The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

And that is why I am an artist!!! Not a farmer. In a painting the potatoes are always fresh and ready to harvest!!

Sure thing, but you'd have to use some very special and expensive sorts of paint and "paper" to give your paintings any form of healthy, nutritional value.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Sure thing, but you'd have to use some very special and expensive sorts of paint and "paper" to give your paintings any form of healthy, nutritional value.

Of course my paints and supplies are stamped top secret!!

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yeah, this "no time" sets my brain to "auto-dismiss" mode. Why? Because If I accepted that concept, I would end up being tangled up in an infinite number of infinite loops, which means I could never come to any sane conclusion about anything.

Example:
Let's say I plant a potato in early springtime and plan to harvest 6-12 "potato babies" from that, approximately 4 months later. So I'm left with 2 possible outcomes:

1. Everything goes as planned and I end up with 3 handfuls of nice, fresh, juicy potatoes.
2. Something goes wrong and I end up with just an old, rotten potato.

Now, if I assumed that everything exists at the same time (i.e. time doesn't exist at all), I'd have to set the "Time" variable to 0. But there's another variable: "Resolution" which, since "Time" is 0, would no longer be a variable, it would now be a quasi-constant named "Infinity". Therefore, if I wanted to put that into a mathematical expression, since I now have two "Infinity" factors, I might end up with a formula like "Infinity²/0".

I have no clue what such a formula might do to the world, but chances are, that I'd end up with no juicy, fresh potatoes.

So why even "harvest" such a thought?

This post is difficult to follow. I suggest you read an elementary book on Relativity Theory to get the basic concepts. I hope that you are not being serious with your examples, I hope you are just kidding around.

In a no time universe, it would not be correct to assume that everything exists at the same time - No, that doesn't equate to time not existing.
What does equate to a no time universe is no duration. What you can have in a no time universe is space, space which can be occupied by a spiritual being, i.e.a potential cause. That's almost all that would be allowed in a no time universe except for one additional step. That step would involve the spiritual being putting a picture into the space. The picture could not contain matter or energy because once those are introduced into the space then duration occurs thus creating a rudimentary time flow.
Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This post is difficult to follow. I suggest you read an elementary book on Relativity Theory to get the basic concepts. I hope that you are not being serious with your examples, I hope you are just kidding around.

In a no time universe, it would not be correct to assume that everything exists at the same time - No, that doesn't equate to time not existing.
What does equate to a no time universe is no duration. What you can have in a no time universe is space, space which can be occupied by a spiritual being, i.e.a potential cause. That's almost all that would be allowed in a no time universe except for one additional step. That step would involve the spiritual being putting a picture into the space. The picture could not contain matter or energy because once those are introduced into the space then duration occurs thus creating a rudimentary time flow.
Lakey

Not defending anything but you just reminded me that Plato would say the entire physical universe is nothing but pictures. (Including matter and energy). What now Sherlock?

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

[... clip clip clip ...]

Our discussion had to do with trying to go back to some critical point on our time line and make a decision whether or not to change course.
I believe that 4 people have weighed in on whether or not they would change anything.
3 said no they wouldn't. I was the only one who said yes, I would.
Our sample size is way too small to be of any value in evaluating the question.

[... clip clip clip ...]

"Our" sample size is of value to each of the people who made their own personal observation of the question.

That may not be of " any value" to one who does not share particular that view .

I'm not sure how one can dismiss others view as "not having any value" merely because one doesn't share them.

I'm going to have to stick on believing that what a person believes is of value to them & it really does not matter who - if even any - agrees with that view or not.

It been posted some would go back & change their own past & why while others have posted why they would not change their past & why.

What I find striking is some one could take the position of deciding what is best for all - rather Godlike, eh ? BUT, I'd give that person that their own view certainly had value to them.

Why does a differing view have to " not have any value " ?

....

Throughout history it would seem that time & time again that one person held an idea which at that point in time had scant - if any - agreement yet latter became recognized as widely applicable truth.

...

Oh Lord, on some kind of life span....... Many believe we are spiritual beings who have a mortal body right now but we ourself are immortal.

There are sci-fi versions, there are New Testament versions & perhaps all sorts of other versions mixed in with God, no God, universal intelligence & other stuff thrown in the mix, too.

I'm pretty sure these bodies we have are going to die as I've held a few as they died. I'm pretty dead certain on that one.

Immortality of the spirit, soul, inner being, true self or what ever one prefers to call it ?

I KNOW what I happen to believe however I'm not going to tell anyone what I happen to believe is what they should / ought to believe as 'true".

There may or may not forever - each will find out for them self.

( And what they believe is of value to them ! )

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

My computer seems to be dying. It just shuts off by itself after a few hours or a few minutes. I have a technician coming over today. He says that I probably need a new computer as this one is about 4 to 5 years old.

I'll probably be off line until some time tomorrow afternoon.
Lakey

 

[Leland]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

My computer seems to be dying. It just shuts off by itself after a few hours or a few minutes. I have a technician coming over today. He says that I probably need a new computer as this one is about 4 to 5 years old.

I'll probably be off line until some time tomorrow afternoon.
Lakey

Could just be the power supply....replaceable....

Or some computers have heat sensors...and might shut down if chip gets too hot......Which to me could mean its just dusty inside..and needs a cleaning.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Could just be the power supply....replaceable....

Or some computers have heat sensors...and might shut down if chip gets too hot......Which to me could mean its just dusty inside..and needs a cleaning.

True, or it could be a popped capacitor on the motherboard (or two); I had it happen to my last computer. There came a point a couple of months ago when the computer wouldn't work at all, and I had to replace it (fortunately, secondhand computers are very cheap nowadays).

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

"Our" sample size is of value to each of the people who made their own personal observation of the question.

That may not be of " any value" to one who does not share particular that view .

I'm not sure how one can dismiss others view as "not having any value" merely because one doesn't share them.

I'm going to have to stick on believing that what a person believes is of value to them & it really does not matter who - if even any - agrees with that view or not.

It been posted some would go back & change their own past & why while others have posted why they would not change their past & why.

What I find striking is some one could take the position of deciding what is best for all - rather Godlike, eh ? BUT, I'd give that person that their own view certainly had value to them.

Why does a differing view have to " not have any value " ?

....What kind of education do you have? Do you know anything about elementary statistics. the bell shaped curve, mean, std deviation and such? Do you know what the term sample size means? If a current vote tally is 3 Nays and 1 Aye, and anyone who knows what they are doing, says that a larger sample size is needed to see how the issue is trending, that implies nothing negative about any particular person of the 4 who already expressed their opinion in the poll.

Throughout history it would seem that time & time again that one person held an idea which at that point in time had scant - if any - agreement yet latter became recognized as widely applicable truth.

...

Oh Lord, on some kind of life span....... Many believe we are spiritual beings who have a mortal body right now but we ourself are immortal.

There are sci-fi versions, there are New Testament versions & perhaps all sorts of other versions mixed in with God, no God, universal intelligence & other stuff thrown in the mix, too.

I'm pretty sure these bodies we have are going to die as I've held a few as they died. I'm pretty dead certain on that one.

Immortality of the spirit, soul, inner being, true self or what ever one prefers to call it ?

I KNOW what I happen to believe however I'm not going to tell anyone what I happen to believe is what they should / ought to believe as 'true".

There may or may not forever - each will find out for them self.

( And what they believe is of value to them ! )

Sorry, I just think that you are not qualified enough in most subjects to debate. I tried several times in the last couple of days to have a dialogue with you and you have not been up to the challenge.

If I see something which illustrates that you know what you are talking about, I may try again. Until then, I'm done reading or replying to your posts. I wish you the best.
Lakey

PS: See my comments above about sample size and statistical analysis

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

True, or it could be a popped capacitor on the motherboard (or two); I had it happen to my last computer. There came a point a couple of months ago when the computer wouldn't work at all, and I had to replace it (fortunately, secondhand computers are very cheap nowadays).

Thanks for the tip, I'll mention it to my techie when he shows up at my house this afternoon.
Lakey

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<chopped, cut, mutilated>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My computer seems to be dying.
It just shuts off by itself after a few hours or a few minutes.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<chopped, cut, mutilated>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Therefore, it MUST have a mind of it's own !

So.....................

While a 'puter can die a physical death as all too may of us have had to experience. Some died far too young for it to be fair & some lived such long productive lives yet others languished in the corner collected dust bunnies.

The serious question that must be faced in all seriousness is the eternal spiritual life of each iteration of our 'puters ( I'm going to look really silly if he said PUTTERS but, hey, same difference, huh ?)

Up there is 'puter Heaven ( or down there is 'puter Hell - same difference isn't it ? ) can my old Win 95 read those Win 8's who left so early ?

Can they hear us plead for help with our confounding new system ? Do they appeal to the 'puter Gods to bring back DOS & run off this new breeds riff-raff clogging the purity of Holy Bandwidth ?

Are they begging for mercy to be shone on we klutzes ?

Are they even up there ? If they are, have they gone on to a new game of their own rules or do they look down upon us & laugh ?

Are they allowed to mess with our progress or can they only observe ? is there a limit on how often - if they even can - come help us by 'puter mental therapy - or telepathy ( same ain't they?)

Does a 'puter just choose to come into our family or it completely random selection off the shelf? Are the one not selected by us hurt because we weren't impressed with the color, size, shape, features?

Did it scar them forever ( or at least until some guru tech convinced them that only He could remove their painful past - for a donation, of course ) ?

What are they doing up there ? Are they wishing they could go back & change some keystrokes that would have changed the course of their path to make it all better now ?

Oh, there is so much to learn of the fate - and history - of our dearly departed 'puters ( or putters, as the case may be ).

If we paid more attention to them while they were here wouldn't they be better off for it ?

How many strokes or how much love bombing does it take to make a 'puter happy ?

Are there all the same or each unique ?

Oh, so very much to delve into about 'put(t)ers....... I'm off to compose some things about 'put(t)ers so I can at least look intelligent on that topic !

What is the appropriate amount of time ( if there really is time ) to grieve for our dead ( are they really ? ) 'put(t)ers ?

Do they even have a spiritual existence ?

later fellow 'puter lovers !

... Oh, can I change my name to Gizmarelda ? That just sounds so much sexy than the bland gizmo !

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Could just be the power supply....replaceable....

Or some computers have heat sensors...and might shut down if chip gets too hot......Which to me could mean its just dusty inside..and needs a cleaning.

Thank you so much for your reply!. My techie has mentioned dust and it is dusty where my computer is located. One thing though on heat. I turned the computer off last night when I went to bed and then turned it on this morning but after about only 10 minutes, it shut down. To my limited understanding that tended to rule out overheating because yesterday, It was on and working for about 18 hours before I turned it off for the night.
Lakey

 

[Leland]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

True, or it could be a popped capacitor on the motherboard (or two); I had it happen to my last computer. There came a point a couple of months ago when the computer wouldn't work at all, and I had to replace it (fortunately, secondhand computers are very cheap nowadays).

Oh,....Yes, you are right Cat's Squirrel....caps do go bad sometimes. I suppose not many do board level repairs anymore.....( but I have. ) Caps are cheap.....and pretty easily replaced....If one goes bad....most of the time it can be spotted visually...(bulging...leaking....popped....)

Or just replace the entire Mother Board...and save the rest of the machine.

But if money is not an issue.....a new computer is nice!!

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Not defending anything but you just reminded me that Plato would say the entire physical universe is nothing but pictures. (Including matter and energy). What now Sherlock?

I am going to write my reply to Maria's post for the third time. The first two times, my computer shut off before I could finish and hit Save. Therefore, I will hit Save every few sentences so if I stop in the middle, you will know my computer is down.

Here we go. Plato lived almost 2,000 years before Newton and was not even familiar with Newtonian mechanics let alone Einstein's and Minkowski's work. Let us call Plato's model of the Universe the Platonic Model. If Plato stated that the physical universe was nothing but pictures (including matter and energy), I have no problems whatsoever with his statement. Only if her were to mention that there is no time in his universe would I have a problem with that statement. Please specify if his model has time or does not have it.

If the Platonic model posits a no time Universe, then I would rule out his model as a possible accurate representation of the actual Universe, simply because his observations were made over two thousand years ago, at a time when much less was known about the physical composition of the Universe then it is now known.

In support of Plator, some of his ideas might still be possible. In a universe with only pictures and nothing else, if those pictures do not move, then something quite akin to "no time" is present. Without movement of things with respect to one another, some filmy sort of time may still exist, it is very hard to detect that time has passed if nothing is in motion. There is some duration of a rudimentary nature in that atoms and molecules, things which Plato did not know existed, are whizzing around in the matter and energy making up the pictures.

Such a state might by called "quasi no time". There is some time passage, due to the movement of sub atomic particles within the pictures but in an analog world with analog sense organs such as humans have, no one will be able to sense any time although an atomic clock might be able to sense it.

There you have it, I got through my post and my computer did not shut down.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Speaking of the knowledge of the early Greeks. I would like to mention two gentlemen named Zeno. Hubbard had his Xenu or Zenu, an evil overlord but the ancient Greeks had two Zenos.

The first Zeno is Zeno of Elia. He came up with a very famous paradox, in fact that was pretty much what he was best known for, inventing paradoxes having to do with time and motion. Zeno's paradox about a fast runner never being able to pass a slower runner, led to the discovery of calculus by Newton in England and Leibniz in Germany, working independently at approximately the same time.

Here is a link to Zeno's paradox on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes

Apparently, Zeno was responsible for 9 paradoxes, the most famous of which concerned a hypothetical race between Achilles, a fast runner and a tortoise, a slow runner. Zeno argued that despite what our senses tell us, if Achilles gave the tortoise a head start, theoretically, he could never pass the Tortoise. Check it out, it is really a fun and interesting paradox. Calculus, developed in the late 17th century, totally resolves the paradox.

My next Zeno is a philosopher, Zeno of Citium, this man was a philosopher and made some speculations about our Universe which were ahead of the knowledge of his time:

Here is a link with some of his quotes: https://www.google.com/search?q=zen...ed=0CC8Qyjc&ei=XtFUVcn9D8ProATphYC4Dg#imgrc=_

Lakey

 

[Leon-2]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

In this universe we are in there is Time. There is also an "outside" of this universe, in which there is neither time nor space nor differentiation. It is not a state of "nothing", but it is a state of "no thing".

Beingness is - but then beingness is not a thing, is it? Neither are considerations nor postulates.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

"Our" sample size is of value to each of the people who made their own personal observation of the question.

That may not be of " any value" to one who does not share particular that view .

I'm not sure how one can dismiss others view as "not having any value" merely because one doesn't share them.

This is the old straw man tactic. Put something there that someone didn't say or suggest and then bash him for it.

I'm going to have to stick on believing that what a person believes is of value to them & it really does not matter who - if even any - agrees with that view or not.

You do that, sounds like a good idea.

It been posted some would go back & change their own past & why while others have posted why they would not change their past & why.

Fix your typos, your post doesn't make sense in its current form.

What I find striking is some one could take the position of deciding what is best for all - rather Godlike, eh ? BUT, I'd give that person that their own view certainly had value to them.

I would find that striking as well but so far, I have not run into anyone who would change the past for that particular reason. Are you inventing another straw man here?

Why does a differing view have to " not have any value " ?

Of course a differing view does have value. Who said that it didn't. Let me know and I will report them to an ESMB moderator. Show me the text which says that and I will report them.

....

Throughout history it would seem that time & time again that one person held an idea which at that point in time had scant - if any - agreement yet latter became recognized as widely applicable truth.

...

Oh Lord, on some kind of life span....... Many believe we are spiritual beings who have a mortal body right now but we ourself are immortal.

There are sci-fi versions, there are New Testament versions & perhaps all sorts of other versions mixed in with God, no God, universal intelligence & other stuff thrown in the mix, too.

I'm pretty sure these bodies we have are going to die as I've held a few as they died. I'm pretty dead certain on that one.

Immortality of the spirit, soul, inner being, true self or what ever one prefers to call it ?

I KNOW what I happen to believe however I'm not going to tell anyone what I happen to believe is what they should / ought to believe as 'true".

There may or may not forever - each will find out for them self.

( And what they believe is of value to them ! )

Take an elementary statistics class and learn the basic terminology, you know, the bell shaped curve, mean standard deviation and all that. In your scenario a sample size of 4 seems to suffice. What is the minimal sample size you deem adequate, 1,2,3 or 4. I know that 4 works for you , what about 3,2 or 1? Just imagine some large company is about to market a new product with a billion dollar launch. They ask four people if they like the product and to tell why the do or they don't. Three of the four like it and one person doesn't. The company spends the billion dollars and bring the product to market and they find that 75% of the people who tried it will never buy the product again because they don't like the taste. They lose their billion dollars, it goes down the tubes and the company closes.

Someone asks the ED, why did you only sample four people? If you had sampled 10,000 people nationwide, you would have seen that 75% don't like the taste. The former ED says, where were you when I needed you. Why didn't somebody explain to me about sample size. Consider yourself explained to!!
Lakey

P.S. - see comments in red in the main body of Gizmo's text.

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

True, or it could be a popped capacitor on the motherboard (or two); I had it happen to my last computer. There came a point a couple of months ago when the computer wouldn't work at all, and I had to replace it (fortunately, secondhand computers are very cheap nowadays).

I bought a secondhand one for £70 about 4 years ago. Still works. Got an
old one from my son, about 6 months ago, and he put in a new hard drive for£30.
No problems.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I bought a secondhand one for £70 about 4 years ago. Still works. Got an
old one from my son, about 6 months ago, and he put in a new hard drive for£30.
No problems.

You did well there Terril. My computer, an Acer midi-tower, was from late 2008 and cost me £100 back in March (I kept the monitor I used with the old one) and works fine. It came with Vista, which I sometimes use although I use Linux most of the time; I'm posting from it now.

 

[strativarius]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I bought a secondhand one for £70 about 4 years ago. Still works. Got an
old one from my son, about 6 months ago, and he put in a new hard drive for£30.
No problems.

I've got a Hewlett Packard 'VECTRA' which is 30 years old! It has an 850 Mb HDD and runs Red Hat Linux (6.0 Hedwig) with 32 Mb RAM and makes a great WEB/TELNET/MAIL/FTP/MySQL server on my LAN which I play with as a hobby! I've had a lot newer machines die on me, but that old box just keeps on rollin'. The one I'm using to write this on is only about 15 years old, so it's a comparative youngster.