The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But
- Thread starter lkwdblds
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lkwdblds
Crusader
I defer to Hiedrun's version
On that second to last line, "Warte nur, balde" if you just use the words verbatim, you get, "Wait, only soon" and this obviously doesn't work so the best shot at keeping the concept and emotion intact is, "Wait, very soon" Then if you introduce a pause, "Wait, ...very soon" that is much better because it expresses the emotion. Looking at alternatives, I hit on "Wait...not long" and then to flesh it out and keep the cadence going, I put "Wait...not for long" Between those three choices, those may be the best that can be achieved, none of which is a perfect translation, but all come close. I prefer "not long" to "very soon". I just thought of another option, "Wait but anon". I just Googled "anon" and it is old English for "in a little while" Since anon is old English and Goethe's writings are from around 200 years ago. I now think "Wait but anon" is the closest translation.
I never did any work in poetry before and this is fun and challenging to translate poetry between languages and still keep both the meaning and the emotions intact. This is just an example of an old ability I had that lied dormant for my whole life until I came to ESMB. Next, I want to recover my musical abiltiy. I was once very well schooled as a composer of music and the whole area has been lost to me and is blank. I want it back! WELL ENOUGH FUN AND GAMES. Goethe's poem sure is beautiful to me, now even much more so than before, since I read your comments!
This is very beautifully done, Lakey!
Only I wouldn't have removed the very plastic image of mountain tops ("Gipfel"). "Heavens" is much more abstract - Goethe paints a picture of nature but then animates it with meaning.
If you also want consistent rhymes, the english text could be like this:
Of silence flows a tune
around the mountains high.
The treetops seem
to barely sigh.
The birdlings dream
in woodsy nest,
Wait.... very soon,
You too shall rest.
For rhymes, see http://www.rhymer.com/
Oh, and the german text has a few mistakes. Here is the original version (I happen to know it by heart):
Über allen Gipfeln ist Ruh.
In allen Wipfeln spürest du
kaum einen Hauch.
Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
ruhest du auch.
Hiedrun: It is so nice to have a person of your stature who's native language is German. I had no idea why Goethe used mountains instead of heavens. I missed the point that he painted a picture of nature and then animated it with life forms, first birds and then mankind. He then promises peace to the sentient species which developed, perhaps a return to its origin of static, perhaps peace in some other way. Totally beautiful and said in so few words. Well in deference to both him and you, I'll change my version back to mountains. I love the rhyming version as well and also thanks for the tip on the site which helps one to rhyme. HOW TOTALLY AWESOME THAT SUCH A GRAND CONCEPT, ALMOST A MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE, CAN BE STATED IN SO FEW WORDS AND MADE SO GRAPHIC THAT ONE'S MIND TURNS ON BOTH AUDIO AND VISUAL WHILE READING IT! NO WONDER GOETHE WAS CONSIDERED THE SHAKESPEARE OF GERMANY
.
On that second to last line, "Warte nur, balde" if you just use the words verbatim, you get, "Wait, only soon" and this obviously doesn't work so the best shot at keeping the concept and emotion intact is, "Wait, very soon" Then if you introduce a pause, "Wait, ...very soon" that is much better because it expresses the emotion. Looking at alternatives, I hit on "Wait...not long" and then to flesh it out and keep the cadence going, I put "Wait...not for long" Between those three choices, those may be the best that can be achieved, none of which is a perfect translation, but all come close. I prefer "not long" to "very soon". I just thought of another option, "Wait but anon". I just Googled "anon" and it is old English for "in a little while" Since anon is old English and Goethe's writings are from around 200 years ago. I now think "Wait but anon" is the closest translation.
I never did any work in poetry before and this is fun and challenging to translate poetry between languages and still keep both the meaning and the emotions intact. This is just an example of an old ability I had that lied dormant for my whole life until I came to ESMB. Next, I want to recover my musical abiltiy. I was once very well schooled as a composer of music and the whole area has been lost to me and is blank. I want it back! WELL ENOUGH FUN AND GAMES. Goethe's poem sure is beautiful to me, now even much more so than before, since I read your comments!
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lkwdblds
Crusader
If Hiedrun doesn't know it....
Leon, If Hiedrun doesn't know it, I sure do not know it. I know Haifisch means shark and that is just because of the Bobby Darrin hit song "Mack the knife" taken from the "Three Penny Opera" written in Germany by Kurt Weil during the Weimar Republic days between WWI and WWII. The Darrin song also mentions "Miss Lotte Lenya" and that was Weil's wife who starred in the operetta back in the early 1930's, just before Hitler came to power. Since, Weil was a Jew, the operetta was immediately closed down and removed from German history soon after the Nazi's took power. Fortunately, the Operetta was restored to German history after the war.
With my limited knowledge of German, I would translate "Und da sein wir wieder bei Haifischen" as "And there we are, once again, amid sharks" I just did a Google search using Goethe poem with keyword Haifischen and it yielded three possiblities, One was Goethe's poem Der Erlkonig (the Erlking) from 1778. I skimmed the entire poem and could not find the line you are looking for. The second possiblity is the German Rock band Rammstein and it says they often derive lyrics for some of their songs from Goethe poems and third, and this is the one I suspect might be true is that a lot of the lyrics for the Three Penny Opera were taken from Goethe's writings and the term "shark" plays a central point in that opera so that the passage you heard could be taken from context out of the Three Penny Opera.
One more anectdote, I Googled Lotte Lenya about a year ago and found that she lived much longer and was an actress on into the 1970's. In the James Bond movie, "From Russia with Love". she played that Soviet agent who has knife blades shoot out from the soles of her shoes so she can kill her enemies.
Lakey
Leon, If Hiedrun doesn't know it, I sure do not know it. I know Haifisch means shark and that is just because of the Bobby Darrin hit song "Mack the knife" taken from the "Three Penny Opera" written in Germany by Kurt Weil during the Weimar Republic days between WWI and WWII. The Darrin song also mentions "Miss Lotte Lenya" and that was Weil's wife who starred in the operetta back in the early 1930's, just before Hitler came to power. Since, Weil was a Jew, the operetta was immediately closed down and removed from German history soon after the Nazi's took power. Fortunately, the Operetta was restored to German history after the war.
With my limited knowledge of German, I would translate "Und da sein wir wieder bei Haifischen" as "And there we are, once again, amid sharks" I just did a Google search using Goethe poem with keyword Haifischen and it yielded three possiblities, One was Goethe's poem Der Erlkonig (the Erlking) from 1778. I skimmed the entire poem and could not find the line you are looking for. The second possiblity is the German Rock band Rammstein and it says they often derive lyrics for some of their songs from Goethe poems and third, and this is the one I suspect might be true is that a lot of the lyrics for the Three Penny Opera were taken from Goethe's writings and the term "shark" plays a central point in that opera so that the passage you heard could be taken from context out of the Three Penny Opera.
One more anectdote, I Googled Lotte Lenya about a year ago and found that she lived much longer and was an actress on into the 1970's. In the James Bond movie, "From Russia with Love". she played that Soviet agent who has knife blades shoot out from the soles of her shoes so she can kill her enemies.
Lakey
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hbeer
Patron with Honors
Hi Lakey,
this really inspired me too. I spent quite a while on the english version of the poem. Actually, if I could follow my heart, I would be a writer, not a software developer, and poetry is especially dear to me!
Now, one more little detail. "Warte nur" doesn't mean "wait, only". It cannot be translated verbatim. It means "just wait". So your translation did a very good job.
.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Leon, those two divisions of Jewish people you wrote of have cultural, national, linguistic differences, just as the Ethiopian jews do with Russian jews. So maybe that helps to explain it a little bit?
My take on the beauty of the writings, chants, etc. of the asian wisdom traditions/religions, is that they came about as a response to the writer's personal observation of the degraded conditions in societies there....not so much as in an attempt to "handle" them, as prosletizing western religions such as Scientology or evangelical Christians might do.
"Out of the deepest, darkest mud, the most beautiful lily grows..."
That the purpose is not to reform society (improve outward physical conditions in a western sense), but to personally transcend the effects of living in flawed and harmful human societies.
Just my take on it...
Thanks for the beautiful poetry and multiple translations, guys! Very well done!
My take on the beauty of the writings, chants, etc. of the asian wisdom traditions/religions, is that they came about as a response to the writer's personal observation of the degraded conditions in societies there....not so much as in an attempt to "handle" them, as prosletizing western religions such as Scientology or evangelical Christians might do.
"Out of the deepest, darkest mud, the most beautiful lily grows..."
That the purpose is not to reform society (improve outward physical conditions in a western sense), but to personally transcend the effects of living in flawed and harmful human societies.
Just my take on it...
Thanks for the beautiful poetry and multiple translations, guys! Very well done!
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hbeer
Patron with Honors
I thought that was the english translation of the first line of Schiller's "Ode to Joy" ("Freude, schöner Götterfunken") - that Beethoven used in the 4th movement of his 9th symphony, and that the European Union adopted as their anthem?
BTW I just published a poem of my own here:
http://www.sgmt.at/Poetry/Poem2.htm
Most of my poetry is in German and decades old, but this one is brand-new.
.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Finding Sparks of God's Light = Joy!
Yes, Heidrun, you are right...and it is also a very core deep thought of metaphysical Judaism, which must have influenced the culture if not the man, possibly unbeknownst to him?
Your poem is lovely! We do have a poetry thread around here somewhere, I suggest you place it there as well, so more people can enjoy it!
Yes, Heidrun, you are right...and it is also a very core deep thought of metaphysical Judaism, which must have influenced the culture if not the man, possibly unbeknownst to him?
Your poem is lovely! We do have a poetry thread around here somewhere, I suggest you place it there as well, so more people can enjoy it!
Yes, Heidrun, you are right...and it is also a very core deep thought of metaphysical Judaism, which must have influenced the culture if not the man, possibly unbeknownst to him?
Your poem is lovely! We do have a poetry thread around here somewhere, I suggest you place it there as well, so more people can enjoy it!
The funny thing about 'funk' in german is that, while it means spark, it's also used for 'broadcast', as in radio/tv broadcast as rundfunk
One of the things us amis cracked up about when we first got to germany in the early '70s was the electronics company 'Telefunken'
Anyway, by the time I was reading goethe and getting in to it enough to look at the lyrics to 'ode', I was really struck by the use of Goetterfunken, which really made sense as both 'sparks' of the divine and a *message*/broadcast.
Zinj
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
San Francisco Bay to Breakers mid May
I just signed up for the annual Bay to Breakers in May.
It is $35 today. Soon it goes up to $44.
It is a run from the foot of the Bay Bridge to the Ocean Beach across the City.
It is a party. Lots of frat and sorority kids with beer flowing freely, lots of costumes. Truly awesome Kenyan runners. Loads of naked people. About 70,000 people
We've been doing it for a number of decades. It is an "Only in San Francisco" kind of event. Now our grandchildren do it with us.
I just signed up for the annual Bay to Breakers in May.
It is $35 today. Soon it goes up to $44.
It is a run from the foot of the Bay Bridge to the Ocean Beach across the City.
It is a party. Lots of frat and sorority kids with beer flowing freely, lots of costumes. Truly awesome Kenyan runners. Loads of naked people. About 70,000 people
We've been doing it for a number of decades. It is an "Only in San Francisco" kind of event. Now our grandchildren do it with us.
lkwdblds
Crusader
Those crafty Germans and their strange language.
I was trying to get some understanding on this and Googled funken in German and it seems to be defined as "to send out", "to give out or emit" as in emiting sparks.
Gotterfunken is a word representing "sparks being emited by God". This is a heavyweight word, put to use in Schiller's Ode to Joy, set to music by Beethoven in his Choral Symphony. The concept of God emiting sparks comes up repeatedly when discusing models of the Universe and how things got started. Vinnaire and the Hindus are prone to substitute the word BRAHMA for God and to define it as infinite undescribable nothingness which contains within it life potential. As I understand it, BRAHMA does a a bit of "Gotterfunken" and independent spiritual beings exist, ready to decide, "I am", and assume a viewpoint.
As Vinnaire so astutely explained, the act of a spark being given off by God, implies a separation from God and the word separation connotates "space" being created. There must be, by definition, space created between two things when one thing separates from the other such as when a spark is emited from something or even from nothinness.
When space is created, I formerly believed it could exist with no time present, but space and time come into existence concurrently because space is established by dimension points rapidly reaching and withdrawing and it must continously be created or it will disappear and the emited object will merge back into God. The action of particles reaching and withdrawing is sufficient to create a small bit of time in the newly created space,
GOTTERFUNKEN MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE
Summary- A model of the Universe can be created based on the German word Gotterfunken, sparks emited by God. We get space, a little time, and potential Beings (sparks of God). The Beings decide "to be", assume a viewpoint from which to view space, and the Universe is off and runing much as described in LRH's factors.
AMAZING CHAIN OF EVENTS:
1. We started discussing a poem by Goethe.
2. Zinj comments on it," Beautiful, sparks of God."
3. Hiedrun remarks on that being the opening of the last movement Beethoven's Choral Symphony.
4. Zinj remarks further on the German words "funken", rundfunk and Telefunken.
5. Lakey looks up "funken" on Google
6. Using Gotterfunken, Lakey sets up a model of the Universe, referencing Vinnaire's Oh!God!! thread on ESMB.
7. Goethe's poem, back in step 1, is a poetic description of the Universe of step 6.
8. Sweetnes and Light acknowledged this post the next day, thereby making it REAL in this 2 terminal Universe.
An innocent look at a beautiful poem, thrown out on ESMB, leads to a nice picture of how the Universe may have begun, illustrated in words by Goethe's poem which started the whole discussion in the first place. I think this is an amazing chain of events.
Lakey
The funny thing about 'funk' in german is that, while it means spark, it's also used for 'broadcast', as in radio/tv broadcast as rundfunk
One of the things us amis cracked up about when we first got to germany in the early '70s was the electronics company 'Telefunken'
Anyway, by the time I was reading goethe and getting in to it enough to look at the lyrics to 'ode', I was really struck by the use of Goetterfunken, which really made sense as both 'sparks' of the divine and a *message*/broadcast.
Zinj
I was trying to get some understanding on this and Googled funken in German and it seems to be defined as "to send out", "to give out or emit" as in emiting sparks.
Gotterfunken is a word representing "sparks being emited by God". This is a heavyweight word, put to use in Schiller's Ode to Joy, set to music by Beethoven in his Choral Symphony. The concept of God emiting sparks comes up repeatedly when discusing models of the Universe and how things got started. Vinnaire and the Hindus are prone to substitute the word BRAHMA for God and to define it as infinite undescribable nothingness which contains within it life potential. As I understand it, BRAHMA does a a bit of "Gotterfunken" and independent spiritual beings exist, ready to decide, "I am", and assume a viewpoint.
As Vinnaire so astutely explained, the act of a spark being given off by God, implies a separation from God and the word separation connotates "space" being created. There must be, by definition, space created between two things when one thing separates from the other such as when a spark is emited from something or even from nothinness.
When space is created, I formerly believed it could exist with no time present, but space and time come into existence concurrently because space is established by dimension points rapidly reaching and withdrawing and it must continously be created or it will disappear and the emited object will merge back into God. The action of particles reaching and withdrawing is sufficient to create a small bit of time in the newly created space,
GOTTERFUNKEN MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE
Summary- A model of the Universe can be created based on the German word Gotterfunken, sparks emited by God. We get space, a little time, and potential Beings (sparks of God). The Beings decide "to be", assume a viewpoint from which to view space, and the Universe is off and runing much as described in LRH's factors.
AMAZING CHAIN OF EVENTS:
1. We started discussing a poem by Goethe.
2. Zinj comments on it," Beautiful, sparks of God."
3. Hiedrun remarks on that being the opening of the last movement Beethoven's Choral Symphony.
4. Zinj remarks further on the German words "funken", rundfunk and Telefunken.
5. Lakey looks up "funken" on Google
6. Using Gotterfunken, Lakey sets up a model of the Universe, referencing Vinnaire's Oh!God!! thread on ESMB.
7. Goethe's poem, back in step 1, is a poetic description of the Universe of step 6.
8. Sweetnes and Light acknowledged this post the next day, thereby making it REAL in this 2 terminal Universe.
An innocent look at a beautiful poem, thrown out on ESMB, leads to a nice picture of how the Universe may have begun, illustrated in words by Goethe's poem which started the whole discussion in the first place. I think this is an amazing chain of events.
Lakey
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RogerB
Crusader
Two Questions
Two questions:
1) do you actually finish it?
2) how long does it take you?
The Bay to Breakers is famous even in New York City . . . . particularly among the West Village set. If memory serves, they send a contingent of fairies to do their parade among the rest of the flamboyant types
The whole thing is a wonderful mix of serious marathon and a fun send-up . . . only to be matched by two similar events a) the Halloween Parade in NYC and b) the Henley-on-Todd Boat Regatta (done in a dry creek bed in Alice Springs, Oz) and the Tennant Creek Beer Can Regatta . . . also held in the middle of an Ozzie dry nowhere!
Rog
Two questions:
1) do you actually finish it?
2) how long does it take you?
The Bay to Breakers is famous even in New York City . . . . particularly among the West Village set. If memory serves, they send a contingent of fairies to do their parade among the rest of the flamboyant types
The whole thing is a wonderful mix of serious marathon and a fun send-up . . . only to be matched by two similar events a) the Halloween Parade in NYC and b) the Henley-on-Todd Boat Regatta (done in a dry creek bed in Alice Springs, Oz) and the Tennant Creek Beer Can Regatta . . . also held in the middle of an Ozzie dry nowhere!
Rog
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Two questions:
1) do you actually finish it?
2) how long does it take you?
The Bay to Breakers is famous even in New York City . . . . particularly among the West Village set. If memory serves, they send a contingent of fairies to do their parade among the rest of the flamboyant types
The whole thing is a wonderful mix of serious marathon and a fun send-up . . . only to be matched by two similar events a) the Halloween Parade in NYC and b) the Henley-on-Todd Boat Regatta (done in a dry creek bed in Alice Springs, Oz) and the Tennant Creek Beer Can Regatta . . . also held in the middle of an Ozzie dry nowhere!
Rog
I'm surprised, and pleased that you know of it.
I started doing it in 1984. In 1985, I was joined by our daughter, who you know. Somewhere along the line, we pulled others (mate, children, grandchildren) in. Our four legged son, Q has done it every year of his life (he is five).We all finish it.
Generally speaking, even in heavy rain, the Kenyans and the real runners take off from their starting positions and are done with the race within a half hour. It takes more than an hour for everyone to start the race. We usually get to the starting line after the race has been won. The first two miles are clogged with runners and walkers. While doing the pre race wait, and for the first mile many of us toss small taco size tortillas (which come from the store in packs of 100) into the air and back and forth.
If it is raining, garbage bags are the main fashion choice in rain gear.
The race starts at 8 officially. By 8:30 , we usually cross the starting line.
Two years ago, we walked from our hotel, with the grandchildren to the Hayes St. hill, which is at about the 2 mile point. it is your typical San Francisco hill. It goes straight up. they don't have hills like that in Ohio (for instance). After all the years of being good sports and running the whole thing, we stood on the sidewalk and watched the Kenyans run up the hill. It was beautiful! Like watching a pack of jaguars, with their slim muscular beauty in the wild. We'll do that again.
As for times, it is 7.5 miles. I used to do it averaging about 12 minute miles. We always finish. After the finish, there is another mile or two to go to get to Footstock, where everyone congregates for music, food, t shirts, etc. We tend to run and walk with the idea being - make it fun for the younger set. The current youngest of us is now 9, and can run 5 miles in the hills with no tiredness. This year, we should make pretty good time not stopping. Even with young grandchildren , and years ago, children, we are done by 11 or 11:30.
San Francisco is a walking town. So even if we cheated on the race, we get miles of walking in, jogging etc. Taking a handful of kids racing a cable car across the town is fun on its own merits. Next to London, San Francisco is my favorite city on Earth. Compared to London, it is much smaller in distance, but equally filled with wonderful little districts -- Chinatown, the Castro (the gay community - very arty), Fisherman's Wharf, the Italian and bohemian section, beautiful vistas, enchanting antique shops, great old department stores, - The City is filled with sights, sounds, smells - **like French bread** or the smell of burning pine brakes on the cable car lines** that is like no other place on Earth.
It's a family thing. We stay the night before at the Sir Francis Drake, which is on a cable car line and close to Union Square. The Drake has windows, which open, so you can hear the cable cars from your room. It is really charming. Dogs are welcome. It makes for a convenient headquarters to see the City, run the race, and be close to the center of shopping, touristing, and playing.
Several years ago, when it was really pouring rain, I ran alone. I ended up finishing the race, and looking at the tens of thousands of people waiting for buses in drenching cold rain with no roofs over our heads, I jogged back to the start, rather than wait for a bus.
The rain is a possibility this year. We are having an El Nin˜o winter. Most years the temps are acceptably in the 60s. (Does anyone know how to make a tilde appear over the "n" on the keyboard?)
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RogerB
Crusader
Yup!
I love the fancy dress and dance routines of some of the characters as they do the "race" . . . one year they had a bunch of guys . . . err, umm gays? . . . .rigged out in bowlers and London Civil Servant type suits carrying the typical Brit briefcase and brolly . . . and the bastards did a dance routine the whole way!
On the tilde . . . the way to pull it of, and you can't do it directly into this app, is to do it in a word doc via "insert", "symbol" . . . select the magic symbol you want (any of those foreign language do-dads) then copy and past into your ESMB post . . . like this: Ñ ö ē ľ ñ èťç
R
I love the fancy dress and dance routines of some of the characters as they do the "race" . . . one year they had a bunch of guys . . . err, umm gays? . . . .rigged out in bowlers and London Civil Servant type suits carrying the typical Brit briefcase and brolly . . . and the bastards did a dance routine the whole way!
On the tilde . . . the way to pull it of, and you can't do it directly into this app, is to do it in a word doc via "insert", "symbol" . . . select the magic symbol you want (any of those foreign language do-dads) then copy and past into your ESMB post . . . like this: Ñ ö ē ľ ñ èťç
R
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Thank you for the tilde advice.I love the fancy dress and dance routines of some of the characters as they do the "race" . . . one year they had a bunch of guys . . . err, umm gays? . . . .rigged out in bowlers and London Civil Servant type suits carrying the typical Brit briefcase and brolly . . . and the bastards did a dance routine the whole way!
On the tilde . . . the way to pull it of, and you can't do it directly into this app, is to do it in a word doc via "insert", "symbol" . . . select the magic symbol you want (any of those foreign language do-dads) then copy and past into your ESMB post . . . like this: Ñ ö ē ľ ñ èťç
R
Then of course, in the Bay 2 Breakers, there are the salmon. They run every year. It is a thirteen person group running backwards from the end of the course to the starting line.
http://sf.cacophony.org/salmon/
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
For the Mac Attack: Hold down option key, type "n" then type "n" again.
ñ or Ñ
Same for é only type "e."
You can also use the character pallet: $ § ♥ and so on.
You can find an extended ASCII table at:
http://www.ascii-code.com/
On a PC in windows, use the alt key and the keypad together (not the upper row numbers) started by a zero.
for example ALT + 0209 = Ñ
:Þ
Zinj
http://www.ascii-code.com/
On a PC in windows, use the alt key and the keypad together (not the upper row numbers) started by a zero.
for example ALT + 0209 = Ñ
:Þ
Zinj
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Hey, I got left out of this!!!
Lakey, some of your Jewish ancestors looked at this long and hard before you! Good thinking, I liked very much what you had to say, and how you tied in Vinnie thoughts for us! Good Job!!!Hey, I got left out of this!!!
well, the ship hasn't left the dock yet.
Just to throw in some scenery; the 'connections' go even further. Goethe doesn't say that Joy = schoene Goetterfunken, he says 'joy/schoene Goetterfunken. If the funken/sparks are a broadcast of God, then the *message* is joy. Because as Marshal McLuhan said; 'the medium is the message'.
God's broadcast *is* joy, and, that *is* the message
Zinj
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
More Joy, More Light! Beautiful Sparks!!!
I LOVE IT!!!
Thanks, Zinji! BTW, my favorite classical piece of all time!!!
I LOVE IT!!!
Thanks, Zinji! BTW, my favorite classical piece of all time!!!
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