The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

In this universe we are in there is Time. There is also an "outside" of this universe, in which there is neither time nor space nor differentiation. It is not a state of "nothing", but it is a state of "no thing".

Beingness is - but then beingness is not a thing, is it? Neither are considerations nor postulates.

Philosophy calls that the 'thing-in-itself'.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Therefore, it MUST have a mind of it's own !

So.....................

While a 'puter can die a physical death as all too may of us have had to experience. Some died far too young for it to be fair & some lived such long productive lives yet others languished in the corner collected dust bunnies.

The serious question that must be faced in all seriousness is the eternal spiritual life of each iteration of our 'puters ( I'm going to look really silly if he said PUTTERS but, hey, same difference, huh ?)

Up there is 'puter Heaven ( or down there is 'puter Hell - same difference isn't it ? ) can my old Win 95 read those Win 8's who left so early ?

Can they hear us plead for help with our confounding new system ? Do they appeal to the 'puter Gods to bring back DOS & run off this new breeds riff-raff clogging the purity of Holy Bandwidth ?

Are they begging for mercy to be shone on we klutzes ?

Are they even up there ? If they are, have they gone on to a new game of their own rules or do they look down upon us & laugh ?

Are they allowed to mess with our progress or can they only observe ? is there a limit on how often - if they even can - come help us by 'puter mental therapy - or telepathy ( same ain't they?)

Does a 'puter just choose to come into our family or it completely random selection off the shelf? Are the one not selected by us hurt because we weren't impressed with the color, size, shape, features?

Did it scar them forever ( or at least until some guru tech convinced them that only He could remove their painful past - for a donation, of course ) ?

What are they doing up there ? Are they wishing they could go back & change some keystrokes that would have changed the course of their path to make it all better now ?

Oh, there is so much to learn of the fate - and history - of our dearly departed 'puters ( or putters, as the case may be ).

If we paid more attention to them while they were here wouldn't they be better off for it ?

How many strokes or how much love bombing does it take to make a 'puter happy ?

Are there all the same or each unique ?

Oh, so very much to delve into about 'put(t)ers....... I'm off to compose some things about 'put(t)ers so I can at least look intelligent on that topic !

What is the appropriate amount of time ( if there really is time ) to grieve for our dead ( are they really ? ) 'put(t)ers ?

Do they even have a spiritual existence ?

later fellow 'puter lovers !

... Oh, can I change my name to Gizmarelda ? That just sounds so much sexy than the bland gizmo !

I am reverse engineering your message. Full stop.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Thank you so much for your reply!. My techie has mentioned dust and it is dusty where my computer is located. One thing though on heat. I turned the computer off last night when I went to bed and then turned it on this morning but after about only 10 minutes, it shut down. To my limited understanding that tended to rule out overheating because yesterday, It was on and working for about 18 hours before I turned it off for the night.
Lakey

I would reformat it assuming no physical parts are fried.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Oh,....Yes, you are right Cat's Squirrel....caps do go bad sometimes. I suppose not many do board level repairs anymore.....( but I have. ) Caps are cheap.....and pretty easily replaced....If one goes bad....most of the time it can be spotted visually...(bulging...leaking....popped....)

Or just replace the entire Mother Board...and save the rest of the machine.

But if money is not an issue.....a new computer is nice!!

Unless it's a throwaway laptop I build my own. Newegg is good for parts.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Speaking of the knowledge of the early Greeks. I would like to mention two gentlemen named Zeno. Hubbard had his Xenu or Zenu, an evil overlord but the ancient Greeks had two Zenos.

The first Zeno is Zeno of Elia. He came up with a very famous paradox, in fact that was pretty much what he was best known for, inventing paradoxes having to do with time and motion. Zeno's paradox about a fast runner never being able to pass a slower runner, led to the discovery of calculus by Newton in England and Leibniz in Germany, working independently at approximately the same time.

Here is a link to Zeno's paradox on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes

Apparently, Zeno was responsible for 9 paradoxes, the most famous of which concerned a hypothetical race between Achilles, a fast runner and a tortoise, a slow runner. Zeno argued that despite what our senses tell us, if Achilles gave the tortoise a head start, theoretically, he could never pass the Tortoise. Check it out, it is really a fun and interesting paradox. Calculus, developed in the late 17th century, totally resolves the paradox.

My next Zeno is a philosopher, Zeno of Citium, this man was a philosopher and made some speculations about our Universe which were ahead of the knowledge of his time:

Here is a link with some of his quotes: https://www.google.com/search?q=zen...ed=0CC8Qyjc&ei=XtFUVcn9D8ProATphYC4Dg#imgrc=_

Lakey

My favorite ancient paradox:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Interesting from point of view of human body (conceived as the ship).

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

My computer seems to be dying. It just shuts off by itself after a few hours or a few minutes. I have a technician coming over today. He says that I probably need a new computer as this one is about 4 to 5 years old.

I'll probably be off line until some time tomorrow afternoon.
Lakey

Computer inexplicably shuts off at random times? That can be anything. Someone with no knowledge, no experience and no clue about computers, might be better advised to save the money for the technician and just buy a new computer.

In one of the first computer jobs I ever had, it was the accounting computer in the office of a group of architects, instant rebooting at random times for no apparent reason whatsoever.

After 2 hours or so, the boss of the office said: "Man, at your hourly rate, this is getting too expensive. I'm afraid we'll just have to buy a new computer."
I said: "Forget my hourly rate. This is interesting and challenging, so I'll do it for free."

It took me 3 fucking days to find and fix the problem: The mouse port had been set to a shared IRQ (standard behavior under Windows). When another device requested the IRQ while you were moving the mouse, Bang! Not even a controlled system shutdown, it was instant reboot.

I fixed the problem by reserving a dedicated, non-shareable IRQ for the mouse port in the BIOS settings and that computer never crashed again.

But as I've said: It could be anything, from a loose cable on the mainboard, to a dust-problem to whatever.

Oh and about dust-problems: Once one of my own computers began to behave crazy, and what was the problem? A fucking dust-bunny! That dust-bunny sat right between the connectors of an extension port and when the airflow from the fans blew at it, it randomly shorted connections. 5 seconds with a vacuum cleaner fixed that one.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I am going to write my reply to Maria's post for the third time. The first two times, my computer shut off before I could finish and hit Save. Therefore, I will hit Save every few sentences so if I stop in the middle, you will know my computer is down.

Here we go. Plato lived almost 2,000 years before Newton and was not even familiar with Newtonian mechanics let alone Einstein's and Minkowski's work. Let us call Plato's model of the Universe the Platonic Model. If Plato stated that the physical universe was nothing but pictures (including matter and energy), I have no problems whatsoever with his statement. Only if her were to mention that there is no time in his universe would I have a problem with that statement. Please specify if his model has time or does not have it.

If the Platonic model posits a no time Universe, then I would rule out his model as a possible accurate representation of the actual Universe, simply because his observations were made over two thousand years ago, at a time when much less was known about the physical composition of the Universe then it is now known.

In support of Plator, some of his ideas might still be possible. In a universe with only pictures and nothing else, if those pictures do not move, then something quite akin to "no time" is present. Without movement of things with respect to one another, some filmy sort of time may still exist, it is very hard to detect that time has passed if nothing is in motion. There is some duration of a rudimentary nature in that atoms and molecules, things which Plato did not know existed, are whizzing around in the matter and energy making up the pictures.

Such a state might by called "quasi no time". There is some time passage, due to the movement of sub atomic particles within the pictures but in an analog world with analog sense organs such as humans have, no one will be able to sense any time although an atomic clock might be able to sense it.

There you have it, I got through my post and my computer did not shut down.
Lakey

I will respond tonight. I am on a train right now. Visited a friend today and she and I drank wine. So I can't type.

 

[Elcrapaco]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Veda,
How was DM able to remove Pat and
Annie Broeker so easily.I had heard in Miami
that this couple were extremely kind and true OT.
I guess I was believing myths again.I find it
unbelievable how a 5 foot one inch asthmatic could
pull off the stunts that DM did.
All I can think is that the spirit of LUCIFER must
have detected weakness in LRH,abandoned him and moved
his abode to DM,whom he sensed was utterly ruthless,?

 

[JustSheila]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Ekrapaco, Jesse Prince was there in the middle of the political fighting when DM got rid of the Broekers and he said he is covering this in his book, which will be out very soon.

 

[Veda]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Broeker holds up big date to impress and reassure the audience at the 1986 Death Event.​

Veda,
How was DM able to remove Pat and
Annie Broeker so easily.I had heard in Miami
that this couple were extremely kind and true OT.
I guess I was believing myths again.I find it
unbelievable how a 5 foot one inch asthmatic could
pull off the stunts that DM did.
All I can think is that the spirit of LUCIFER must
have detected weakness in LRH,abandoned him and moved
his abode to DM,whom he sensed was utterly ruthless,?

Pat Broeker was no OT, but, at the time, he appeared to believe that some others were.

At the 1986 "Death Event," he developed dry mouth and presented a nervous fumbly talk while he explaining that Hubbard had causatively discarded his healthy body because it has become an impediment to super-high-level OT research. He really thought that many in the audience, being OT, could tell that he was lying to them.

Miscavige, who had been the General Manager of Scientology for a while, knew better. He had perfect TR-L. (TR- Lie)

Broeker - being Hubbard's intimate cohort, and maintaining the "I'm not in control of anything" charade along with Hubbard, was, he thought, above the organization - at a level with Hubbard.

When informed that he had committed financial crimes for which the organization would not defend him, and for which the organization would claim ignorance - even though these financial crimes were Hubbard's idea - he, seeking to avoid a mess with the IRS and others, left, or was allowed to leave - but, as we all know he was, and, probably still is, watched.

Miscavige, who had been a favorite of Hubbard, and even had a affectionate nickname given to him by Hubbard, was a natural for the top spot, plus he had been the General Manager (#1 henchmen), with Hubbard's approval, for some time.

Rinder had some things to say about this, recently, although, at this time, I can't find it.

Miscavige becoming the Boss of Scientology is not as strange as it might first appear.

Miscavige is propably the most "On-Source" person in Scientology.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I am going to write my reply to Maria's post for the third time. The first two times, my computer shut off before I could finish and hit Save. Therefore, I will hit Save every few sentences so if I stop in the middle, you will know my computer is down.

Glad you made it through the post!

Here we go. Plato lived almost 2,000 years before Newton and was not even familiar with Newtonian mechanics let alone Einstein's and Minkowski's work. Let us call Plato's model of the Universe the Platonic Model. If Plato stated that the physical universe was nothing but pictures (including matter and energy), I have no problems whatsoever with his statement. Only if her were to mention that there is no time in his universe would I have a problem with that statement. Please specify if his model has time or does not have it.

For him, the physical world was a copy of the original, a picture. The real, or reality, was found in the ideal forms (Beauty, Truth). In some mysterious way he thought that material things 'shared' in the forms. But that the forms and material things were separate. Whatever 'reality' was found in this world came from the forms that material things partake of. But this copy, the cosmos and all that is in it, includes motion. As I said, all material things and energy and everything we think of as real were unreal in his model. So yes, the world has motion but for Plato things that change and move are temporary and lack actual being precisely because they perish and cease to be. Appropriately Plato's view is based on vision, the image. One can experience a vision of the truth. It is a highly idealistic philosophy.

If the Platonic model posits a no time Universe, then I would rule out his model as a possible accurate representation of the actual Universe, simply because his observations were made over two thousand years ago, at a time when much less was known about the physical composition of the Universe then it is now known.

Plato's model is mostly wrong about everything. Yet scientists and philosophers refer to him. His thought has interesting features that still interests many thinkers today and it poses questions and problems that remain unresolved. Bertrand Russell noted that we are still not able to top Plato. This doesn't mean he is 'right' about things. It means that the problems he posed are still important, still unresolved, and still the problems that interest us today in many cases. Here is an example. In this example Plato questions the notion of the source of the good. The poster here quotes from Bertrand Russell, who uses the Platonic argument to explain his atheism. The argument is one that my students read when I was teaching. We didn't read it to find the right answer. We read it to analyze and understand the argument and why the 'problem' is important and worth discussing.
http://www.str.org/articles/euthyphro-s-dilemma#.VVVbT5Mk2wE

My response is the purple prose.
Basically he's wrong about most things but his questions are still relevant and important.

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Take an elementary statistics class and learn the basic terminology, you know, the bell shaped curve, mean standard deviation and all that. In your scenario a sample size of 4 seems to suffice. What is the minimal sample size you deem adequate, 1,2,3 or 4. I know that 4 works for you , what about 3,2 or 1? Just imagine some large company is about to market a new product with a billion dollar launch. They ask four people if they like the product and to tell why the do or they don't. Three of the four like it and one person doesn't. The company spends the billion dollars and bring the product to market and they find that 75% of the people who tried it will never buy the product again because they don't like the taste. They lose their billion dollars, it goes down the tubes and the company closes.

Someone asks the ED, why did you only sample four people? If you had sampled 10,000 people nationwide, you would have seen that 75% don't like the taste. The former ED says, where were you when I needed you. Why didn't somebody explain to me about sample size. Consider yourself explained to!!
Lakey

P.S. - see comments in red in the main body of Gizmo's text.

Ah, the beauty of differing opinions.


But, that was a subtle shift made from the "value" of a single opinion to the "rightness" of a particular opinion.

I'd still have to hold the view that the opinion one person holds is of value, period. That another, or many others happen to hold very divergent views is something else.

Given the " standard bell curve " does one to be at the apex of said bell model or be valueless - if not flat wrong ?

Half way to left or right of the center of the bell curve is now dismissed from any possibility of any value ?

Oh, let not even approach the solitary ones with special names that aren't even ON that perfect bell curve !

So, I leave this rest at a singular view, perception, thought, perspective of another does have value in the same wise that any other ( or group ) of view(s), perception(s), thought(s), perspective(s) have value(s).


giz

PS - who is this ED ? Do I know him ?

giz

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Sorry, I just think that you are not qualified enough in most subjects to debate. I tried several times in the last couple of days to have a dialogue with you and you have not been up to the challenge.

If I see something which illustrates that you know what you are talking about, I may try again. Until then, I'm done reading or replying to your posts. I wish you the best.
Lakey

PS: See my comments above about sample size and statistical analysis

I see there is a point of which we have mutual agreement.

I feel you lack the ability to carry on a discussion.

But, not so "at" you but as an aside comment to others re the 2 gals in Barbados that oh-so-long-ago you waved bye to with out so much as nary a kiss. Remember that ?

Well, it sort of reminded me of a guy standing on the bank in the rain waving goodbye to Noah as he sailed off. That's the noble image I saw.

><((((º> Later, maybe, I might just consider doing one o those ><((((º>fishing tales <º))))>< based on the ones who got away.
Oh, maybe not.
Can't decide, yet. Could be a good yarn.
Hmmm.
What-to-do-oh-What-to-do ? <º))))><

But, surely, as you have described yourself as always well built, trim, well educated, handsome & intelligent that beautiful & willing women have flocked to you all your life & you are just being a gentlemen who doesn't kiss & tell.

giz

PS /\ I do glance over most of ur posts.
They provide comic relief 2 the otherwise droll browsing of threads.
& I'll continue 2 do so.
Perhaps it's better that u not read my posts as they r mostly intended 4 the readers.
As with all, read 'em r don't read 'em as in the scheme of things it doesn't matter anyway.

giz

PPS \/ Time. If there is no time can I get a refund on all these time pieces I've bought.

Wouldn't they be a scam & therefore liable for refunds ? Curious minds want 2 know !

giz

 

[Elcrapaco]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Veda,
I like your TR-L description.I know this sounds crazy but Im absolutely certain that I could overpower DM and incapacitate him.If Pat Broeker,the Aznarans,Rinder,all the execs DM backstabbed I could somehow contact instantly we could all put DM into the RPF,with guards monitoring his every move 24/7.I would be sure Heber Jentsch and many,many other blown sinos would rejoin and the upper management would be changed in a second.This may sound unrealistic but I would do it and could pull it off.Not only that,but if LRH were alive and holding his ground,he would agree.
If DM is on-source,or as you put it,the most onsource person around,then he would be 100% ethical??Maybe I dont comprehend something.but I cant believe LRH willingly let him kick out Annie Broeker and Pat and the Aznarans???
I truly believe that is the correct action for the Church Of Scientology i.e to kick out DM and replace ALL upper mgmt with those who should be there.Once that occurs there would be that sense of Unity like there was at the May 1985 rally I went to in portland,OR challenging the Julie Christofferson verdict.
BTW,Do you know if Frank Stallone is still around??I sold him an electric guitar at that time,May 1985 and at that little park where the festivities were going on.Even though the Church lost,the unity was strong.

 

[Elcrapaco]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gizmo,
No offence but are you ok??,as in,mentally ??There ya go,that should cheer you up.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Veda,
I like your TR-L �� description.I know this sounds crazy but Im absolutely certain that I could overpower DM and incapacitate him.If Pat Broeker,the Aznarans,Rinder,all the execs DM backstabbed I could somehow contact instantly we could all put DM into the RPF,with guards monitoring his every move 24/7.I would be sure Heber Jentsch and many,many other blown sinos would rejoin and the upper management would be changed in a second.This may sound unrealistic but I would do it and could pull it off.Not only that,but if LRH were alive and holding his ground,he would agree.
If DM is on-source,or as you put it,the most onsource person around,then he would be 100% ethical??Maybe I dont comprehend something.but I cant believe LRH willingly let him kick out Annie Broeker and Pat and the Aznarans???
I truly believe that is the correct action for the Church Of Scientology i.e to kick out DM and replace ALL upper mgmt with those who should be there.Once that occurs there would be that sense of Unity like there was at the May 1985 rally I went to in portland,OR challenging the Julie Christofferson verdict.
BTW,Do you know if Frank Stallone is still around??I sold him an electric guitar at that time,May 1985 and at that little park where the festivities were going on.Even though the Church lost,the unity was strong.

Why do this though? I was just getting out the popcorn and your raid seems ridiculous. If the tech is wrong then how does replacing someone fix that? Also it then makes them victims of attack. Why not let it all go? The recent movie and other things are already popcorn worthy. My approach would be laissez-faire. Let it implode on its own based on its beliefs and actions. Sure you could kick everyone out, if you survived a lawsuit. But you'd still end up with Scn itself. Even the old text is flawed. All of it. So changing management just perpetuates the myth that Scn is a religion and is a technology.

Let me even be more unpopular. Yes I find the whole thing useless. For me the experiences as staff were sometimes stupid, such as low pay and the ethics dept (totally and utterly useless blather). Ethics is so weatherlike in their system. LOL. The tech itself was interesting to me but then I had not been exposed to anything else so I didn't realize how limited Scn and Dianetics really are. Saying all that, I really didn't have terrible experiences except for the one time at CCLA when I left after my child came back from daycare looking pretty bad. Other than that I really don't have a complaint. HOWEVER I do know that OTHERS have suffered a lot and were broken. Based on intimate knowledge I can see that, not just hearsay. Being an auditor I saw cases come in and out and I saw how people lost their homes and savings. And other things. In general if CoS stopped being so obssessive compulsive about regging, chilled on the overrunning of TRs and paid their staff minimum wage things would be better. Also, the use of private investigators and other methods of controlling high profile exes just makes them look crass. But replacing management would not guarantee that these changes would take place since the tech itself precludes it. Is that correct that the tech itself leads to these abuses or am I wrong. I was hearing that the green vols are not written in stone....they are guidelines...but I don't know to what degree reforms would be possible without the CoS itself going squirrel. (Which I would think was fine if they did so in order to improve conditions. ) So...the fact they exist does not bother me. What bothers me are certain immoral actions they are notorious for. I don't know that those actions are directly linked to DM or to a specific leader or if they are embedded in the tech.

 

[Elcrapaco]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Maria Cuervo,
Were posting from completely different viewpoints.While I might laugh at OT8 ,as I did in a recent post, I have always believed,nay experienced,the tech to work amazingly.By tech,I am referring to everything below power and power plus.How can you explain that several self improvement groups like EST,its recent incarnation Landmark Education,Lifespring and many other "self empowerment" groups are diluted versions of Dianetics minus the cultlike blows,overts,witholds crap.So if these self help groups like EST/landmark education work for thousands,and theyre based on Dianetics,how can you flaw the tech??I believe we have to distinguish the 3rd dynamic GROUP aspect of Scn which fails miserably.All the admin tech may possibly be crap.And,LRH could still have messed up bigtime after Dianetics.But that doesnt mean the early tech didnt work.Thats just my point of view.The reason to get rid of DM is because if 500 or more scientologists worldwide are posting derogatory comments about this guy,then I doubt theyre all lying.Also,the Scn I knew in england was laissez faire,at least to me.I had a blast and the auditing for 2 years,getting audited almost everyday came to $8000.00.

 

[Elcrapaco]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

@Maria Cuervo
If the paranoid,fairgame El ron were removed from contemporary Scientology,it would work 100 times better.
If someone enrolls at a Werner Erhard training seminar,
they pay the fee and later say "well I tried it out but got nothing from it".Thats the end of it.Theres no refund and no judge would have LMark Educn pay this seminar attendee.No guarantees.
And if Scientology quit hounding people who quit,who left,who badmouth it,nobody would care about the critiques.It would wind upna Caveat Emptor.
All Scn needs,for those who value aspects of the tech,is a whole new laissez faire management who are not operating on the "what was the GI?" mentality.

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gizmo,
No offence but are you ok??,as in,mentally ??There ya go,that should cheer you up.

No offense taken. OK ? No, I'm not OK, I'm fantastic !

To be honest about where I am on any mental scale it seems we'd have to do a bell curve on all of humanity

& see where at the precise moment of that evaluation it was deemed by the powers that be just where I was.

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Veda,
I like your TR-L description.I know this sounds crazy but Im absolutely certain that I could overpower DM and incapacitate him.If Pat Broeker,the Aznarans,Rinder,all the execs DM backstabbed I could somehow contact instantly we could all put DM into the RPF,with guards monitoring his every move 24/7.I would be sure Heber Jentsch and many,many other blown sinos would rejoin and the upper management would be changed in a second.This may sound unrealistic but I would do it and could pull it off.Not only that,but if LRH were alive and holding his ground,he would agree.
If DM is on-source,or as you put it,the most onsource person around,then he would be 100% ethical??Maybe I dont comprehend something.but I cant believe LRH willingly let him kick out Annie Broeker and Pat and the Aznarans???
I truly believe that is the correct action for the Church Of Scientology i.e to kick out DM and replace ALL upper mgmt with those who should be there.Once that occurs there would be that sense of Unity like there was at the May 1985 rally I went to in portland,OR challenging the Julie Christofferson verdict.
BTW,Do you know if Frank Stallone is still around??I sold him an electric guitar at that time,May 1985 and at that little park where the festivities were going on.Even though the Church lost,the unity was strong.

Uh, & you wonder about my mental state ?

I do love your humor !