The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Gib]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

For me I've tried to understand why OT3 worked so well
when I didn't even believe in incident 2. I've arrived, for now, at the conclusion that by mocking it up any of my associated entities
thus mocked it and ran lots of explosion type incidents and
restimmed and discharged any number of engrams of various sorts.

For example the OT2 electrical GPM could be considered like an explosion
also. Thus the entities iether ran or mocked up something similar
from their own track.

The PDC lectures Scn 8-0088 and 8-80 all go into creative
processes.They were considered very powerful but limited
processes. LRH says at one point someone could spend an
hour or two implanting someone and we can run it out with creative
processing in 15 mins.

This process is used today for example in getting people to
mock up past track incidents which then results in them starting
to run real [ or "real"? ] incidents. I did that once on my NED
interneship on a staff member. Not sure how it worked out as
I didn't audit him again.

My most memorable experience of mock ups was a stage
magician or similar on TV who got members of the audience on stage
and asked them for a troubled area then ran creative processes
on them to very good success, and very quickly. Can't remember who it was as I could then maybe find something on U-Tube.

You said:-

"Just as Clearly, it is not okay for someone to tell a PC what to think of his case. That is simply a major violation of the Auditor's Code and it is a High Crime in Scientology Ethics for anyone to do that. Doing that will always result in messing up someone's case and that is the reason why LRH put it in the Auditor;s Code. I am really surprised, Terril, that you opinion is to be lax on this matter and be sort of reasonable about it."

Well I've been called a squirrel before and it don't bother
me. And I'm not a fundamentalist.

However one may take the view that getting someone to run
OT 2&3 one is subjecting the entities to the auditing not the pre OT.
And one is educated first by HCOB "The nature of a being" which
stresses that one is not a single unit being.

On PAB 12 one is asked to mock up explosions. This is not
evaluative. OT 3 can be considered evaluative but it has
the same action as PAB 12.

I'm just trying to figure things out. Per ocdcam,s razor my idea here is simpler than Inc 2.

You just explained the evaluation done by Hubbard.

I'll pose a question again,

if you never heard of entities or BT's, would you have discovered BT's or entities in auditing?

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

For me I've tried to understand why OT3 worked so well
when I didn't even believe in incident 2. I've arrived, for now, at the conclusion that by mocking it up any of my associated entities
thus mocked it and ran lots of explosion type incidents and
restimmed and discharged any number of engrams of various sorts.

For example the OT2 electrical GPM could be considered like an explosion
also. Thus the entities iether ran or mocked up something similar
from their own track.

The PDC lectures Scn 8-0088 and 8-80 all go into creative
processes.They were considered very powerful but limited
processes. LRH says at one point someone could spend an
hour or two implanting someone and we can run it out with creative
processing in 15 mins.

This process is used today for example in getting people to
mock up past track incidents which then results in them starting
to run real [ or "real"? ] incidents. I did that once on my NED
interneship on a staff member. Not sure how it worked out as
I didn't audit him again.

My most memorable experience of mock ups was a stage
magician or similar on TV who got members of the audience on stage
and asked them for a troubled area then ran creative processes
on them to very good success, and very quickly. Can't remember who it was as I could then maybe find something on U-Tube.

You said:-

"Just as Clearly, it is not okay for someone to tell a PC what to think of his case. That is simply a major violation of the Auditor's Code and it is a High Crime in Scientology Ethics for anyone to do that. Doing that will always result in messing up someone's case and that is the reason why LRH put it in the Auditor;s Code. I am really surprised, Terril, that you opinion is to be lax on this matter and be sort of reasonable about it."

Well I've been called a squirrel before and it don't bother
me. And I'm not a fundamentalist.

However one may take the view that getting someone to run
OT 2&3 one is subjecting the entities to the auditing not the pre OT.
And one is educated first by HCOB "The nature of a being" which
stresses that one is not a single unit being.

On PAB 12 one is asked to mock up explosions. This is not
evaluative. OT 3 can be considered evaluative but it has
the same action as PAB 12.

I'm just trying to figure things out. Per ocdcam,s razor my idea here is simpler than Inc 2.

I have a couple of problems with auditing BTs.

First, it's just weird, the way Scientology assumes that the BTs want to be audited, are in fact BTs and not some other sort of being, that they have the incident in question and need to have it run, and that removing the BT will help the person running the BTs out especially given that often that person doesn't believe in it or did not 'recall it, hasn't actually seen any BTs etc. Oh and the question of whether BTs exist at all.

Assuming BT lilke beings exist, such a process evaluates for them, not just the OT running the process. How convenient that all the beings who are grafted on happen to be sort of helpless benign and easy to remove, also how convenient that per LRH everyone, BT or OT, has this incident and needs it run out. If nothing else I doubt BTs exist because of how robotic and the same they all seem.

I know it can be argued that hey, I am auditing the BT not the person. But that's not true. If LRH did not feel that OT3 affected the person receiving the process, i.e., these BTS after all were grafted onto the person, then why run it? Certainly it must not be of no consequence from a whole track perspective that the thetan being audited has BTs grafted on. Ouch. So I still stand by the thought that the entire thing is an evaluation.

It is not just one evaluation that is going on. It's many evalulations.

Really I am not sure why this process is different from what some Christians (catholics) call exorcism and some other Christians (born-agains) call spiritual warfare. In this process, it seems that beings have attacked the person, sort of live inside of them, are grafted on somehow, and by doing a sort of purge or exorcism prayer, the beings are banished, killed, given to God to deal with, sent off to some hole somewhere. Honestly, however wacky such a thing sounds, I have to grant that it is messier thus more 'realistic' and that the 'beings' are not all cookie cutter defenseless BT blobs. I am hard-pressed to see much of a difference though between exorcism and removing BTs. Except that as far as I know a person wanting exorcism does feel plagued with beings and is asking for help and so it's not an eval.

You see how predictable and provincial Scientology is? It's a Western 'religion'. And like some other Western religions it includes confession (sec-checks), and also demons to be cast out (OT III). It also includes penance (RPF and related punishments). It also has its intifada/inquisition/burning at the stake (comm ev/going to the hole, never to be seen again.) How boring.

I find Scientology to be downright Medieval. Anyone see the movie Dark City? Notice the dark lords in it? They remind me of the Scn Ecclesia. Gross, vampirish, afraid of the light ghouls.

 

[Terril park]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

You just explained the evaluation done by Hubbard.

I'll pose a question again,

if you never heard of entities or BT's, would you have discovered BT's or entities in auditing?

Its easy to be wise after the event but I believe so. The first
"BT" I ran was on OT 2. Now I'd already read OT3 and knew
the concept of BTs but wasn't expecting to find them on OT 2.
However this one was theta clear or OT. The separation process
was extraordinary. First I thought I was a twin being, then 2 beings
and then she left the body and I had the most intense affinity flows
I've experienced. In the worksheets I noted that "she had so much
love she didn't care if anyone hated her."

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

I have a couple of problems with auditing BTs.

First, it's just weird, the way Scientology assumes that the BTs want to be audited, are in fact BTs and not some other sort of being, they have the incident in question and need to have it run, and that removing the BT will help the person running the BTs out especially given that often that person doesn't believe it, hasn't actually seen the BT etc. Oh and that BTs exist at all.

Assuming BT lilke beings exist, such a process evaluates for them, not just the OT running the process. How convenient that all the beings who are grafted on happen to be sort of helpless benign and easy to remove, also how convenient that per LRH everyone, BT or OT, has this incident and needs it run out. If nothing else I doubt BTs exist because of how robotic and the same they all seem.

I know it can be argued that hey, I am auditing the BT not the person. But that's not true. If LRH did not feel that OT3 affected the person receiving the process, i.e., these BTS after all were grafted onto the person, then why run it? Certainly it must not be of no consequence from a whole track perspective that the thetan being audited has BTs grafted on. Ouch. So I still stand by the thought that the entire thing is an evaluation.

It is not just one evaluation that is going on. It's many evalulations.

Really I am not sure why this process is different from what some Christians call exorcism and some other Christians call spiritual warfare. In this process, it seems that beings have attacked the person, sort of live inside of them, are grafted on somehow, and by doing a sort of purge or exorcism prayer, the beings are banished, killed, given to God to deal with, sent off to some hole somewhere. Honestly, however wacky such a thing sounds, I have to grant that it is messier thus more 'realistic' and that the 'beings' are not all cookie cutter defenseless BT blobs. I am hard-pressed to see much of a difference though between exorcism and removing BTs. Except that as far as I know a person wanting exorcism does feel plagued with beings and is asking for help and so it's not an eval.

You see how predictable and provincial Scientology is? It's a Western 'religion'. And like some other Western religions it includes confession (sec-checks), and also demons to be cast out (OT III). It also includes penance (RPF and related punishments). It also has its intifada/inquisition/burning at the stake (comm ev/going to the hole, never to be seen again.) How boring.

I find Scientology to be downright Medieval. Anyone see the movie Dark City? Notice the dark lords in it? They remind me of the Scn Ecclesia. Gross, vampirish, afraid of the light ghouls.

Maria, excellent post, thorough with many good points and very humorous to boot! I had one point to make about the BT's. I believe that part of Hubbard's theology assumed that when a group of people die violently in some sort of catastrophe such as cars colliding, a train derailing at high speed, a commercial airliner crashing, etc., that group of people are really knocked for a loop and become very disoriented but in addition to that, they tend to cluster together and also lose their personal identities. What is supposed to happen, according to Hubbard, is that if one of these beings picks up a new body, this whole cluster of beings which formed during the crash comes along with the being taking over the body.

Now, if a car crash produces this phenomena, then being in the middle of a nuclear explosion would produce a similar effect except that its magnitude would be magnified many times. Naturally, being Hubbard, he always picked the biggest cataclysm which he could conceive of so he cited volcanoes where thousand of frozen people were dropped and then the whole group was detonated en masse by an A bomb. The beings themselves would be so disoriented by being at the very center of an atomic bomb explosion that they would for the most part not have much awareness or self motivation. The idea is that these beings had almost all their stable datum pulled out from under then by being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion. Therefore, that is what we find in OT3, disoriented beings, pretty much in a fog, all clustered together, still sentient but barely so.

The host being, the person who is born, unknowingly is supposed to bring with him this enormous cluster of beings who are shocked into a stupor such that their personal awareness and personal initiative have pretty much been disabled. That is the primary reason why they are easy to boss around with one's intention.

Extrapolating a little further, I believe that Hubbard figured that each person on Earth had a huge cluster of beings attached to him because of the OT 3 incident but beings had more singular BT's and clusters attached to them from all earlier explosions and crashes which had ever occurred earlier on their time tracks. That is my understanding of what Hubbard was trying to tell us, when he had us read the OT 3 materials combined with the NOTS materials, covered in session, when NOTs was taken up after OT 3.

Whether a person believes all this is another matter. All loyal scientologists who have read it must believe it. For everyone else, exes or general public, they make their own choice of whether or not they want to buy in to this narrative.
Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Maria, excellent post, thorough with many good points and very humorous to boot! I had one point to make about the BT's. I believe that part of Hubbard's theology assumed that when a group of people die violently in some sort of catastrophe such as cars colliding, a train derailing at high speed, a commercial airliner crashing, etc., that group of people are really knocked for a loop and become very disoriented but in addition to that, they tend to cluster together and also lose their personal identities. What is supposed to happen, according to Hubbard, is that if one of these beings picks up a new body, this whole cluster of beings which formed during the crash comes along with the being taking over the body.

Now, if a car crash produces this phenomena, then being in the middle of a nuclear explosion would produce a similar effect except that its magnitude would be magnified many times. Naturally, being Hubbard, he always picked the biggest cataclysm which he could conceive of so he cited volcanoes where thousand of frozen people were dropped and then the whole group was detonated en masse by an A bomb. The beings themselves would be so disoriented by being at the very center of an atomic bomb explosion that they would for the most part not have much awareness or self motivation. The idea is that these beings had almost all their stable datum pulled out from under then by being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion. Therefore, that is what we find in OT3, disoriented beings, pretty much in a fog, all clustered together, still sentient but barely so.

The host being, the person who is born, unknowingly is supposed to bring with him this enormous cluster of beings who are shocked into a stupor such that their personal awareness and personal initiative have pretty much been disabled. That is the primary reason why they are easy to boss around with one's intention.

Extrapolating a little further, I believe that Hubbard figured that each person on Earth had a huge cluster of beings attached to him because of the OT 3 incident but beings had more singular BT's and clusters attached to them from all earlier explosions and crashes which had ever occurred earlier on their time tracks. That is my understanding of what Hubbard was trying to tell us, when he had us read the OT 3 materials combined with the NOTS materials, covered in session, when NOTs was taken up after OT 3.

Whether a person believes all this is another matter. All loyal scientologists who have read it must believe it. For everyone else, exes or general public, they make their own choice of whether or not they want to buy in to this narrative.
Lakey

Here is the problem and, true, I didn't really touch upon it although I hinted.

If a being coming into a body always has this cluster of disoriented beings attached, then what role does that cluster take in relation to the being who has to drag it around? It makes sense to assume that if there is something unneeded I am dragging around I am not dragging it around because I want to, hence, there is a form of force involved. Something forces me to drag around this sisyphusian 'thing' and I am impelled by that force to both carry it and not know I carry it. Therefore, the OT who is running the BTs is also completely 'knotted' to the cluster and this knot is by force, a compulsion. Whether the OT is less disoriented or smarter or larger as a being is irrelevant to the issue, for me, which is that the OT (and I don't even like that word) is suffering from a compulsion, is forced. This is different from engrams since engrams are charge, mental images containing charge, whereas here we have an OT carrying around BTs with charge, actual beings knotted together, plus he himself is knotted to that knot = charge. Charge contains force. A held down 7 represents a form of compulsion. The OT is a being with no free will who is carrying around a bag of thetan zombies without knowing it. So he has no charge???

As a disclaimer, I believe all this is pure unaldulterated horse puckey. That said, I am going along with the 'logic', however sad that logic is, just to make some points.

So, given the above, that our "OT" is suffering from a compulsion, the effect of a force which causes him to be bound to a mass of disoriented beings, then why? What OT level resolves this? Fine, so one removed all those critters. I still think it is a logical assumption that one must evaluate that the OT also suffers from the incident since on his own he can't just get rid of the blob of BTs but has to run them out. If so, then he too is suffering from the incident. Didn't Ron say that he almost died, practically broke his back discovering it? So it's not simply that the charge belongs to the BTs.

So where does the OT actually run out HIS OWN CHARGE? And, if the OTs charge is merely the BTs charge, then still, the BT functions as a glorified 'living' engram or GPM, which the OT has to run out unless he wants to be weighed down, and forever remain not-OT.

The whole thing is just ridiculous actually. Like I said, say a little prayer and ask God to take away the evil demons gnawing at one's soul.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Its easy to be wise after the event but I believe so. The first
"BT" I ran was on OT 2. Now I'd already read OT3 and knew
the concept of BTs but wasn't expecting to find them on OT 2.
However this one was theta clear or OT. The separation process
was extraordinary. First I thought I was a twin being, then 2 beings
and then she left the body and I had the most intense affinity flows
I've experienced. In the worksheets I noted that "she had so much
love she didn't care if anyone hated her."

I say that the answer to GIb's question has to be no. The reason is that Hubbard alone is allowed to create Scientology tech. It took him about twenty years to develop any tech about BT's, the first official instance being his development of the OT3 materials. In his early taped lectures, he does mention entities a few times but not in any detail. As far as I know, the early student's on the Original OT 3 course would be the first to learn about BT's. Later on around 1973, he published the HCOB, "The nature of a Being." This HCOB is Hubbard's first release of any information about BT's which is released to the public. In this release, he doesn't come out and call them BT's, but he infers that they exist and that all beings on Earth are made up of more than one being.

Therefore, the answer to Gibs question has to be no. If someone else figured out the theory of BT's on their own, they would be sent to Ethics for squirreling and would be ordered to drop that study. If nothing else, by dreaming up such a concept, before Hubbard officially brought it out as his own discovery, a person would also be mixing practices. Hubbard rigged the system so that he got credit for developing all the tech and he states such in the bulletin KSW #1. He does state it in those words but it is stated very strongly using other language.

For example, he states that in the last 30 years, prior to 1965, he has received more than 100,000 suggestions to improve his tech. He states than only about 20 of them had any long term
use and of those 20 none was major or basic.

Certainly, the theory of BT's was both major and basic since it is the backbone of OT 3 and NOTS. All basic and major tech has been developed by Hubbard per Hubbard's own words, at the beginning of every Course pack in scientology. Heaven help someone who though up on his own the theory that BT's existed. If the person made that discovery known or tried to implement it, and it became known to COS Management, that person would have to be written up for squirreling and mixing practices as per KSW #1.
Lakey

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I also object to the idea that the person was really running out the bt's cases in previous auditing.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Been enjoying Naria's posts.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Its easy to be wise after the event but I believe so. The first
"BT" I ran was on OT 2. Now I'd already read OT3 and knew
the concept of BTs but wasn't expecting to find them on OT 2.
However this one was theta clear or OT. The separation process
was extraordinary. First I thought I was a twin being, then 2 beings
and then she left the body and I had the most intense affinity flows
I've experienced. In the worksheets I noted that "she had so much
love she didn't care if anyone hated her."

There is nothing in the universe that prevents a being from pretending to be a BT, and then allowing you to interpret those events in auditing however you wish. Descartes, in 1641 went through that entire scenario with his rendering of the Evil Genius or Evil Demon. The source of what the minds sees cannot be ascertained showed Descartes; all that can be ascertained is that we think. We can't know where the thoughts come from. While I find this a sad philosophy as well (since it considers that reality is based in consciousness which is totally wrong) for those who believe in consciousness there is no way to escape Descartes' point, made in his Meditations part i and ii.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Without realizing it, most of what Scilons and FZers post is the same stuff hashed out since 5000 years ago. Scn was never all that original. The only novel parts are space opera sc-fi and the emeter and the jargon.

<snip>

That is what an advanced degree in philosophy offers - deep understanding of arguments given on many subjects throughout history + learning how to argue thus destroy the arguments of others.

You're such a joy to have around! You can quote all the major philosophers off the cuff and I find that so amazing.

Can you recommend any books for newbies about the history of philosophy and philosophers? Sorta overview-type books, compendiums of sorts, for those like myself who won't have the time to get a degree but want to know more.

Just love your posts on various topics. Need to make more time to read them all.

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

There is nothing in the universe that prevents a being from pretending to be a BT, and then allowing you to interpret those events in auditing however you wish. Descartes, in 1641 went through that entire scenario with his rendering of the Evil Genius or Evil Demon. The source of what the minds sees cannot be ascertained showed Descartes; all that can be ascertained is that we think. We can't know where the thoughts come from. While I find this a sad philosophy as well (since it considers that reality is based in consciousness which is totally wrong) for those who believe in consciousness there is no way to escape Descartes' point, made in his Meditations part i and ii.

What's this about "beings" you mention? When you've painted a beautiful picture, was that you who painted it or just some "being" of unknown origin who took control over your brush?

If you've ever fucked up a drawing or picture, which you most certainly did, was it you who did that or just some "being" of unknown origin?

I'll tell you what: Every melody I've ever created was a conglomerate of stuff I've "heard" in my mind and stuff I've heard somewhere else.

OK, I did create melodies that were partially inspired by something a few birds had sung and on the other hand, I've heard birds in the woods sing melodies (or parts thereof) that they've heard me create and practice in recent months, but so what? I play what I hear and I hear what I (or others) sing or play.

There are people who would swear that some of my melodies and grooves puts an amazing and beautiful spell on them, but I won't discuss that any further - and why should I? I play what I hear and I hear what I play, and when I, during an evening with a few friends, can get a few beers and a nice meal out of that, that's fine with me.

I don't need any babble about "beings of unknown origin" to feel fine or to make others feel fine.

"Beings", my ass...

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

You're such a joy to have around! You can quote all the major philosophers off the cuff and I find that so amazing.

Can you recommend any books for newbies about the history of philosophy and philosophers? Sorta overview-type books, compendiums of sorts, for those like myself who won't have the time to get a degree but want to know more.

Just love your posts on various topics. Need to make more time to read them all.

I agree with you !00% on this. Maria's knowledge of philosophy is amazing as are all of her posts. We are very fortunate to have her here!!!
Lakey

 

[Terril park]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

I have a couple of problems with auditing BTs.

First, it's just weird, the way Scientology assumes that the BTs want to be audited, are in fact BTs and not some other sort of being, that they have the incident in question and need to have it run, and that removing the BT will help the person running the BTs out especially given that often that person doesn't believe in it or did not 'recall it, hasn't actually seen any BTs etc. Oh and the question of whether BTs exist at all.

Yes it seems BTs is a generality. I've experienced one who
seemed greater than I. She was definitely happy to have been
audited or woken up. I could go along with most wanting to
be audited and gaining more self determinism, and I
think the pre OT is likely to benefit also. Alan Walter
used the term spiritual teamates and was happy to have them
around and others have shared that view. Some BTs need/want
grades flown some are SP. I probably havn't covered all possibilities.

There are theories that something about the pre OT attracts BTs
and I think that is a good theory. Akin to John McMasters theory
that something about the PTS person attracts suppression. Later
taken up by LRH in his last public lectures in 1975.

I personally think that the existence of some form of entities is
a fact. My father was an episcopalian priest and biblical scholar,
and he, rare for a protestant, did excorcism. My wife is an assistant
excorcist in a squirrel catholic group from the Philipines. Their theory
is that if excorcism is needed someone placed a curse
on you. In the Philipines although primarily a Catholic nation they
consider the Shaman is at least the equal of a priest. They send
the curse back to the person [often a hired shaman] who gave it.
Not exactly turn the other cheek

Sometimes the affected person speaks for the one who placed
the curse saying I won't do it again and then he's asked to go away.
More polite than thetan hand.

They get a near 100% cure rate I'm told, and all clients have some physical ailment.

Assuming BT lilke beings exist, such a process evaluates for them, not just the OT running the process. How convenient that all the beings who are grafted on happen to be sort of helpless benign and easy to remove, also how convenient that per LRH everyone, BT or OT, has this incident and needs it run out. If nothing else I doubt BTs exist because of how robotic and the same they all seem.

I know it can be argued that hey, I am auditing the BT not the person. But that's not true. If LRH did not feel that OT3 affected the person receiving the process, i.e., these BTS after all were grafted onto the person, then why run it? Certainly it must not be of no consequence from a whole track perspective that the thetan being audited has BTs grafted on. Ouch. So I still stand by the thought that the entire thing is an evaluation.

It is not just one evaluation that is going on. It's many evalulations.

I see it more akin to CCHs. One is running the same process on all
and the result is all come up to present time. What's going on with their individual cases may be different items being discharged.

Really I am not sure why this process is different from what some Christians (catholics) call exorcism and some other Christians (born-agains) call spiritual warfare. In this process, it seems that beings have attacked the person, sort of live inside of them, are grafted on somehow, and by doing a sort of purge or exorcism prayer, the beings are banished, killed, given to God to deal with, sent off to some hole somewhere. Honestly, however wacky such a thing sounds, I have to grant that it is messier thus more 'realistic' and that the 'beings' are not all cookie cutter defenseless BT blobs. I am hard-pressed to see much of a difference though between exorcism and removing BTs. Except that as far as I know a person wanting exorcism does feel plagued with beings and is asking for help and so it's not an eval.

Suppressive BTs are not helpless. A friend of mine has had to deal with them. Yes Exorcism upper levels have similarities.

However someone suffering
physical problems may benefit from another spiritual approach. For
example I did my one and only 10 Aug handling [PTS type 1]on an
Indian lady, and after an hour a day for about a week her stomach
pains subsided. She was Indian from India and such often don't
get as much liberty as in the west. Would an exorcism work better?
Would book 1? dunno but I got the result.

There is even famous Indian poems of how beautiful and
wonderful it is to serve ones husband. No doubt thats why the GO
ordered the handling to stop in case hubby sued.





I find Scientology to be downright Medieval. Anyone see the movie Dark City? Notice the dark lords in it? They remind me of the Scn Ecclesia. Gross, vampirish, afraid of the light ghouls.[/QUOTE]

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Yes it seems BTs is a generality. I've experienced one who
seemed greater than I. She was definitely happy to have been
audited or woken up. I could go along with most wanting to
be audited and gaining more self determinism, and I
think the pre OT is likely to benefit also. Alan Walter
used the term spiritual teamates and was happy to have them
around and others have shared that view. Some BTs need/want
grades flown some are SP. I probably havn't covered all possibilities.

There are theories that something about the pre OT attracts BTs
and I think that is a good theory. Akin to John McMasters theory
that something about the PTS person attracts suppression. Later
taken up by LRH in his last public lectures in 1975.

I personally think that the existence of some form of entities is
a fact. My father was an episcopalian priest and biblical scholar,
and he, rare for a protestant, did excorcism. My wife is an assistant
excorcist in a squirrel catholic group from the Philipines. Their theory
is that if excorcism is needed someone placed a curse
on you. In the Philipines although primarily a Catholic nation they
consider the Shaman is at least the equal of a priest. They send
the curse back to the person [often a hired shaman] who gave it.
Not exactly turn the other cheek

Sometimes the affected person speaks for the one who placed
the curse saying I won't do it again and then he's asked to go away.
More polite than thetan hand.

They get a near 100% cure rate I'm told, and all clients have some physical ailment.





I see it more akin to CCHs. One is running the same process on all
and the result is all come up to present time. What's going on with their individual cases may be different items being discharged.



Suppressive BTs are not helpless. A friend of mine has had to deal with them. Yes Exorcism upper levels have similarities.

However someone suffering
physical problems may benefit from another spiritual approach. For
example I did my one and only 10 Aug handling [PTS type 1]on an
Indian lady, and after an hour a day for about a week her stomach
pains subsided. She was Indian from India and such often don't
get as much liberty as in the west. Would an exorcism work better?
Would book 1? dunno but I got the result.

There is even famous Indian poems of how beautiful and
wonderful it is to serve ones husband. No doubt thats why the GO
ordered the handling to stop in case hubby sued.





I find Scientology to be downright Medieval. Anyone see the movie Dark City? Notice the dark lords in it? They remind me of the Scn Ecclesia. Gross, vampirish, afraid of the light ghouls.

In the end I view the entire thing as a waste of time. I don't deny there are beings. But Scientology has ZERO ability too help them, change them, impact them, remove them, act with or against them. Further such beings have ZERO to do with Incidents as described in OT 3.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Walk around in any park and there are beings. People walking dogs. Children.

There is nothing to handle there. Should I remove any of those people?

There are also beings we don't see. Same thing. Nothing to remove.

 

[Terril park]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

In the end I view the entire thing as a waste of time. I don't deny there are beings. But Scientology have ZERO ability too help them, change them, impact them, remove them, act with or against them. Further such beings have ZERO to do with Incidents as described in OT 3.

You may not have seen this post here from 2010 by a NOTs Dof P.
Michel. Its been verified by another ex NOTS Dof P.



"MICHEL - CANCER AND SUICIDE ON SOLO NOTS
Hello! This thread is to answer Tommy Davis’s glibness.

I met Tommy during my second EPF in the Sea Org (actually a 2 months Boot Camp type of EPF), he was eating beans and rice every day, washing our clothes, doing the worst MEST work you can imagine, doing pumps up for hours...because he fucked up a "VIP" cycle.

At that time he wasn’t so proud to be a Sea Org Member, I can tell you.

Now, let’s talk about cancer and suicide on Solo Nots. Here are some data for you guys.

There is a tag status for each Solo Nots auditor:

Green tag: audit 4 to 6 sessions daily and comes on time for his 6 months check.

Grey tag: audit less than 4 sessions daily and doesn't come on time for his 6 month check.

Orange tag: Not allowed to solo audit because of out ethics situation.

Purple tag: Not allowed to audit because of illness or sickness.

Black tag: Disaffected with the church.

See the way it works? One starts the level with a Green tag then, depending on his "ability to be Cause over Life" one keeps his Green tag or, follow the dwindling spiral to Black tag.

There are about 5,300 Solo Nots Auditors worldwide and about(depending on their current status):

1,000 Green tags
1,100 Grey tags
900 Orange tags
800 Purple tags
1,500 Black tags

The 10,000 on Solo Nots is just a dream. There is only 1,000 of them auditing regularly.

I was Solo Nots D of P Europe and i personally met the following Solo Nots Auditors. They were all with advanced cancer:

• Roberto B. – Italy
• Antonella B. – Italy
• Beppe G. – Italy
• Sonia B. – Italy
• Pierluigi G. – Italy
• Bernard C. – Switzerland
• Jo R. - Switzerland
• Tasa D. – France
• Helene M. – France

There is more, but I do not remember their names.

Before I blew the Sea Org in November 2006,two of them died of committed suicide; Jo R. and Beppe G.

I don’t know if the other ones are still alive.

The majority of the 800 Purple tags and 1,500 Black tags are with cancer, HIV, diabetes and non optimum physical conditions.

The majority of the 900 Orange tags committed financial irregularities to be able to “pay for services and/or donations” to the Cult.

Rex Fowler is a typical Orange tag product of the Cult.

You all know the PTS/SP tech “theory”, right?

How many of them had to disconnect from their family and friends because they where the ”SP”?

Why, after an entire bridge people are still sick, ill, criminal, commit suicide, etc..?

Maybe they didn’t find the real SP yet..... or, if they did, they invalidated the read.

At one point every body on Solo Nots had to do or re do the PTS/SP Course GAT.

And the SNR C/S FSO Richard Reiss (pushed by RTC, of course) was constantly harrassing the Solo Nots C/S "because they didn't apply the PTS tech at 100%" during their C/Sing.

Well, a cancerous tumor is not detectable by a SN C/S as far as i know!

I can attest! Beppe G. had a cancerous tumor the size of an egg in his brain while at Flag to "Attest to OT7"! I went with him to the Clearwater Hospital. He was sent back to Italy right away by RTC....

Imagine the Flap if Beppe died in the middle of the Solo Nots HGC!

These data should be widely disseminated. It’ s not a joke. These guys are really in danger.

Michel.

PS: the medical associations should be aware of this data. Scientology technology doesn't cure cancer....when a cancer isn't detected on time, it's too late. Unfortunalely, from a Scientologist view point, a doctor is considered a charlatan."

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

What's this about "beings" you mention? When you've painted a beautiful picture, was that you who painted it or just some "being" of unknown origin who took control over your brush?

If you've ever fucked up a drawing or picture, which you most certainly did, was it you who did that or just some "being" of unknown origin?

I'll tell you what: Every melody I've ever created was a conglomerate of stuff I've "heard" in my mind and stuff I've heard somewhere else.

OK, I did create melodies that were partially inspired by something a few birds had sung and on the other hand, I've heard birds in the woods sing melodies (or parts thereof) that they've heard me create and practice in recent months, but so what? I play what I hear and I hear what I (or others) sing or play.

There are people who would swear that some of my melodies and grooves puts an amazing and beautiful spell on them, but I won't discuss that any further - and why should I? I play what I hear and I hear what I play, and when I, during an evening with a few friends, can get a few beers and a nice meal out of that, that's fine with me.

I don't need any babble about "beings of unknown origin" to feel fine or to make others feel fine.

"Beings", my ass...

Complaint filed.

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Complaint filed.

For what? For being fair and honest?

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

I was involved in journeying/animism etc. I don't want to go into details here.

But I will say that the most dangerous sport in the world is messing with beings who are not in bodies. One effect of the interaction is called an "energy drain." (Just an example, there are other effects.)
If one would like to be consumed for lunch or dinner or snack, please, by all means, run OT III on some unidentified being.

You may not have seen this post here from 2010 by a NOTs Dof P.
Michel. Its been verified by another ex NOTS Dof P.



"MICHEL - CANCER AND SUICIDE ON SOLO NOTS
Hello! This thread is to answer Tommy Davis’s glibness.

I met Tommy during my second EPF in the Sea Org (actually a 2 months Boot Camp type of EPF), he was eating beans and rice every day, washing our clothes, doing the worst MEST work you can imagine, doing pumps up for hours...because he fucked up a "VIP" cycle.

At that time he wasn’t so proud to be a Sea Org Member, I can tell you.

Now, let’s talk about cancer and suicide on Solo Nots. Here are some data for you guys.

There is a tag status for each Solo Nots auditor:

Green tag: audit 4 to 6 sessions daily and comes on time for his 6 months check.

Grey tag: audit less than 4 sessions daily and doesn't come on time for his 6 month check.

Orange tag: Not allowed to solo audit because of out ethics situation.

Purple tag: Not allowed to audit because of illness or sickness.

Black tag: Disaffected with the church.

See the way it works? One starts the level with a Green tag then, depending on his "ability to be Cause over Life" one keeps his Green tag or, follow the dwindling spiral to Black tag.

There are about 5,300 Solo Nots Auditors worldwide and about(depending on their current status):

1,000 Green tags
1,100 Grey tags
900 Orange tags
800 Purple tags
1,500 Black tags

The 10,000 on Solo Nots is just a dream. There is only 1,000 of them auditing regularly.

I was Solo Nots D of P Europe and i personally met the following Solo Nots Auditors. They were all with advanced cancer:

• Roberto B. – Italy
• Antonella B. – Italy
• Beppe G. – Italy
• Sonia B. – Italy
• Pierluigi G. – Italy
• Bernard C. – Switzerland
• Jo R. - Switzerland
• Tasa D. – France
• Helene M. – France

There is more, but I do not remember their names.

Before I blew the Sea Org in November 2006,two of them died of committed suicide; Jo R. and Beppe G.

I don’t know if the other ones are still alive.

The majority of the 800 Purple tags and 1,500 Black tags are with cancer, HIV, diabetes and non optimum physical conditions.

The majority of the 900 Orange tags committed financial irregularities to be able to “pay for services and/or donations” to the Cult.

Rex Fowler is a typical Orange tag product of the Cult.

You all know the PTS/SP tech “theory”, right?

How many of them had to disconnect from their family and friends because they where the ”SP”?

Why, after an entire bridge people are still sick, ill, criminal, commit suicide, etc..?

Maybe they didn’t find the real SP yet..... or, if they did, they invalidated the read.

At one point every body on Solo Nots had to do or re do the PTS/SP Course GAT.

And the SNR C/S FSO Richard Reiss (pushed by RTC, of course) was constantly harrassing the Solo Nots C/S "because they didn't apply the PTS tech at 100%" during their C/Sing.

Well, a cancerous tumor is not detectable by a SN C/S as far as i know!

I can attest! Beppe G. had a cancerous tumor the size of an egg in his brain while at Flag to "Attest to OT7"! I went with him to the Clearwater Hospital. He was sent back to Italy right away by RTC....

Imagine the Flap if Beppe died in the middle of the Solo Nots HGC!

These data should be widely disseminated. It’ s not a joke. These guys are really in danger.

Michel.

PS: the medical associations should be aware of this data. Scientology technology doesn't cure cancer....when a cancer isn't detected on time, it's too late. Unfortunalely, from a Scientologist view point, a doctor is considered a charlatan."

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I rarely post here, but, it seems Dr. Hubbard the Nuclear Physicist has been completely debunk as a fraud & con man time & time again.

His theory on " clear " has yet to show any proof that any such person exists - or has existed.

" OT " is not a possible conversation until the existence of " clear " has been proven.

Then we get into " BT's & Clusters " which, thus far, the proof of is only what Dr. Hubbard says is true for you !

Some people still have a strong desire to believe & follow his , uh, 'teachings' - & that is fine for them.

However, that I believe in unicorns is no reason for me to expect any other person ( or pet ) to believe in unicorns.

( My unicorns are rainbow colored so if you see any different color on a unicorn they are not mine so you can keep them ).

The difficulty seems to come when I try with my belief ( a belief merely being a thought one keeps on thinking ) to get others to also believe it as true.

There is absolutely nothing that makes my belief true for anybody except me. My perception of the world around me is my reality - not anybody else's

Could it be the dear old Dr. Hubbard the Nuclear Physicist ( skip the sci-fi writer part ) somehow felt what he believed held true for the rest of the world?

Or... does it matter at all what the old boy claimed as truth in scientology that has been so thoroughly debunked & so many respectable reliable people who spent time with the Dr. & have now come forward relaying what they experienced around him.

Then there are these other groups that are going to 'fix' the tech so it really works. Isn't that like today selling passage on the Titanic ?

Perhaps one day the " validity " of the what Dr Hubbard told people can be put to rest for it really was and stop being touted for what it never could deliver ( or has delivered.)

People who got " wins & gains " from scn are free to ignore the placebo effect.

OK - Once again, I'm outta here.