The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Have not read too much Rorty, perhaps I just faded when I tried to read it. LOL. Derrida I like some selections from. Goode I have not read. That is the problem with philosophy. It's too big to do it all so one has to slowly find the philosophers one wishes to be friends with.....

I know what you mean. For me (and I don't claim to be a philosopher), the best way into philosophy is to find a question (or a very few questions) that really interest you and then research what various thinkers of the past have said about them, rather than trying to cover the whole field at once. Not only that; try and find out what you yourself think about them.

I'm a big fan of two people who aren't taken seriously by mainstream philosophers: *Robert Pirsig, who wrote the "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and "Lila" books, and Ken Wilber, author of "A Theory of Everything" and "A Brief History of Everything" amongst other books. Wilber tries to extend the reach of philosophy into the transpersonal (and IMO largely succeeds) and Pirsig's main preoccupations (Quality and Value) are ones I myself very much relate to.

Greg Goode is a part time philosopher with a strong interest in advaita and non-duality; his day job is as an IT manager for a New York corporate law firm. Here's his website;

http://www.heartofnow.com/

* I should probably take that back; the last time I looked you could do a postgraduate degree in Pirsig's "Metaphysics of Quality" in the UK, at the University of Liverpool.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Wow. Fitness boarded. Well I certainly did care about people I audited. And even tried to intervene with the reges to no avail, so I know what you mean. I also gave super long Touch Assists....

Thanks for duplicating me on this topic! You tried to intervene with the reges which could be considered a form of love for your your pc, I audited with love, probably many who really cared about their pc's audited with love quite a bit before COS stopped them. Another area where loving auditing might have occurred in some significant volume was in the area of co-auditing where two friends twin and study a level together and then co-audit the level on one another. I agree with you that church policy did not include love and many execs and C/Ses might have stamped it out quickly if they were able to detect it. However, other C/Ses, yourself included, would have let it slide or might have even promoted it.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Had you seen this Lakey?
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...f-Scientology-is-a-Genocidal-Master-Race-Cult

the link on the op's first post is really quite good.
http://scientologymoneyproject.com/...-scientology-is-a-genocidal-master-race-cult/

No Maria, I had not seen that particular article but I had encountered most of those points in my earlier readings when I was still in COS. The one thing I had never seen before had to deal with the term Homo Novis. That term was used a lot back in the day, (1970's) but I had never read anything which declared that "Homo Novis" was the "Master Race". That is really frightening! It is outright scary! Ditto with kicking the idea around that people below 2.0 on the Tone Scale don't necessarily have the right to live. Actually, I believe that I had encountered that concept twice while I was in COS but in both cases, Hubbard sort of pooh poohed the concept on the grounds that society was not ready to accept such a drastic solution to raise the tone level on this planet.
Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

No Maria, I had not seen that particular article but I had encountered most of those points in my earlier readings when I was still in COS. The one thing I had never seen before had to deal with the term Homo Novis. That term was used a lot back in the day, (1970's) but I had never read anything which declared that "Homo Novis" was the "Master Race". That is really frightening! It is outright scary! Ditto with kicking the idea around that people below 2.0 on the Tone Scale don't necessarily have the right to live. Actually, I believe that I had encountered that concept twice while I was in COS but in both cases, Hubbard sort of pooh poohed the concept on the grounds that society was not ready to accept such a drastic solution to raise the tone level on this planet.
Lakey

Of course how convenient that at any given time anyone can sink to 2.0 on the tone scale and be shot/ sent to the hole.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I know what you mean. For me (and I don't claim to be a philosopher), the best way into philosophy is to find a question (or a very few questions) that really interest you and then research what various thinkers of the past have said about them, rather than trying to cover the whole field at once. Not only that; try and find out what you yourself think about them.

I'm a big fan of two people who aren't taken seriously by mainstream philosophers: Robert Pirsig, who wrote the "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and "Lila" books, and Ken Wilber, author of "A Theory of Everything" and "A Brief History of Everything" amongst other books. Wilber tries to extend the reach of philosophy into the transpersonal (and IMO largely succeeds) and Pirsig's main preoccupations (Quality and Value) are ones I myself very much relate to.

Greg Goode is a part time philosopher with a strong interest in advaita and non-duality; his day job is as an IT manager for a New York corporate law firm. Here's his website;

http://www.heartofnow.com/

I should probably take that back; the last time I looked you could do a postgraduate degree in Pirsig's "Metaphysics of Quality" in the UK, at the University of Liverpool.

Sigh. I have read Pirsig. But not Wilber. And not Goode. There is too much I would like to read....sigh.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I read and viewed some of the COS official reactions to the new movie, "Going Clear" this morning. There was a video of Paul Haggis's ex wife bashing him and other hit pieces on Alex Gibney and Marty Rathbun. These hit pieces are not very creative nor ar they particularly well done. Their thought lines are non sequitur.

For example, in the movie, it is alleged that dozens of top executives of COS who have fallen into disfavor with DM are now sent to "The Hole", two trailers connected together with iron bars on all the windows and a guard 24/7 at the door. Since that site is not open to the public, no actual pictures are available to any film crew. However, according to many former execs who have lived there, some very creditable such as Debbie Cook, the "The Hole" does exist and it is crawling with ants, with no effort being made by COS to handle the ant problem. Gibney shows a seen of ant's crawling around to signify what life must be like for these former top executives.

COS's smear film goes completely non sequitur, just showing the ants crawling and then showing some beautiful area of the Int Base. The theme of the COS response is, Gibney's documentary could have shown the public this (and they show some tennis courts on the base) but Gibney chose to show "ants", then they spend many minutes showing luxury areas at Int base and saying. Gibney could have shown this but instead he showed ants.

Their attack ads are of the same ilk as the tabloid scandal sheets being sold at supermarket check out stands. It's just standard yellow journalism. The facts are that Gibney was discussing the existence of "The Hole" as described by many exes who have actually lived there and instead of responding to Gibney's claim with a direct and honest reply concerning "The Hole", they do a travel log presentation of how beautiful int base is and how many luxurious buildings, studios and athletic venues they have there.

Anyone who follows COS, including all the still active members must know that all the top executives who used to appear at all the big events are no longer visible to the public. I'm talking about Norman Starkey, Heber Jentzsch, Guillarme Lefebre (spelling?), Ray Mithoff, etc. About 6 top executives used to speak at the events and now no one sees them anymore. Where are they? They must be somewhere but COS doesn't address that, they just do a travelogue of Int Base and they feel that they have responded effectively to Gibney's documentary.

I just don't think that smear type yellow journalism tactics are effective in wining over the public any more. That tech, once effective in past ages is tired and old in today's world. The public now recognizes phoney smear campaigns when they see them It's no longer cutting edge tech to respond to specific points of criticism of a well researched and professional documentary with smear tactics against those who participated in making the documentary. I call COS's type of reply, "THE BOY WHO CRIED WOLF TECH" . At one time the counterattack by smearing the other side was an effective tech but it has been used far too long and too often to still be effective. Even in the tech of responding to negative critiques COS is mired in old tech from yesteryear. As usual hey are using 1950's and 60's tech in 2015 and it just doesn't work anymore!!
Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Like just about all who have commented its a pleasure to have
you here.

Especially as you have good knowledge of philosophy.

I have mainly my own experience and evaluation of that
experience. And am open to learning despite somewhat
advanced years, best I can.

You have here given much evaluation.

That the "lovely being" I perceived incorrectly, could
memorize me and suck me dry like a vampire. Even letting it
F/N. [I was F/Ning throughout OT 2 for what thats worth]

However you did not experience what I did and yet reject it.

I presume because of pre conceptions. They can be examined?

You said:-

"The scientific issue there for him was that our bodies are like microscopes. Some see badly. Some have poor hearing. So how can we KNOW what we see. How do we know that the I is real at all?"!

This seems to me as inval? But as struggle for knowledge?

I look through my experience mostly. You look through your learning mostly [I guess]

I think both ways are usefull and probably others also.

Its a pleasure

Well it is fun to be here too. I am sorry if what I said seemed an eval. I was not even speaking of your particular case. I was just speaking rhetorically, if such a thing happened, it could be x. I think I see the problem. Since I don't believe in BTs or in processes, then for me it's all speculative and not real. No insult was directed at you, a person. For me all such things are real in terms of dreams, imagination. Not real in terms of real for everyone. So there is no problem that one person believes they saw what they wish to call a BT. I had a weird dream last night and it was real and in it were beings that no one here has seen. And nothing trumps personal experience so who is to say my dream is not as valid as the Eiffel tower. But for everyone else, it does not exist. It is not real. Etc.

Another thing, I am not an auditor or c/s now, just a person talking about abstract issues in relation to Scientology. Such as, are there BTs (I say no). Are there OTs (I say no). And other related questions. Let me give an example. When I was actively doing journeying/dreaming/shamanism, I would go into dreaming, activate a dreaming self of the maybe 4-5 I had and go do stuff. I have no way to prove to anyone that I had any of these dreaming selves and that the stuff I did really happened, since it was personal. I've not really read anywhere on line about my particular version of 'dreaming selves'. It's certainly not like selves from a past life, or a soul, or an astral body. So another person can say to me, that does not exist. Well for me, on a personal level, it did and it was real. For them it does not exist. My experience is not invalidated because it did not carry over to 'everyone' else or to that other person. True, the dreaming selves did not exist. True they existed for my dream journeys. But what I was doing was not a cult either. So no one else was forced to believe it or try it. In Scn we were all told the BTs exist, you will run them, they are there, and we had to accept it.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I read and viewed some of the COS official reactions to the new movie, "Going Clear" this morning. There was a video of Paul Haggis's ex wife bashing him and other hit pieces on Alex Gibney and Marty Rathbun. These hit pieces are not very creative nor ar they particularly well done. Their thought lines are non sequitur.

For example, in the movie "The Hole" is where dozens of ex top executives are living is brought up. Since that site is no open to the public, no actual pictures are available to any film crew. "The Hole" consists of two trailers connected together with iron bars on all the windows and a guard posted 24/7 at the door. Top executives, live inside, sleeping on the floor and per former execs who have lived there, the trailers are crawling with ants, with no effort being made by COS to handle the ant problem. Gibney shows a seen of ant's crawling around to signify what life must be like for these ex top executives.

COS's smear film goes completely non sequitur, just showing the ants crawling and then showing some beautiful area of the Int Base. The theme of the COS response is, Gibney's documentary is that he could have shown the public this (and they show some tennis courts on the base) but Gibney chose to show "ants", then they show to a sound studio or somesuch and say, "He could have shown them this but they showed them ants." COS's rebuttal spends many minutes showing luxury areas of the base and saying could have shown this but he showed ants.

Their attack ads are of the same ilk as the tabloid scandal sheets being sold at supermarket check out stands. It is just standard yellow journalism. The facts are that Gibney was discusing the existence of "The Hole" as described by many exes, such as the very creditable Debbie Cook, who have actually lived there and instead of responding to that with a direct and honest reply concerning "The Hole", they do a travel log presentation of how beautiful int base is and how many luxurious buildings and studios they have there.


Anyone who follows COS, including all the still active members must know that all the top executives who used to appear at all the big events are no longer visible to the public. I'm talking about Norman Starkey, Heber Jentzsch, Guillarme Lefebre (spelling?), Ray Mithoff, etc. About 6 top executives used to speak at the events and now no one sees them anymore. Where are they? They must be somewhere but COS doesn't address that, they just do a travelogue of Int Base and they feel that they have responded effectively to the movie.

I just don't think that smear type yellow journalism tactics are effective in wining over the public any more. That tech, once effective in past ages is tired and old in today's world. The public now recognizes phoney smear campaigns when they see them It is no longer cutting edge tech to respond to the specific points of criticism of a well researched and professional documentary with smear tactics against those who participated in making the move. My definition for what COS's response pieces are is "THE BOY WHO CRIED WOLF TECH" .

At one time the counterattack by smearing the other side was an effective tech but it has been used for too long a time and too often to still be effective. Even in the tech of responding to books and films which criticize them, COS is mired in old tech from yesteryear. As usual hey are using 1950's and 6o's tech in 2015 and it just doesn't work anymore!!
Lakey

It's a case of how far can you go. The further you go, the further you can go. And once you go there you leave the domain of human being. DM left that domain long ago. In Marquis de Sade's Juliette, and I read it a long long time ago so perhaps I forget some details, there was a monster and he ruled a domain. The concept here was local power. The law of the land of the local power is do as thy wilt for me, everyone else must also do as I wilt. Everyone must follow the rules. The power can set the rules. Most likely the mistake of those execs was to at some point not realize who the power was and therefore to forget to do as the power wilt. Another bit from Juliette of interest is the concept of the 'Petite maison'. The petit maison is a small house out in the country where any matter of licentious illegal things can happen. The petite maison is so far in the country that if someone inside screamed no one would hear it and if someone inside killed another person no one would know. From the outside the petite maison is a lovely cottage one drives by and sees as a smallish dot on the horizon. Thus its torture chambers and all its activities, pleasant or not, are tucked away and become banal parts of the countryside view. In that same book, the way Juliette is advised to learn how to flex her own 'being' and power is to 'sin'. That is, to go as far as she can go. To push beyond what humans consider moral and to do so with a neutral emotion. Without any emotion. Because goes the logic, the more you do so the less it will bother you and the easier it will become. Thus again the concept of take it as far as you can. Now in this process, someone like dm took it as far as he could and for whatever reason, probably cunning and ruthlessness, he rose to become the local power. A good reading of The Prince in conjunction with his rise would probably give a fascinating result. All this said, those trailers and the men in them are as good as toast. If they have families who are out I wonder what if anything their families have done to attempt their extrication. But since they were all adults and joining Scn does not constitute grounds to do what needs to be, then those 'prisoners' will remain prisoners until someone gets to the guards. And I doubt that would even be remotely possible. So say goodbye to the missing since unless there is a miracle they are as good as dead. Sorry to be so blunt.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

It's so sad that right now as we speak, humans are being held against their will in deplorable conditions. That everyone knows it. That no one can do a damn thing about it.
Not the US govt. Not the FZ. Not the indies. Not the exes.

That anyone uses Scn terminology (I sometimes lapse and do, sorry), uses that fascist tech, and has 'wins' while all this is going on, be they FZ or CoS, is deplorable. The main thing of importance that I took from the Going Clear trailer, is exactly this. And of course that Tom Cruise let's his face be used by that local power DM who at the same time hides people in his petite maison and does whatever he wilt to them, THAT is deplorable.

So when I hear about exes doing 'services' it turns my stomach. Because I don't hear that they are doing anything about those held as slaves. And because using the 'tech' is a tacit approval of CoS and what they are doing to human beings. Sorry to be so harsh. But freeing those slaves should be front and center.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I don't find it deplorable ah all. I studied Scn and got auditing after leaving CofS (am ex indie now), husband still has an interest. None of that money of time or effort goes into CofS' coffers. None of it contributes to people being in the hole.

I personally think, however, that the non CofS Scn scene will someday end up piecemeal and absorbed without any Scn or Dn or FZ labels. But be that as it may, all there really is in that scene at present are people pursuing ideas and methods. That's all it is. As long as they don't go setting up or endorsing RPFs, freeloader debts, etc, then I see no problem. If they're just reading a book, using the Data Series or the ARC triangle or auditing, that doesn't contribute to the world's ills.

Again, I personally think it best to get away from ideological labels such as Scientology and so forth, but in any event, somebody liking the Factors isn't gonna be causing any problems.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Freezoners do picket and protest. Getting auditing outside CofS is not mutually exclusive with helping others or with taking a stand against CofS.

Google Lagniappe sometime. She's a Freezoner who sent all kinds of very very damning info about CofS to other critics.

One may as well say no ex or critic is helping get people out of the hole. (which, of course, we never would since it's also not true)

 

[Free Being Me]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

After having been through the $cio cult I've learned ...

Believe in yourself.
Do your own thinking and feeling.
Discard Elcon's cultist circular lying reasoning.
Accept no one as an infallible Guru.
Question beliefs and assumptions.
No one has all the ultimate answers.
The inner qualities of kindness, empathy and compassion come from the heart, not some culty mind mush tehk.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Freezoners do picket and protest. Getting auditing outside CofS is not mutually exclusive with helping others or with taking a stand against CofS.

Google Lagniappe sometime. She's a Freezoner who sent all kinds of very very damning info about CofS to other critics.

One may as well say no ex or critic is helping get people out of the hole. (which, of course, we never would since it's also not true)

Claire, I was being literal. I was referring to those held physically captive who want to escape but are guarded. They have to be extracted. How I do not know. CoS will pull out all stops to make sure they are guarded. I also expressed that they are done. We will never see them again, good as dead.

I was not talking about all the brainwashed who work at CoS. I know that some of those leave each year, and the exes help them do it in various ways, by posting here, by providing other resources.

It is just my belief that Scientology Ethics tech is harmful, and that all Scn tech is harmful. I have clearly explained why in my three blog posts and in many forum postings on exscn.net (mostly on this thread) so I won't repeat the logic since it is long-winded. A link I posted above for Lakey (concerning LRH's view of ethics in relation to those who are below 2.0 and his conception of the Homo Novis as the superior race) is instructive to how even something as innocent as Ethics tech is tainted by LRH's successful Crowleyian "Spell" [Scientology].

In this I think that Atack is right. I saw on the thread that is live right now about the Dublin stream that he discusses the way that using Scientology terminology is part of the problem and he explains why and compares it to the language approved for citizens in the 1984 novel.

I view Scientology as a proto-Nazi type group, having similar master race pretensions and similar sort of 'hypnosis of the masses' pretensions. But their victims will not be just those who practice Judaism. Their victims will be anyone who rejects Scn, who is below 2.0 or who is antagonistic to them. Because Scn lacks global power and is only a local power, as I explained above in another post, that means that it can't go around incarcerating everyone who is below 2.0 or killing people. But if Scientology was in power, it would use it's "ethics" tech as a weapon. It WOULD DO IT. The quotes from LRH and the actions the CoS DOES DO convince me of that.

I think the main goal of exes should be to focus on freeing the slaves and NOT to focus on using tech. That was my point.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Claire, I was being literal. I was referring to those held physically captive who want to escape but are guarded. They have to be extracted. How I do not know. CoS will pull out all stops to make sure they are guarded. I also expressed that they are done. We will never see them again, good as dead.

I was not talking about all the brainwashed who work at CoS. I know that some of those leave each year, and the exes help them do it in various ways, by posting here, by providing other resources.

It is just my belief that Scientology Ethics tech is harmful, and that all Scn tech is harmful. I have clearly explained why in my three blog posts and in many forum postings on exscn.net (mostly on this thread) so I won't repeat the logic since it is long-winded. A link I posted above for Lakey (concerning LRH's view of ethics in relation to those who are below 2.0 and his conception of the Homo Novis as the superior race) is instructive to how even something as innocent as Ethics tech is tainted by LRH's successful Crowleyian "Spell".

In this I think that Atack is right. I saw on the thread that is live right now about the Dublin stream that he discusses the way that using Scientology terminology is part of the problem and he explains why and compares it to the language approved for citizens in the 1984 novel.

I view Scientology as a proto-Nazi type group, having similar master race pretensions and similar sort of 'hypnosis of the masses' pretensions. But their victims will not be just those who practice Judaism. Their victims will be anyone who rejects Scn, who is below 2.0 or who is antagonistic to them. Because Scn lacks global power and is only a local power, as I explained above in another post, that means that it can't go around incarcerating everyone who is below 2.0 or killing people. But if Scientology was in power, it would use it's "ethics" tech as a weapon. It WOULD DO IT. The quotes from LRH and the actions the CoS DOES DO convinces me of that.

I think the main goal of exes should be to focus on freeing the slaves and NOT to focus on using tech. That was my point.

Maria, Rajneeshpuram in Oregon was holding people as prisoners as well in 1984 (they also had armed response units and even helicopters, just as the SO does). They had to give that up, and if it can happen with them I don't see why it can't happen with Scientology as well.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Maria, Rajneeshpuram in Oregon was holding people as prisoners as well in 1984 (they also had armed response units and even helicopters, just as the SO does). They had to give that up, and if it can happen with them I don't see why it can't happen with Scientology as well.

Well you know, power doesn't easily give up power. If the Scilons were to free the slave, damage control concerning what they did to those poor people, concerning what those people know, and who knows what else would be unsurvivable in certain way. So for them, maintaining things as they are and keeping the prisoners in the monster's petit maison is probably something they have no idea how to fix although I don't doubt that on some level they know it's regrettable since they made it worse than it would have otherwise been by adding those crimes on top of other crimes.

I am not familiar with the Oregon group. Will look it up. Weird how these strange 'religions' pop up that need forced sec-check confessions, armed guards, helicopters. Sort of like matrix type MIB. I doubt Divinity, called God or whatever someone calls God, needs to have followers sec-checked. Being omniscient Divinity can just see what is in a soul's mind. And I bring up God because a concept of divinity is part of every religion or at least used to be. And how that divinity somehow is so feeble as to need helicopters and so on to protect its name is hilarious! Humans as God's protectors. LOLOL. Reminds me of the first chapter of Pynchon's novel Vineland. He would commit a crime each year to be able to continue to receive mental disability funds. Perhaps Scientology needs to do all this stuff to keep their version of 'divinity' afloat year to year.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...iarized-from&p=1017282&viewfull=1#post1017282

I know I said it earlier, but I didn't give a full explanation..... This post by mockingbird really covers why the use of Scientology language/terms could be harmful and before doing it should be carefully considered. I am not a proponent of psychology but the parts on the use of language to brainwash is interesting.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well you know, power doesn't easily give up power. If the Scilons were to free the slave, damage control concerning what they did to those poor people, concerning what those people know, and who knows what else would be unsurvivable in certain way. So for them, maintaining things as they are and keeping the prisoners in the monster's petit maison is probably something they have no idea how to fix although I don't doubt that on some level they know it's regrettable since they made it worse than it would have otherwise been by adding those crimes on top of other crimes.

I am not familiar with the Oregon group. Will look it up. Weird how these strange 'religions' pop up that need forced sec-check confessions, armed guards, helicopters. Sort of like matrix type MIB. I doubt Divinity, called God or whatever someone calls God, needs to have followers sec-checked. Being omniscient Divinity can just see what is in a soul's mind. And I bring up God because a concept of divinity is part of every religion or at least used to be. And how that divinity somehow is so feeble as to need helicopters and so on to protect its name is hilarious! Humans as God's protectors. LOLOL. Reminds me of the first chapter of Pynchon's novel Vineland. He would commit a crime each year to be able to continue to receive mental disability funds. Perhaps Scientology needs to do all this stuff to keep their version of 'divinity' afloat year to year.

Here's a link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneeshpuram

 

[Terril park]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

Well it is fun to be here too.

If it isn't fun it isn't ESMB

I am sorry if what I said seemed an eval. I was not even speaking of your particular case. I was just speaking rhetorically,

OK I didn't realize that.

When I was actively doing journeying/dreaming/shamanism, I would go into dreaming, activate a dreaming self of the maybe 4-5 I had and go do stuff.

I had a friend, sadly passed, who did astral walking. I always seem to be attracted to disreputable types. Blatent mixing of practices as she was an auditor and C/S. Even spent a few hours in a pub with Marty,
fortunately he didn't beat me up.

I presume journeying/dreaming/shamanism, is different to astral
walking. Is it 3 different things, or a description of one activity?

One website I looked at described a dreaming self but didn't
talk about having several. If its not too personal I'd be interested
in what that's about.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Looks as if my friend Jose (not really) Marti (a recent new user who appeared a while back) wants to engage in a duel over the issue I raised about the genocidal qualities of the cult. While I would rather not do a wholesale evisceration of his Scilon idealisms, since he is a friend from the old days, I can't as a point of honor refuse if he insists it must be done. Even though it scarcely seems a feminine thing, battling and winning, that is. Sigh.

I told him, if he dares, to begin a thread, make the first move. Hopefully he will spare himself since once he throws down the gauntlet I'd have no choice but to proceed.......

There are many intellectual battles I would not win. But this is not one of those battles....

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The Movie, "Going Clear"

If it isn't fun it isn't ESMB



OK I didn't realize that.



I had a friend, sadly passed, who did astral walking. I always seem to be attracted to disreputable types. Blatent mixing of practices as she was an auditor and C/S. Even spent a few hours in a pub with Marty,
fortunately he didn't beat me up.

I presume journeying/dreaming/shamanism, is different to astral
walking. Is it 3 different things, or a description of one activity?

One website I looked at described a dreaming self but didn't
talk about having several. If its not too personal I'd be interested
in what that's about.

Hi Terril,

Journeying and dreaming are the same thing within the specific strand of native practices I associated with. I studied with a shaman, who studied with a shaman going way back, and he was my only source. There are many things I won't reveal if only because they are unknown to people about those realms and about what really is the case concerning some things. I won't because I don't want to encourage anyone to try it and if I ever do reveal it, I would publish it. Not to make money, just on amazon. Don't hold your breath since it might not happen for a long time if at all.

Shamanism is like saying Christianity. There are as many strands as their are tribes, groups, etc.
Dreaming, as I discussed in my thread on that topic, is not lucid dreaming according to a Western definition. Dream-walking or dreaming with dreaming selves is not astral projection or the use of astral bodies, which is a Western system and which does include 'consciousness' and which has a very regimented list of types of astral 'bodies'. In astral projection, which I did long ago and find it sort of boring, there are 8 astral bodies, linked by a cord, and this system is also tied in to karma (which has zero to do with dreaming) and the Akishic record (which is a distorted and badly understood rendition of the dream worlds/dreaming locations). It would be more accurate to use the Greek view of the under worlds or tunnels or a labyrinth than it is to talk about an astral world.

I can't say much more because there is A LOT to it, it would be very very long-winded and basically go on for many pages. It has lots of side topics, just like the scn 'tech' does. It would involve a completely different view of things, since there is no Western concept of consciousness involved. Past lives? Pathetic misunderstanding of what is really going on. The logic of it all is not easy to understand because it fits no Western paradigm. Most of it cannot be found in New Age sites about journeying or shamanism or dreaming and there are no rituals. Basically if I did talk about it, it would not be an ex-scientology topic and would have to move to the appropriate part of this forum. I don't know how much demand there is for that here. Wouldn't know where to start.

I will say that a dreaming body is a creative thing the dreamer 'dreams' but also that exists in its own right in whatever 'dimension' is assembled for that dreaming journey. The assembled journey is not created by me but I still have to assemble it. I know that is mysterious but to GO there I have to be able to gather the forces related to that location and move to where they meet or assemble. To be able to do this is dreaming. I suppose Scn would call it OT. Dreaming is creative but the dream is not fictional or invented and dreaming is not creative processing. There is no goal such as 'wins'. The analogies are very loose.

As for other practices, CoS IS 'other practices.' The term squirrel is more of their 1984 scare lingo. Laughable to think they control the cosmos and all the dimensions and thought itself via their mumbo jumbo. 'Nuff said.

Beyond all that, I dropped out of these native practices too.