disagree that my point is relevant.

Disagreeing with my point is fine and I understand that but I am puzzled that you were affronted by my example using the word "niggardly", it really surprised me to hear that!

I enjoyed your giving the history of the word "mulatto", its connection with early slave trading and the fact that its root word stems from the word "mule". These are useful things to know. I don't get why it is so important for you to insist that using the word is racially insensitive. You made your points convincingly in support of your assertion. People respect your opinion and some people agree with you. Yet there are others, myself included, who don't agree. Its not that big of a deal!

IMO it is time to wrap this topic up. You provided some interesting background on the word "mulatto" which I found interesting and also I gained insight as to why some people consider certain utterances racist when I don't see any racist content or intent in them. Thank you for strongly pursuing your viewpoint on this topic. I found it very interesting and stimulating and got a lot out of your comments and critiques.

I'll give you the last word if you want to say more.
Lakey

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yes, well, on the issue of mulatto having been used 4-500 years ago by the Portuguese in a "racially invective" context (and that's not proven, what is known it that it was used to refer to a condition of mixed blood) all I have to say is, we don't speak Portuguese here, we speak English . . . even if American English. And it was clearly elucidated in an earlier post the American usage of the word and its meaning as defined in statute.

So maybe in Portugal or Brazil the word is a nasty word . . . go tell them that. For we English speakers, here and elsewhere, I think we ought keep this simple and to the point of our own terms of reference.

Now that seems rather uncomplicated, no? Or do we want complications here . . . .

Political correctness and intellectualismness can be taken to absurdly complicating and debilitating lengths Taken too far these things can end up with one being unable to act or actually get anything done!

R

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

... So maybe in Portugal or Brazil the word is a nasty word . . . go tell them that. For we English speakers, here and elsewhere, I think we ought keep this simple and to the point of our own terms of reference.

Now that seems rather uncomplicated, no? Or do we want complications here . . . . ...

Sorry, but no, Roger. Similar to 'wog', 'mulatto' is racist and always has been. The fact is that many of us are old enough to recall the so-called 'polite' or 'genteel' use of words which are in fact fundamentally racist. That may cause a bit of 'cultural dissonance' for us, but there is no way that excuses openly racist remarks, no matter how 'unintentional' they may have been.


Mark A. Baker

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Sorry, but no, Roger. Similar to 'wog', 'mulatto' is racist and always has been. The fact is that many of us are old enough to recall the so-called 'polite' or 'genteel' use of words which are in fact fundamentally racist. That may cause a bit of 'cultural dissonance' for us, but there is no way that excuses openly racist remarks, no matter how 'unintentional' they may have been.


Mark A. Baker

Well I think you ought to read the wiki article on it and see how they use the word . . . it is simply quite technical, and a word used as any other to define ancestry.

Example:

Other sources cite that more than 50% of Cubans are mulatto, about 40 percent of Brazilians are mulatto/mestizo, and 67% of Venezuelans mestizo with African ancestry.[20]

Any decent, unbiased person should not take any umbrage at that.

Of course, the real deal is how any word is used . . . as an example: in Oz we use the word "bastard" as a term of endearment and as an insult See? depends on how used and the tone of voice . . . but then, we Ozzies are nice and simple folks with a sense of humor . . .

In England, when I heard the word used, it was in fact used in the polite sense of reference to the technical fact of mixed ancestry . . . no problem, no insults.

So it seems that in your weird little corner of the world you've heard it used as an insult? Seems you are unique among we denizens on the Apollo thread

Rog

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

... Seems you are unique among we denizens on the Apollo thread

Rog

That has been suggested on this board from time to time.


Mark A. Baker :angel:

 

[FoTi]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

What is your reference on this?

And the word still has absolutely nothing to do with race, hence my own lack of affront at its use. The word 'mulatto' however is and always has been innately racist in meaning & usage.





See earlier post giving word origins.


Mark A. Baker

What earlier post giving word origins?

Other than you saying it's so....I don't see any reference on this. Again, I ask....what is the reference you are using (other than just your own opinion)?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

What earlier post giving word origins? ...

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ys-Aboard-the-Apollo-1973&p=588211#post588211

The concept represented is not one of respectful appreciation for the genetic diversity of humanity. Similar definitions giving the origin of the term can be found in other dictionaries, both online and in print. As for understanding the role the portugese played in the commercial slave trade in the americas I suggest that 'google is your friend'.


Mark A. Baker

 

[RogerB]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ys-Aboard-the-Apollo-1973&p=588211#post588211

The concept represented is not one of respectful appreciation for the genetic diversity of humanity. Similar definitions giving the origin of the term can be found in other dictionaries, both online and in print. As for understanding the role the portugese played in the commercial slave trade in the americas I suggest that 'google is your friend'.


Mark A. Baker

Nooo, my friend. That answer is a misdirecting generality. . . .And reference to the Portuguese role in the slave trade? what has that to do with any assertion that Ted used a racial invective with the word mulatto.

FoTi, it is instructive to read Wikipedia's "definition" . . . . it's really a dissertation on the word and all similar words and other words referring to "mixed blood" as has come down to us in PT.

Here's a nice little piece from wiki giving some history of American usage . . . this should put to rest any idea that the term is pejorative.

Mulatto existed as an official census category until 1930. Although it is sometimes used to describe individuals of mixed European and African descent, it originally referred to anyone with mixed ethnicities; in fact, in the United States, "mulatto" was also used as a term for those who were African American and Native American ancestry during the early census years.[29][30][31][32] Mulatto was also used interchangeably with terms like "turk", leading to further ambiguity when referring to many North Africans and Middle Easterners.[33] In the 2000 United States census 6,171 Americans self-identified with mulatto ancestry.[34]

In other words, in the 2000 United States census, 6,171 Americans were proud to identify themselves as being of mulatto ancestry.

Here's the wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto

Rog

 

[FoTi]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ys-Aboard-the-Apollo-1973&p=588211#post588211

The concept represented is not one of respectful appreciation for the genetic diversity of humanity. Similar definitions giving the origin of the term can be found in other dictionaries, both online and in print. As for understanding the role the portugese played in the commercial slave trade in the americas I suggest that 'google is your friend'.


Mark A. Baker

Nooo, my friend. That answer is a misdirecting generality. . . .And reference to the Portuguese role in the slave trade? what has that to do with any assertion that Ted used a racial invective with the word mulatto.

FoTi, it is instructive to read Wikipedia's "definition" . . . . it's really a dissertation on the word and all similar words and other words referring to "mixed blood" as has come down to us in PT.

Here's a nice little piece from wiki giving some history of American usage . . . this should put to rest any idea that the term is pejorative.



In other words, in the 2000 United States census, 6,171 Americans were proud to identify themselves as being of mulatto ancestry.

Here's the wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto

Rog

Thanks for the definitions. I did google it and I also looked it up in my own American Heritage dict.

The following is from Wikipedia definition of 'mulatto' in the Brazil section.

"The term mulatto (mulato in Portuguese) does not carry a racist connotation and is used along with other terms like moreno, light-moreno and dark-moreno. These focus more on the skin color than on the ethnicity, although they can refer to hair color alone - e.g. "light-moreno" would be "caucasian brunette". Such terms are also used for other multiracial people in Brazil, and they are the popular terms for the pardo skin color used on the 2000 official census"

And from what I read of what Ted wrote I got that ....Obama claimed to be or favored to paint himself black when he is actually mixed....in other words 'mulatto'.....which is one of several words used to indicate mixed heritage or mixed breeding rather than pure bred. I do not see that Ted wrote was racist.

I see it more that Obama was going for the black voters support by claiming or making an issue of that idea that he was black.

The truth is.....he is a mulatto by definition, is he not? Do you think that's racist?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Unfortunately, I see your point.

. . .And reference to the Portuguese role in the slave trade? ...

It's not a native english word, Rog. It came into usage in english from commercial dealings with portugese slavers. There is no 'generality' or 'ambiguity' to it.

Since you are so convinced of the 'rightness' of your view though, feel free to run uptown to Harlem and test your thesis with live responses. Be prepared to handle resultant arcx's.


Mark A. Baker