The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Maria, please listen to this and then tell me if you still think Garland's version is 'unbeatable'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rd8VktT8xY&index=1&list=RD2rd8VktT8xY

No contest IMO.

Dammit! Now where's that box of Kleenex?

Very interesting! I give her an "A" for originality and an "A" for voice and delivery but the thing is that it is no longer the same song nor the same genre. There is a place for a version like this. It sort of reminds me of a heavy metal band singing the Star Spangled Banner at a football game.

Garland's version was created for a 1939 children's movie. She did such a good job singing it, that her rendition has become a classic. There's probably no way to outdo Judy Garland's performance because her performance is so classic that it defines the entire genre!

IMHO other more modern versions are fine. They express a timeless classic in today's musical language. This type of musical effort is good and who knows, it might introduce the song to millenials who might just yawn at the 1939 version and say, "boring".

I reminds me of "A Fifth of Beethoven" written in the disco era being compared to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. No matter what the disco era people wrote, it can never be a greater piece of music than Beethhoven's 5th Symphony because the original piece written in the early 1800's defines a certain genre of music of that era. Still, it was good that "A Fifth of Beethoven was written"

Efforts to compare two musical genres, one from the distant past and the other from today are very interesting but almost by definition, the newer piece cannot be the better of the two.

A copy of the Hope diamond can never be greater or more beautiful the the original Hope diamond. That is what I'm saying.

BTW, for those of you who have never heard it or have heard of it but forgot that it exits, here is "A fifth of Beethoven". Very clever as a disco piece but hardly in the class of the original!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Tr0rhT49k
Lakey

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This the WTF that makes the Opel GT an almost worthless POS even as it was driven off the showroom floor :

Well, driven sedately by a little old lady it probably impressed her as a sleek little jewel.

Ever see anybody over 5'7" get in one ? Or anybody not really skinny ?

Unfortunately, if driven briskly it tended to break. Break what ? The valve train was unusually weak for an internal combustion engine.

First clue after driving it made was oil pouring onto the driveway from various leaks. Probably using 3,000 RPM as an absolute red line might have helped !

The clutch & gearbox did not put up vigorous upshifts or downshifts. The fragile gearbox bearings might have done well in a riding lawn mower.

( We'll stay friends if you don't mind me skipping what they laughingly called an automatic transmission in that thing )

Now the suspension. Took it to an autocross & was almost laughed off the track. It had more body roll than a 55 Buick ! There was no known cure - stock parts or no parts.

I was convinced the electrical system had to be Lucas ( Prince of Darkness ). Those marvelous Armstrong headlights seemed to love to chaff through the wires regularly.

Oh, the fun part ! The local Buick dealer carried Opels & Opel Parts. GM had training galore on their cars & NONE on the Opel. Seems the new hire low end mechanic got the Opels but only had non metric wrenches !

Thank God they let me use their manuals !

The Rallye Sport was no better than the GT in any way, shape or form - except you could count on at least one headlight after dark..

I guess in some sense it was a sports car in that one had to be a sport to give it spin around the block !


Now, in all fairness, when Toyota first hit the US market so were so unreliable the salesman would not take them as their driver for fear of not being able to get to work the next day. True story. The salesman went to the used car lot & took a just traded in whatever to drive home for the night.

Toyota stayed with it. Listened to the complaints. Made improvements year after year & now ARE the market. As did Honda. Nissan & others.

Opel ? Bombed in the US market with cars ill suited to freeway speeds for long spells & the heat of the South & South West - so they turned tail & ran back home to Europe ( as did Fiat ).

VW on the other hand was overall well designed and a real big plus was early dealers went over the cars like they were a Roll Royce.

I always thought one of the cleverest things the VW engineers ( mainly Dr. Porsche ) ever did was to slightly retard the timing on the third cam lobe - that made certain that poor little engine could not be over revved.

The other cute thing was almost twice as many blades on the engine cooling fan as necessary aided it with the over heating problems of air cooled engines.


Oh - For those in the US, today is " Flag day "

Too funny and too true. I never knew about the 3 hole retarded cam. Could that have been the reason for all the 3 hole burnouts on Type 4 engines?

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This the WTF that makes the Opel GT an almost worthless POS even as it was driven off the showroom floor :

Well, driven sedately by a little old lady it probably impressed her as a sleek little jewel.

Ever see anybody over 5'7" get in one ? Or anybody not really skinny ?

Unfortunately, if driven briskly it tended to break. Break what ? The valve train was unusually weak for an internal combustion engine.
First clue after driving it made was oil pouring onto the driveway from various leaks. Probably using 3,000 RPM as an absolute red line might have helped !

The clutch & gearbox did not put up vigorous upshifts or downshifts. The fragile gearbox bearings might have done well in a riding lawn mower.
( We'll stay friends if you don't mind me skipping what they laughingly called an automatic transmission in that thing )

Now the suspension. Took it to an autocross & was almost laughed off the track. It had more body roll than a 55 Buick ! There was no known cure - stock parts or no parts.

I was convinced the electrical system had to be Lucas ( Prince of Darkness ). Those marvelous Armstrong headlights seemed to love the chaff through the wires regularly.

Oh, the fun part ! The local Buick dealer carried Opels & Opel Parts. GM had training galore on their cars & NONE on the Opel. Seems the new hire low end mechanic got the Opels but only had non metric wrenches !
That God they let me use their manuals !

The Rallye Sport was no better than the GT in any way, shape or form - except you could count on at least one headlight after dark..

I guess in some sense it was a sports car in that one had to be a sport to give it spin around the block !


Now, in all fairness, when Toyota first hit the US market so were so unreliable the salesman would not take them as their driver for fear of not being able to get to work the next day. True story. The salesman went to the used car lot & took a just traded in whatever to drive home for the night.
Toyota stayed with it. Listened to the complaints. Made improvements year after year & now ARE the market. As did Honda. Nissan & others.

Opel ? Bombed in the US market with cars ill suited to freeway speeds for long spells & the heat of the South & South West - so they turned tail & ran back home to Europe ( as did Fiat ).

VW on the other hand was overall well designed and a real big plus was early dealers went over the cars like they were a Roll Royce.

I always thought one of the cleverest things the VW engineers ( mainly Dr. Porsche ) ever did was to slightly retard the timing on the third cam lobe - that made certain that poor little engine could not be over revved.
The other cute thing was almost twice as many blades on the engine cooling fan as necessary aided it over heating.

Well, I've never had any problems with my Opels, and I've had several.

The 1.1 liter engine of the Kadett B (called the purple miracle) we had, was awesome, and would make many of these modern "fuel-effective" engines look bad. Although the weakest engine in Opels program at that time, that thing was indestructible. In almost 1 million kilometers, it only blew one head gasket. Best engine I've ever had.

It's true, almost all Opels from that era were oil-leakers but only one type of engine was really bad. Can't remember whether it was the 1.2 or 1.6 liter engine. The 1.9 liter one was OK, the 2.1 liter one with fuel injection was pretty hot already, and the hottest thing I've ever seen was a beefed-up Manta A with a turbo-loaded 3.5 liter engine.

The only problem I've ever had with my old Opel-sweethearts was rust, but at that age, that's hardly surprising, considering North-German climate.

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Very interesting! I give her an "A" for originality and an "A" for voice and delivery but the thing is that it is no longer the same song nor the same genre. There is a place for a version like this. It sort of reminds me of a heavy metal band singing the Star Spangled Banner at a football game.

Garland's version was created for a 1939 children's movie. She did such a good job singing it, that her rendition has become a classic. There's probably no way to outdo Judy Garland's performance because her performance is so classic that it defines the entire genre!

IMHO other more modern versions are fine. They express a timeless classic in today's musical language. This type of musical effort is good and who knows, it might introduce the song to millenials who might just yawn at the 1939 version and say, "boring".

I reminds me of "A fifth of Beethoven" written in the disco era being compared to Beethoven's fifth symphony. No matter what the disco era people wrote, it can never be a greater piece of music than Beethhoven's 5th Symphony because original piece written in the early 1800's defined a certain genre of music. Still, it was good that "A fifth of Beethoven was written"

Efforts to compare two genres, one from the distant past and the other from today are musically very interesting but almost by definition, the newer piece cannot be the better of the two because it is in essence an attempt to copy the older version in today's more modern style and genre.

A copy of the Hope diamond can never be greater or more beautiful the the original Hope diamond. That is what I'm saying.

BTW, for those of you who have never heard or have heard of it or have forgotten that it exits, here is "A fifth of Beethoven". Very clever as a disco piece but hardly in the class of the original!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Tr0rhT49k
Lakey

I've never understood the American fetish for the "original version" of songs. Granted some recordings NAIL it the first time, but music is a fluid art, not a static one. To me, music is in the moment, and ANY song can be a transcendent vehicle. Play songs. Lots of songs. Then play more.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I've never understood the American fetish for the "original version" of songs. Granted some recordings NAIL it the first time, but music is a fluid art, not a static one. To me, music is in the moment, and ANY song can be a transcendent vehicle. Play songs. Lots of songs. Then play more.

The original version is always almost better. Usually, if a non-original version of a song comes on the radio, I'll change the channel.

The only remake I've liked better than the original is Bette Midler's Bugie-Woogie Bugle Boy Of Company B.

Helena

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

So many songs, so many memories...

I remember some rehearsal room, somewhen in the mid-70s, when we wanted to jam this song. The problem: Too many guitarists and no bassist in sight. What can I say? I pulled the short stick. :wink2: So I grabbed the only bass we could find in that room: A nameless piece of shit where someone had just ripped out the frets to make it "fretless".

That was the 1st time I've ever played a bass. Anyway, I must have been not too shabby with that thing, because when that bass solo part came, they just let me improvise for almost 30 minutes, while they delivered the background groove.

After the end of that session, all my fingers were literally hanging in shreds, but a damn fine session it was.

Here's the song we played:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7bilvRfqc4

Dickie was AWESOME until the bottle got him. I wouldn't go see Greg Allman for years because of the rat thing. It wasn't until Dickie forgave him that I returned to the fold. And that led me to the fantastic Warren Haynes. This is a man who first had the thankless task of replacing the legendary Duane, THEN he replaces Jerry Garcia for a bit, THEN comes back to the Allmans to replace Dickie when he got too drunk to deal with.

 

[bromo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This thread is like a perfect convention of adults with ADD. Nothing insulting about that at all since I am one of those. It is just all over the place. LOL



This was my first car. A 1966 Malibu Chevelle. Same color but with a black vinyl top. Many memories were made in that car. Lots of them while driving and a few in the backseat.

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I've never understood the American fetish for the "original version" of songs. Granted some recordings NAIL it the first time, but music is a fluid art, not a static one. To me, music is in the moment, and ANY song can be a transcendent vehicle. Play songs. Lots of songs. Then play more.

When a band demands that I play "just like it's played in the original", it's time for me to leave. I'm a musician, not a copyist.

Also, I find people blabbing about the best song, musician, whatever, annoying. Ask me about great musicians and songs I like, you'll get a list a mile long, but "THE Best"? That's impossible for me to determine.

 

[strativarius]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Very interesting! I give her an "A" for originality and an "A" for voice and delivery but the thing is that it is no longer the same song nor the same genre. There is a place for a version like this. It sort of reminds me of a heavy metal band singing the Star Spangled Banner at a football game.

Garland's version was created for a 1939 children's movie. She did such a good job singing it, that her rendition has become a classic. There's probably no way to outdo Judy Garland's performance because her performance is so classic that it defines the entire genre!
<snip>

I realise that the sound of Judy Garland singing 'Over the Rainbow' is as deeply rooted in the american psyche as apple pie and the superbowl, and that it would take a far more skilful debater than I to persuade you to think again Lakey.

I have just listened to Garland's version again as in my arrogance I just didn't bother heretofore. Yes, it is a polished and listenable performance from a gifted artiste who was given the music and did a thoroughly professional job of rendering the material, but as far as interpretation, musical subtlety, emotional input and expressiveness goes, (and this has got nothing to do with reworking the material for a modern audience) Cassidy's version is IMO far superior. One man's meat...

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Terril's right, VW is a great brand in Europe and many other places as well. However, it is not a luxury brand and that may explain why Maria said, Just a VW.


Lakey

What you and others on your side of the pond may not realise is
that a VW group car is the best in the world. Tested on Top Gear
which has a very irreverent humorous take on car tests. This clip
misses the section proving the Yeti faster than a Ferrari. Sadly Top
Gear has been discontinued after Jeremy punched a producer.
Rumours that the team will all be together again on Netflix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kEJ-pHkWA

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

When a band demands that I play "just like it's played in the original", it's time for me to leave. I'm a musician, not a copyist.

Also, I find people blabbing about the best song, musician, whatever, annoying. Ask me about great musicians and songs I like, you'll get a list a mile long, but "THE Best"? That's impossible for me to determine.

I agree 100%.

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

WTF is so gag-worthy about the Opel GT?

The GT was sexy - mostly useless, but damn sexy. IF you had enough bizeps to operate the "sleepy-eyes" headlights, that is.

I love all VWs, Opels, Vauxhalls etc. from that era, because they all had the Lego-like system: The outside appearance of their different models was so unique, but the "tech" inside was so interchangeable. If you had an Opel engine and gearbox, it fit in any Opel. Kadett, Manta, Ascona, Record, GT, whatever, that stuff fit everywhere. Almost all Opel parts also fit perfectly in any Vauxhall model of that era.

I once had a Vauxhall Chevette. A cute little vehicle and all my old Opel replacement parts fit. Exhaust pipe, gearbox, engine, transmission, shock absorbers, whatever - everything (except the outer body parts) was interchangeable and the best of it all: You could find all these parts on any junk yard, for very little money.

They were quite tough cars. I travelled to Afghanistran in a Vauxhall Viva HA. Someone
visited my friend who travelled with me and said he wanted to scrap his. We decided we'd use it for our trip. [ah! the folly of youth]. I put in new bearing shells and piston rings.
Travelling in Afghanistan using poor quality local engine oil and partially blocking the
radiator as it had no thermostat the engine overheated, and the bearings very quickly
wore out and oil pressure went to zero. We travelled 100 miles to the next town. There I
put in the old bearings, and amazing! we had oil pressure again. Earlier in Turkey the cross member holding up the gearbox broke as it was rusted through. I punched some holes in
the floor pan, and wrapped some wire coat hanger wire which re stored the position of the cross member.

 

[Gizmo]

One Great Car !

This thread is like a perfect convention of adults with ADD. Nothing insulting about that at all since I am one of those. It is just all over the place. LOL

View attachment 10531

This was my first car. A 1966 Malibu Chevelle. Same color but with a black vinyl top. Many memories were made in that car. Lots of them while driving and a few in the backseat.

In '66 I was into sports cars, but, the '66 Malibu became legend - still so highly sought after !

 

[Gizmo]

Different experience from the same thing -

They were quite tough cars. I travelled to Afghanistran in a Vauxhall Viva HA. Someone
visited my friend who travelled with me and said he wanted to scrap his. We decided we'd use it for our trip. [ah! the folly of youth]. I put in new bearing shells and piston rings.
Travelling in Afghanistan using poor quality local engine oil and partially blocking the
radiator as it had no thermostat the engine overheated, and the bearings very quickly
wore out and oil pressure went to zero. We travelled 100 miles to the next town. There I
put in the old bearings, and amazing! we had oil pressure again. Earlier in Turkey the cross member holding up the gearbox broke as it was rusted through. I punched some holes in
the floor pan, and wrapped some wire coat hanger wire which re stored the position of the cross member.

Yours was obviously great for you - my experience was very different - LOL !

That's the way of life !

 

[SPsince83]

Re: One Great Car !

In '66 I was into sports cars, but, the '66 Malibu became legend - still so highly sought after !

The 66 and 67 got lost for a minute by the dazzling beauty of the 68 and 69 and were forgotten somewhat. They have made a big comeback in the last decade or so in the collector conscience.

 

[Gizmo]

Another - our experiences differed.

Well, I've never had any problems with my Opels, and I've had several.

The 1.1 liter engine of the Kadett B (called the purple miracle) we had, was awesome, and would make many of these modern "fuel-effective" engines look bad. Although the weakest engine in Opels program at that time, that thing was indestructible. In almost 1 million kilometers, it only blew one head gasket. Best engine I've ever had.

It's true, almost all Opels from that era were oil-leakers but only one type of engine was really bad. Can't remember whether it was the 1.2 or 1.6 liter engine. The 1.9 liter one was OK, the 2.1 liter one with fuel injection was pretty hot already, and the hottest thing I've ever seen was a beefed-up Manta A with a turbo-loaded 3.5 liter engine.

The only problem I've ever had with my old Opel-sweethearts was rust, but at that age, that's hardly surprising, considering North-German climate.

Different experience, again.

I'll have to claim - on my side - for some reason Opel ( even with GM backing ) pulled out of the US to never return.

 

[SPsince83]

Re: Another - our experiences differed.

Different experience, again.

I'll have to claim - on my side - for some reason Opel ( even with GM backing ) pulled out of the US to never return.

In 1970 I had a green 67 VW Squareback. My friend had a brand new Kadett Wagon. Guess who's car lasted longer?

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Re: Another - our experiences differed.

Different experience, again.

I'll have to claim - on my side - for some reason Opel ( even with GM backing ) pulled out of the US to never return.

Different roads and driving conditions between the US and northern Germany, perhaps? Also, Opel would have been competing with domestic GM makes such as Buick, Chevrolet and Pontiac so could easily be seen as superfluous to that market.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I've never understood the American fetish for the "original version" of songs. Granted some recordings NAIL it the first time, but music is a fluid art, not a static one. To me, music is in the moment, and ANY song can be a transcendent vehicle. Play songs. Lots of songs. Then play more.

What is an American "fetish" for the orignal version of songs?

Here are some definitions of the word fetish. I guess the second definition plus the synonyms support your use of the word so no problem there.

fet·ish- noun
an inanimate object worshiped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.
synonyms: juju, talisman, charm, amulet; More
a course of action to which one has an excessive and irrational commitment.
"he had a fetish for writing more opinions each year than any other justice"
a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.
"Victorian men developed fetishes focusing on feet, shoes, and boots"
synonyms: fixation, obsession, compulsion, mania; More



Why do you single out Americans for having a fetish for the original version of songs? British, Germans, French, Italians, Israeli's, Russians, Japanese, Chines, etc. all share this trait.

I agree with your comments in general about songs. The only point where we disagree is in comparing song's from different era's of music and suggesting that one version can be better than the other. To me, you can make such a comparison but it is very much like comparing apples to oranges. That's all I'm saying.

Let's say that I declare that orange juice from Florida is the best in the world. You come in and say that apple juice from Washington is a superior beverage. Then you comment, "What is with these Americans having a fetish for fruit drinks of Florida. Fruit drinks are drunk for the moment. I say drink fruit juice, lots of fruit juice, then drink more.

I have two disagreements, one small and one bigger. The small one is your inaccurate portrayal of American's holding onto to original versions of music when every culture has the tendency to do that. The bigger one is what I call "comparing apples to oranges". To come to your conclusions, which are correct, you had to compare apples to oranges. You used that step and thus reached a correct conclusion, I will concede that point to you. My objection is that I prefer to compare apples to apples when making comparisons. Maybe you don't see things that same way. No big deal, I'm not saying that you are wrong. We can agree to disagree on that point and still be in agreement with the rest of your post.

I know, beware of too much thinking, I'm being too long winded, too anal. Try and explain what I just did in fewer words, it's a tough concept to express. I made it as concise as I could.
Lakey

 

[SPsince83]

Re: Another - our experiences differed.

Different roads and driving conditions between the US and northern Germany, perhaps? Also, Opel would have been competing with domestic GM makes such as Buick, Chevrolet and Pontiac so could easily be seen as superfluous to that market.

Opel was distributed in the US by Buick. The cars were just pieces of shit. It's a shame because both Ford and GM of Europe have produced some pretty good cars. Nothing in the class of the home grown Germans, of course, but not bad.