The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

Re: Do Beings Have the Ability to place "Cameras" and "Microophones" around the unive

You're hogging all the best spots!

If everything and everyone is connected, we may just be tuning in to where our interest and attention take us.

Well Hats, as to hogging all the best spots, I don't have an exclusive on any of those times and places. Any person of good faith is more than welcome to join me, especially those who have posted in a creative and sharing manner on the Apollo thread. What fun we could have!!. I see Archimedes running out into the streets of ancient Athens screaming "Eureka", (I have found it), because, while bathing, he discovered how to tell if something was made of pure gold or if it was alloyed with a cheaper metal. That same Archimedes, at life's end, was drawing circles in the sand studying their geometric properties when an enemy soldier who just had overrun the place where Archimedes was located attempted to arrest Archimedes. Archimedes told the soldier, "Don't disturb my circles!" and the soldier killed the greatest scientist of antiquity right there on the spot. Well, it could have been worse, Archimedes did live to a ripe old age before he was murdered.

Probably I was one of the dumb dumbs in ancient Greece with a big ego who was pompous and tried to challenge Plato in debate. Most likely, Plato sought to bring understanding to me by his technique of answering every question which was asked of him with a question directed to his interrogator. Probably, after being made to look bad by Plato, I eventually wised up and got rid of a lot of my ego and came up to knowing that I didn't know.

I saw Aristarcus calculate the diameter of a spherical Earth to within a fraction of 1% by using 2 sundials, one at Athens and one at a far away city, Syracuse, I believe. He did this at a time most people thought that the Earth was flat. Talk about being ahead of your time!

The most fun perhaps was in the Vienna of the late 1800's. My camera and microphone were there in the home of Dr. Franz Anton Mesmer when Mozart's father brought his young son Wolfie there to see the good Doctor's new musical instrument, the glass harmonica, invented in America by the versatile Benjamin Franklin! Wolfie composed a piece for the glass harmonica and shortly before he died wrote an Adagio and Rondo for that little known instrument as well. Here is a link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsPTgSDuh4

The Adagio is slow and spooky. The Rondo starting at 5:50 is light, breezy and childlike. It was written just a month or two before Mozart died. Why so childlike and simple? No one knows for sure but my guess is that Mozart came in as a light, breezy and innocent child prodigy and; upon realizing that he was checking out at age 35, thoughts of his childhood came alive in his mind and he wanted to exit life just as he entered it, being childlike and viewing life as a game which should be fun.

Dr. Mesmer was a real character in his own right, perhaps one of the earliest holistic healers in Europe. He went up against the orthodox medicine of his day with his strange theories of animal magnetism and mesmerism. One of his principles has truth in it; that being his concept of transference, Mesmer thought that if a doctor with good eyesight could get into a sympathetic vibration with a patient with bad eyesight, the doctor could transfer his good eyesight to the patient. Mesmer did achieve some success with this method but he also met with some serious obstacles. First, when a transference successfully occurred, often the patient's bad eyesight transferred to the doctor. To this day, holistic practitioners still have to deal with this problem but techniques now exist to handle this.

Second, was a major scientific flaw. Mesmer's "tech" was based on the scientific believe of that time that an aether permeated all of space because light had to have a medium available to it to create light waves. Otherwise, it was thought, light and warmth from the Sun would not be able to reach Earth. Therefore studying Mesmer's system is now fruitless because Einstein and others, in the Michelson and Morley experiment of the 19th century, disproved the existence of an aether permeating space and when that took place, Mesmer's theories had to be put to bed.

I like your last conclusion, Hats. That would be a pretty good subject. How about doing a post about that subject. That would be appreciated!
Lakey

 

[Leon-2]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I have no difficulty accepting the reality of past lives. It seems to me the simplest explanation of all for the observable phenomena of the human condition. The most basic "proof" of all for me is the simple fact that one lifetime cannot possibly be enough time in which to aberrate a thetan.

I can more or less coherently recall my past 16,000 years or so. Most of the gaps I had in this I filled in during the HRD back in the early '80s. There were good lives and bad ones. Happy ones and miserable ones. But they were all mine. I own them. They all evidenced my ongoing striving for knowledge of the nature of spirituality.

This present life has been the best of them all.

 

[Hatshepsut]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I shared a coach with Ben Franklin in Paris once.

 

[JustSheila]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I have no difficulty accepting the reality of past lives. It seems to me the simplest explanation of all for the observable phenomena of the human condition. The most basic "proof" of all for me is the simple fact that one lifetime cannot possibly be enough time in which to aberrate a thetan.

Oh Crikey, you've got some screwed up beliefs, Leon. It's fine to believe in past lives, but what a negative, Hubbardistic view you have!

20 mins of meditation a couple of times a week is enough to handle ALL of what you call aberrations for me. Others take walks, go sailing or hiking and get the same result.

Life is friggin' awesome!

You may be a big blithering mess, but that doesn't mean everyone else is one. Fuck that shit. I don't care about past lives. It's this one that I am in now that matters.

Get up and dance and get out of your head and take hold of it and live it! :dance2:

 

[JustSheila]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Hey Hats,

I shared a coach with Ben Franklin in Paris once.

Well, shit, I can't say I've done that, but I do have an original copy of an unpublished original photo of Albert Einstein that was given to me by an admirer back in the days I was a gogo dancer. It was a photo taken by his father when he did work on his house. I didn't imagine the photo or remember it, I actually have it. So there! But I do love ya.

Isn't life strange?

[video=youtube;ESER7DFXWiI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESER7DFXWiI[/video]

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I have no difficulty accepting the reality of past lives. It seems to me the simplest explanation of all for the observable phenomena of the human condition. The most basic "proof" of all for me is the simple fact that one lifetime cannot possibly be enough time in which to aberrate a thetan.

I can more or less coherently recall my past 16,000 years or so. Most of the gaps I had in this I filled in during the HRD back in the early '80s. There were good lives and bad ones. Happy ones and miserable ones. But they were all mine. I own them. They all evidenced my ongoing striving for knowledge of the nature of spirituality.

This present life has been the best of them all.

I can recall many recent lives as well, not nearly as many as you can but quite a few. The one thing that's missing for me is absolute certainty. I am looking for an event, an address, even a name which can be verified. One negative for me is never having a first and last name or a city. In most of my incidents I only know my first name, only know my general whereabouts, i.e Paris, Salzburg, Athens, etc.. I always have a good sense of the date but probably that is because Hubbard told us that we know dates down to the nanosecond.

My life as an Austrian bass singer who was in a troupe that wrote and staged popular operas is about the closest I have come to achieving absolute certainty. In a session in 1973, I picked up and ran an incident which took place in Salzburg, Austria. I did not know the name of the person in the session but picked up his name in a dream about a month later. About 25 years later, I had some time to kill in a library waiting for my daughter so I picked up Grove's musical dictionary and was stunned to find that this individual had a 4 page article! He was in Salzburg as a 13 year old, just as my session indicated. He showed musical talent and his parents, living in Andorf, Austria, knew Leopold Mozart and sent their Son from Andorf to Salzburg to study composition with Leopold when their Son was 13. That almost does it for me.

This individual sang the part of Sarastro in The Magic Flute on opening night while his wife sang Papagena. They had 2 children and his wife died at age 36 delivering their second child. I don't remember anything at all about any of that. My only memory is from that one incident run in session in 1973. There is even a good portrait on the internet of this individual. Here is a link:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Fra...ic-timeline.net%2F18th-c%2F1785-89%2F;240;336

I've got some similarities with this photo, the nose is similar and the look in the eyes seems quite similar, which is the most important thing.

That's the closest I have come to knowing a past life for certain. Quite frankly, I am gun shy about accepting things which Hubbard claimed to be true. He duped us, his loyal followers, with so many falsehoods that I am reluctant to accept anything he declared to be true unless it is backed up with facts from independent sources.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Tony Ortega's Underground Bunker had an excellent videl interview of Mike Goldstein talking about his experiences on the Apollo and later on at the Flag Land Base. Ny brother joined staff at the Denver Org in the mid 70's and he became good friends with Mike. My ex wife was also there on staff in 1975 as a 22 year head of the registrars. I got to know Mike fairly well in 1975 when I went to Denver to visit my brother. I stayed at the home of Mike's parents.

Mike is a very intelligent man and a straight shooter, he tells it like he sees it. I had never seen this video before and it reveals of lot of up close data about Hubbard which you probably will not find anywhere else. This video is even on topic for the Apollo 1973 thread!! I highly recommend watching this video:

http://tonyortega.org/2015/04/15/an...ves-scientologys-finance-dictator/#more-21876

Thank you Mike for your honesty, sincerity and all the knowledge you impart to those who watch this video!!
Lakey

 

[Leon-2]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Sheila, I have been walking, hiking, sailing yachts and shagging for many years now and have had incredible highs doing so. But as wonderful as they all were and I treasure their memories, yet none have ever equaled the long lasting benefits I have had from my auditing and training in Scientology.

Simple as that.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I shared a coach with Ben Franklin in Paris once.

According to a dream I had, I was at a receiving line that he was also in in Paris once. LOL. Probably knew you when!

But I don't technically 'believe' in past lives in a linear sense since everything is 'here' now, and time, is, uh, an illusion. From a shaman perspective, it's all happening now in another location, the Ben Franklin events are all going on right now simultaneously. I find that easier to believe and so when I say "I don't believe in past lives", that is why. BUT since I left shamanism behind and don't practice it, I spend zero time caring about such a concept - the its happening here version or the alternate dimensional stuff - and I don't spend time on the its a past life version either.... Basically don't believe in aberrations or that they are grounded in such lives (regardless of timeline structure). I don't put any faith in that. Oh well.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

No, didn't write it. I'm a researcher you might say, since I learned Hubbard learned Rhetoric thru his Dean Wilbur. And since I knew nothing of Rhetoric, I researched. And that research landed me on Rhetoric and Sublime. So, me question to meself was WTF is Subline? And WTF is Rhetoric? And why are the two connected, from my google search.

And then I read this, don't know if you have, it's quite interesting on the progress of language and the mind,

the ancients used the object of desire as first in a communication of thought, while the english language developed to place the "I" of thought first, completely opposite of the ancients. Yoda talk( latin), ie fruit give me, as opposed to in english "I would like some fruit".

It's a difference in logic, the subtleness of it and a difference in language.

https://archive.org/stream/lecturesonrheto31blaigoog#page/n137/mode/2up

The Chapter is "The Rise and Progress of Language"

I recognize folks here will not take the time to read about Hugh Blair and the influence he had at the times, and his understanding of Rhetoric, which means to persuade, which is what Hubbard did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Blair

And this is Thomas Paine using pure logic, as one of the means of persuasion, to get people to think properly, as Aristole favored Logic, to persuade:

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/

Since you cover a lot of ground here, I'll only speak to the ancients and desire....to explain a line of thinking near to my heart, and which also explains why I doubt wins are possible (in a roundabout way).

The theory of vision is closely tied to desire in the ancients. The soul desires truth, beauty and love and its conduit to these is vision....a vision of beauty and truth is to partake in that which is beyond our comprehension....What the ancients notice is that soul can deviate from its 'orbit' around beauty and truth, and this is something like a trike with a loose wheel, eventually if not course-corrected, the path will deviate from the perfect true orbit around the source of truth and beauty....

And when the path deviates, one is exposed to less light and sees less, suffers blindness, and thus desires lesser beauties. And in desiring lesser beauties one gets further and further from the true orbit and from Truth and Love. Until one's vision and desires are now inverted to those lesser beauties (material and changeable 'truths' of this world, situational truths.)

According to both Plato and Plotinus we never LEARN anything for the above reason. We only see or fail to see. Somehow if we could look in the right direction and if we could habituate ourselves to see, we would KNOW. But no learning or evolution or practices would bring about knowing since the soul knows everything already, and if the soul were closer to the source of truth and beauty and love, then the soul would simply know and see since that source would illuminate everything. Thus nothing can be gained or won since as long as one is off course every 'gain' is really a loss and one gets more and more lost. Whereas if one is on course, one knows what was always there for the soul to know, because one is there and sees it and partakes of beauty and love and truth itself. This is not based on wins but simply on where one is, one's location. And one's location has to do with what one loves and desires, thus the desire to know truth and beauty is our direct link to it.

And since the early church fathers, such as Augustine and others, were so reliant on Plato and on other ancient philosophers, they adopted this theory of vision. Of course if any pagan theories went against Christian cosmology they did criticize the ancients on those specific points. But they found that that theory of vision was actually quite in accord with Christianity. For a long time branches of Christianity tried to disavow this connection and deny that this was the case. And some still do. It's a bit pointless however since a) there is no harm in the theory of vision and actually it is beautiful and good b) historical documents affirm that church fathers wrote voluminous amounts on the pagan ancients in order to reconcile their faith with logic; the theory of vision offered a logical way of understanding the relation of finite beings to what is beyond being and beyond finite comprehension (God). Augustine found the metaphor of vision helpful since it allowed him to suggest a way of understanding the finite situation of man, that due to our inability to see and understand, since we are finite, as we get closer to God we also see things better and this helps our understanding. But that when our soul desires lesser material beauties, we get further astray.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Maria,

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...-Apollo-1973&p=1027301&viewfull=1#post1027301

I think every time I found myself in a confusing drama someone misperceived the correct present Time they were in and WHO I was. It is about heavy emotion. But there has to be consequences for allowing that forceful energy to take you over.

Here in my district the crime of domestic murder has hit an all time high. I am thinking that in the Honduras people don't ever get a legit divorce. They just shoot or douse the alienated spouse and kids with flammable liquids or drive the family car into the lake. It is really scarey in some of our sanctuary towns where folks have grown up with rural values. Butchering cows and pigs is only a step away from wringing a human rooster's neck. The Aussies and Kiwis have stories to tell about the odd family... social mores of those in the outback.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city

http://www.ibtimes.com/illegal-immi...s-support-immigrants-awaiting-stalled-1820856

At least now social services can rescue the kids without the community feeling like there will be deportations if the law shows up and does a background check for bench warrants. Somebody will make that 911 call without being punished. Too many children aren't even getting to their 5th birthday. What have men and women become when life is nothing but a ball of abuse. Moms who kill are on my shitlist. What problem are these folks solving other than proving they are not going to stand for being recipients, but can Cause misery too. The pay off must be in Relief. There is always a payoff for behavior.

Perhaps I live in a world of denial where all I want to perceive is art and literature and so on...the news are so dismal and since I am but a tiny fish in a huge ocean it's not in my means to fix anything....

Just thinking out loud.....Relief is of course the subject, and purpose, of Western civilization. All civilization and all techs arise to fix something. Humans want to be reassured 'it can be fixed!' Thus any successful story arc contains variations on this theme of bad events/problem, realizations/explanations of how these affect us, then finally, a solution. For me, this story arc of problem-solution is running dry. For every solution, new problems arise to fix, new solutions arise to fix the new problems, even more problems arise as a result of the new solutions, ad infinitum. This is why the avant-garde viewed successful art as useless, meaningless. To admit being finite and useless was a way of being authentic in a world frantically running around 'fixing' things to no avail. The more difficult to find a theme and the harder to see the plot and the more confusing art and literature are, the closer they are to a nobel prize for that very reason. The 'mu' elevated to the highest value. Now in this I have not said that those nobel texts are badly written or anything of the sort. Only that a gifted artist and writer knows the above and avoids the cliches of the social order. So from the postmodern or high art perspective anything that claims to have solutions and answers is viewed, with this background in mind, as naive.

And most definitely the above is only my own opinion, my own view. Not gospel. Not fact written in stone. There are others who may agree with this view but I'd venture to admit that few do. The Avant Garde was ahead of its time for this reason (and that is its etymology, to be ahead of, the be in the front guard). The masses did not get them then and (in today's art world at least) still don't. And that is ok with me. I'm not dogmatic about it and enjoy that each of us is different. Being able to disagree is a gift. I for one revel in the 'mu'. Hurray for the mu....another way of saying "the ambiguity and finite nature of all human existence." And this means I can accept others as they are, feel no stress that I don't yet know what they are thinking. I don't have to beat myself up if I don't fully capture the essence of or understand others...The point of life is to relate to one another, not to gain full transparency, which would be impossible unless one were godlike. LOL. It means that I can experience other realities and people without having to have them nailed down dead in advance; that I can be vulnerable to others. I like that way of going through life better and find it less pretentious than claiming to have the tech that works.

To accept that we are finite humans with finite ability to fix anything and limited ability to know things and limited ability to conceive of logics would be good first lessons in humility, and a far cry from claims of being or wanting to be 'total cause.'

PS that urban cry for justice you alluded to Hats is often completely blind about a bigger picture, about others, and instead is completely fixed on its own limited reality...me me me....as if its own ego were all-encompassing and its truths applied to others too. (And that is OTness to a T.)

 

[JustSheila]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Sheila, I have been walking, hiking, sailing yachts and shagging for many years now and have had incredible highs doing so. But as wonderful as they all were and I treasure their memories, yet none have ever equaled the long lasting benefits I have had from my auditing and training in Scientology.

Simple as that.

I can't say the same. Imagination and thinking is great, but my most memorable, cherished moments were not in my own head, but in those times I lived life fully with those I love.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Sheila, I have been walking, hiking, sailing yachts and shagging for many years now and have had incredible highs doing so. But as wonderful as they all were and I treasure their memories, yet none have ever equaled the long lasting benefits I have had from my auditing and training in Scientology.

Simple as that.

I am a bit shocked to hear that shagging would be lower on the scale of benefits than 'auditing.' For one thing, shagging continues the existence of the human race.

Alrighty, then.....moving right along.....

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Perhaps I live in a world of denial where all I want to perceive is art and literature and so on...the news are so dismal and since I am but a tiny fish in a huge ocean it's not in my means to fix anything....

Allow me to put in my 2 cents worth. There's nothing wrong with wanting to perceive art, literature, music, etc. If you are fortunate enough to behold art which you find uplifting then your time has been well spent. After all, what does life really boil down to but making good use of one's time. Time will pass, that we cannot change but it is only how we spend our time which we have any control over. The bottom line for each person would be their own judgement on how they spent their own time. It's a person's own judgement which counts for anything, not on how their peers judge them.

If an uneducated char woman believes she spent her time well and led a life worth living then who can argue with her? If she thinks of herself as a major player or a big fish in a pond, who can judge her to be wrong. People can accuse her of being wrong and being small but that doesn't make her small, only she can make herself small.


Just thinking out loud.....Relief is of course the subject, and purpose, of Western civilization. All civilization and all techs arise to fix something. Humans want to be reassured 'it can be fixed!' Thus any successful story arc contains variations on this theme of bad events/problem, realizations/explanations of how these affect us, then finally, a solution. For me, this story arc of problem-solution is running dry. For every solution, new problems arise to fix, new solutions arise to fix the new problems, even more problems arise as a result of the new solutions, ad infinitum. This is why the avant-garde viewed successful art as useless, meaningless. To admit being finite and useless was a way of being authentic in a world frantically running around 'fixing' things to no avail. The more difficult to find a theme and the harder to see the plot and the more confusing art and literature are, the closer they are to a nobel prize for that very reason. The 'mu' elevated to the highest value. Now in this I have not said that those nobel texts are badly written or anything of the sort. Only that a gifted artist and writer knows the above and avoids the cliches of the social order. So from the postmodern or high art perspective anything that claims to have solutions and answers is viewed, with this background in mind, as naive.

What about the efforts to expand the boundaries of human knowledge and to increase the reach possible in human life? A human discovery such as fire is more than a one edged sword. The heat component of fire seems like an effort to provide relief but the ability to cook food using fire appears to me to be more of an effort to enhance life than ti provide relief. You take major discoveries such as fire and major inventions such as the wheel and I don't believe that these two things led is into a problem and solution loop. Now getting into human problems or problems which other life forms encounter, those might well lead into a loop in which case your point would be well taken.

I see being infinite as a sort of no game situation. Perhaps sentient life may have been started by an infinite power such as "God" who wanted a game to play and so decided to temporarily limit his infinite aspect to a finite aspect in an effort to create unknowns and opposition for the purpose of creating and having a game to play.

And most definitely the above is only my own opinion, my own view. Not gospel. Not fact written in stone. There are others who may agree with this view but I'd venture to admit that few do. The Avant Garde was ahead of its time for this reason (and that is its etymology, to be ahead of, the be in the front guard). The masses did not get them then and (in today's art world at least) still don't. And that is ok with me. I'm not dogmatic about it and enjoy that each of us is different. Being able to disagree is a gift. I for one revel in the 'mu'. Hurray for the mu....another way of saying "the ambiguity and finite nature of all human existence." And this means I can accept others as they are, feel no stress that I don't yet know what they are thinking. I don't have to beat myself up if I don't fully capture the essence of or understand others...The point of life is to relate to one another, not to gain full transparency, which would be impossible unless one were godlike. LOL. It means that I can experience other realities and people without having to have them nailed down dead in advance; that I can be vulnerable to others. I like that way of going through life better and find it less pretentious than claiming to have the tech the works.

To accept that we are finite humans with finite ability to fix anything and limited ability to know things and limited ability to conceive of logics would be good first lessons in humility, and a far cry from claims of being or wanting to be 'total cause.'



PS that urban cry for justice you alluded to Hats is often completely blind about a bigger picture, about others, and instead is completely fixed on its own limited reality...me me me....as if its own ego were all-encompassing and its truths applied to others too. (And that is OTness to a T.)

I agree with your last sentence before the PS. I would add that even though our ability is limited, we still have quite a bit more room to push current limits towards what are our maximum limits. Also, I would add that our maximum limits are not cast in stone. Every now and then an individual appears who pushes the maximum limits a bit further than anyone else had ever pushed them previously. The fact that our maximum limits, though finite, can be pushed ever further by incremental amounts is what maintains our willingness to participate in life.
Lakey

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I can't say the same. Imagination and thinking is great, but my most memorable, cherished moments were not in my own head, but in those times I lived life fully with those I love.

As a medal of Honor winner of Panty Waist Dilletante of the year several times
I suggest both paths as worthwhile and valid.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I agree with your last sentence before the PS. I would add that even though our ability is limited, we still have quite a bit more room to push current limits towards what are our maximum limits. Also, I would add that our maximum limits are not cast in stone. Every now and then an individual appears who pushes the maximum limits a bit further than anyone else had ever pushed them previously. The fact that our maximum limits, though finite, can be pushed ever further by incremental amounts is what maintains our willingness to participate in life.
Lakey

Well put. Do you think that this ability to push further came from natural endowment, e.g., a genius such as Einstein did it because he has more gifts or is effort on its own the main cause? I know this is a hard problem. I have no idea. It's like the chicken and the egg for me, so maybe it's unfair to ask it....

As to the char woman. I agree. As to fire and things men do to improve their lot, I also agree. I was mostly speaking emphatically as a course correction to the CoS over-ego... i.e., in metaphysical endeavors. And over-ego tends to happen outside of CoS too...so I was speaking in general terms.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I guess I want to state that some things have intrinsic value not reducible to usefulness....Humanity is based on this truth.... That human life is not expendable, that Human beings are not only valuable if they can produce but that they are valuable because they exist, they are. The reactions of the Avant Garde were not in a vacuum but as a result of WW I. This art trend against utility and expediency continued later, as a protest against the Nazi ethos of WW II which on surface appeared useful, practical, efficient but which in the end was a heartless inhuman threshing machine. So of course the slogan 'keep scn working' rings hollow against that backdrop, filled with the same worn out ugly utilitarian echoes.... This p.s. to my earlier post I hope clarifies a bit what I was saying too obscurely, what results (dictatorship) when a culture limits itself to or idealizes the practical 'handling' and utilitarian treatment of people and forgets the more altruistic human values.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

According to a dream I had, I was at a receiving line that he was also in in Paris once. LOL. Probably knew you when!

But I don't technically 'believe' in past lives in a linear sense since everything is 'here' now, and time, is, uh, an illusion. From a shaman perspective, it's all happening now in another location, the Ben Franklin events are all going on right now simultaneously. I find that easier to believe and so when I say "I don't believe in past lives", that is why. BUT since I left shamanism behind and don't practice it, I spend zero time caring about such a concept - the its happening here version or the alternate dimensional stuff - and I don't spend time on the its a past life version either.... Basically don't believe in aberrations or that they are grounded in such lives (regardless of timeline structure). I don't put any faith in that. Oh well.

I guess I am a hippy, nothing but a metaphysical drop out....

 

[Hatshepsut]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I guess I want to state that some things have intrinsic value not reducible to usefulness....Humanity is based on this truth.... That human life is not expendable, that Human beings are not only valuable if they can produce but that they are valuable because they exist, they are. The reactions of the Avant Garde were not in a vacuum but as a result of WW I. This art trend against utility and expediency continued later, as a protest against the Nazi ethos of WW II which on surface appeared useful, practical, efficient but which in the end was a heartless inhuman threshing machine. So of course the slogan 'keep scn working' rings hollow against that backdrop, filled with the same worn out ugly utilitarian echoes.... This p.s. to my earlier post I hope clarifies a bit what I was saying too obscurely, what results (dictatorship) when a culture limits itself to or idealizes the practical 'handling' and utilitarian treatment of people and forgets the more altruistic human values.

I always wondered what that avante garde movement was all about. I had been looking at photos from the Riviera circa 1930 and the new bohemian culture and cafe' societies mingling. The playwrites, the Ballet Russe, the emerging composers and assorted comrades.
http://www.diegorivera.org/

Painting:
Man_Controller of the Universe

Frida Kahlo mingles with wife of Charles Chaplin___Hollywood's own lovely Paulette Goddard
http://www.paulette-goddard.fr/pgbiographie/pgsesrelations/pgrelationkahloa.html


http://www.paulette-goddard.fr/pgbiographie/pgsesrelations/photosrelations/photogoddardrivera.jpg
Later had personal morals and ethics inspected by the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities

http://www.paulette-goddard.fr/pgbi...ns/photosrelations/photogoddardpanamerica.jpg
notice army boots in upper corner

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well put. Do you think that this ability to push further came from natural endowment, e.g., a genius such as Einstein did it because he has more gifts or is effort on its own the main cause? I know this is a hard problem. I have no idea. It's like the chicken and the egg for me, so maybe it's unfair to ask it....

As to the char woman. I agree. As to fire and things men do to improve their lot, I also agree. I was mostly speaking emphatically as a course correction to the CoS over-ego... i.e., in metaphysical endeavors. And over-ego tends to happen outside of CoS too...so I was speaking in general terms.

Hi Maria, I'm very happy that you took my critique of your post in the constructive manner in which I intended it. Also, I am happy that you agreed with some of the examples which I gave. I do thank you very much for the clarification you present above as to why you were speaking and the fact that you were speaking to over-ego both inside and outside of CoS.

Now, onto the question you directly asked me and the question you compared it to, the chicken and the egg problem, I am going to attempt answers to both questions. First, let me state that I believe that I know the answer to the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Actually, the answer I have is quite simple and it is based totally on empirical evidence.

Consider a similar question, what came first the automobile or the automobile factory? If you consider that question to be on a par with the chicken and the egg question, the answer is immediately apparent!! I think the year was 1889 and the place was in Germany and someone named Gottfried Daimler built the first gasoline powered automobile that worked. Note that no automobile factory had yet been constructed. True, the car had to be built someplace, undoubtedly in Daimler's garage. Various parts had to either be purchased from other sources or be created and produced by Daimler as well. For example, wheels, the suspension system, the car body and possibly the brakes might have been purchased from a horse drawn carriage maker and brought to Daimler's garage. Some might even say that the garage, in this case, was the first automobile factory and therefore the factory came first.

I would maintain strongly that the automobile came first. There is no doubt about it, the garage was a garage and not a factory. All Daimler needed were various parts, various tools, and a space in which to do his assembly. This same sequence applies for probably every product dreamed up by mankind. There were books (or even scrolls) before the first book factory, a prototype tank had to exist before any tank factory could be built, etc., etc.

In fact, the product always has to exist first because the factory must be designed around the product which is going to be built there. How could someone build an automobile factory until at least one successful prototype automobile had become operational? Therefore, I say the a living chicken had to exist before the first egg was hatched!

Your second question is much harder to answer. "Do you think that this ability to push further came from natural endowment, e.g., a genius such as Einstein did it because he has more gifts or is effort on its own the main cause?"

I have never contemplated the question before so let's take a look at it. Definitely Einstein had more gifts than others, there is absolutely no doubt about that but that doesn't do much to answer your question. Other scientists came close to beating Einstein in releasing his Special theory of Relativity, Ernst Mach, Lorentz, and Fitzgerald come to mind. They were close as regards Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. As to his General Theory of Relativity, no one else was close. Einstein got some help from his associates in the new field of quantum physics which was then being developed. Max Plank of Germany pioneered that field along with Heisenberg and others. Plank in particular became a close friend and valuable associate of Einstein, the two played chamber music together. Plank stood up for Einstein against Hitler. Hitler became disgusted and left the conference, muttering about Plank under his breath but Plank was too powerful a figure for Hitler to bring down. The 3rd Reich was showcasing him as their top scientist.

Einstein built on the work of Isaac Newton. Newton had to do his work first, before an Einstein could come along and build upon it some 200 years later. Newton built on the work of others as well but it was basically the one two punch of Newton, then Einstein who led to the physics of today, with a big assist by the pioneers of quantum physics.

Of course, Einstein was encouraged to get involved in physics by his father. He genetic line spanned many generations but no one else in his family showed any particular gift in physics, so it is hard to credit Einsteins genetics for spawning his genius and gifts. One thing about Einstein, he was not inspired by working under some great professor of physics. He worked alone, he did very poorly when studying physics in schools but he had a great capability of thinking outside the box. He venerated Sir Isaac Newton. Among his contemporaries he was close friends with Max Plank until Hitler took power and Einstein left to live in the USA.

So, Maria, it is just my opinion but I believe the answer to your question about Einstein is that Einstein as an individual had more gift than others and the driving force in his life was to use his gift to its full extent. He knew that he didn't know, he knew that he could know more than he did and he knew that even after making major breakthroughs, he still did not know all that much. True, he would not have been able to do what he did had not Newton and several others preceded him and had not his parents encouraged him and supported him but other than that, he was simply one man acting alone. He was driven to solve riddles of the Universe, and acting alone or sometimes with a team of scientists he went about his business, using his genius and his gifts to their fullest extents to see deeper than others had ever seen.

That is all my opinion, maybe with that and $3.95 you could buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
Lakey