The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

Thanks for your support FoTi!

Lakey, I tend to see this the same way you do.

Thanks FoTi! You do not really have a horse in this race, so your opiniion is unbiased and means a lot to me. I'll take all the support I can get on this topic.

I have another major comment to make about this entire topic.
ESOTERIC AND PHILOSOPHIC COMMENTS ABOUT A TOPIC versus THE POTENTIAL DEAD AGENTING BEING CARRIED OUT AGAINST A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL

I am possibly undergoing a systematic attack against me which has the goal of Dead Agenting my credibility. At the same time and closely connected to this, there is a philosophical discussiion going on as to whether one can have a tie in to L Ron Hubbard the individual since he is now deceased or if it is just one's considerations about what LRH wrote and said that is the actual tie in.

I am reminded about something H. Ross Perot once said when he was on the Board of Directors of General Motors. Regarding GM, Perot stated that if a potentially deadly snake was slithering on the floor inside the GM Board room, the Board would order a study done about deadly snakes, what their habits, are, what dangers they posed to GM and its employees and what it would take to kill it one the study turned out negative. Perot stated that when he was the CEO of Electronic Data Systems, if a potentially deadly snake was found in their boardroom someone on the board would immediately and quickly kill the snake - no questions asked!

I believe there is a parallel here. Sure let the debate go forward on the esoteric topic under consideration but in the meantime, I am going to follow, what I believe Face (our resident version of Perot) would do. First, I am going to find out if this snake is deadly or if I am wrong about that. If I am wrong, I will join in with the esoteric debate or watch it from the sidelines but if I ascertain that the snake is deadly, I am going to HANDLE THE G.D. SNAKE!! I am not just doing this because I am the prey of the potentially deadly snake, I would do it even if someone else was its prey (figuratively speaking).

I SAY TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS FIRST AND THEN HAVE THE DISCUSSION ON IT! FIRST THINGS FIRST.
Lakey

 

[Leon]

So, how are Objective Processes correctly run and how did you learn about this?

With LOTS of free and easy two-way communication and getting the preclear to fully participate and contribute to the session. Exactly as described in a taped lecture of about Nov or Dec 1954 called The Importance of two-way Communication in Op Pro by Dup.

A mangled and useless version of this lecture was given in the book Phoenix Lectures. The tape itself - as far as I have seen - was never part of any course that trained one on how to run Objectives.

 

[Dulloldfart]

The trouble here is that the CofS insists on a literal interpretation and application of commands. The exact patter and nothing else. That in itself is a major stupidity. Any auditor who is worth anything would not fall into this trap.

The more fundamental datum is that the W/H got restimmed and the pc needs to spot the exact point it happened.

Yeah, but the patter is wrong in the first place. You want the pc to spot times it was missed and itsa a bit about them as needed. So what would be a good command to get a pc to spot times a W/H was missed? Ummmm . . . tricky . . . let's call a conference of Class XIIs and have a big meeting about it . . . maybe, um, "Spot a time the W/H was missed" and "tell me about it." Duh.

Paul

 

[thetanic]

If we leave out the upper levels and focus on the grades, which I have the most experisnce of, then I'd venture that, yes, it does in my experience produce the results h stated. And often even more.

For example he says that Rising Scale will change the endocrine balance in a guy - I have found this to be true on those preclears who had endocrine problems. Well I say that - I'm not really one to diagnose such problems medically but I have seen ulcers disappear and digestion improve markedly. Vision too.

So... I'll come out of the closet a bit more here -- CarmeloOrchards has been my auditor for the last several months, fixing up odd bits here and there, and then we redid my grades.

There's a few things I've noticed:

1) Less pain overall, thus less pain meds
2) We've had to cut down the thyroid meds

Eight months ago, I underwent a major medication change that took at least a couple months to really settle down, but it may still be producing ongoing improvements in my health. So that may be part of both.

Also, I started a different exercise program two months ago, and that's definitely having ongoing effects.

However, some of that improvement is, no doubt, the auditing, because neither of the other two changes produced that difference before the auditing.

 

[Leon]

The solution is to stop looking for a magic command to do the auditing for you and start paying attention to the preclear in front of you.

 

[Leon]

Certainly the most valuable training program I ever did in Scio was done after I left the CofS sometime in 1984 or thereabouts. An auditor friend and I took all the red volumes, all the books and all of the hundreds of tapes we had and researched the development of every seperate aspect of Scio tech from start to finish. So we'd take ARC and ARCBreaks for example and compile a list of every reference to it and evrything about it and study that in sequence, applying every suggested method he gave for handling it on preclears and then coming to our own conclusions on the matter. The same with every other aspect of the tech. Withholds, ServFacs, Objectives, Rising Scale, Dianetics, you name it. We did the lot.

It totally changed our outlook on the whole subject and the quality of the auditing we did just soared. Hubbard did his work a hell of a lot better than he is given credit for.

 

[lkwdblds]

Leon, you have a nice chain of posts with this!

Certainly the most valuable training program I ever did in Scio was done after I left the CofS sometime in 1984 or thereabouts. An auditor friend and I took all the red volumes, all the books and all of the hundreds of tapes we had and researched the development of every seperate aspect of Scio tech from start to finish. So we'd take ARC and ARCBreaks for example and compile a list of every reference to it and evrything about it and study that in sequence, applying every suggested method he gave for handling it on preclears and then coming to our own conclusions on the matter. The same with every other aspect of the tech. Withholds, ServFacs, Objectives, Rising Scale, Dianetics, you name it. We did the lot.

It totally changed our outlook on the whole subject and the quality of the auditing we did just soared. Hubbard did his work a hell of a lot better than he is given credit for.

Well done Leon! You, Paul and Thetanic have a good chain going. I like to read these type of posts. You and Paul are really well versed in this type of discussion, I just sit on the sidelines and learn. This is one topic where I can't offer insights but just need to get more genned in. Please keep up the dialogue.
Lakey

 

[Ted]

Give Me That Hand...

With LOTS of free and easy two-way communication and getting the preclear to fully participate and contribute to the session. Exactly as described in a taped lecture of about Nov or Dec 1954 called The Importance of two-way Communication in Op Pro by Dup.

A mangled and useless version of this lecture was given in the book Phoenix Lectures. The tape itself - as far as I have seen - was never part of any course that trained one on how to run Objectives.

I would agree with this.

There are two ways to run objective processes: One way is to run the commands as if they are a ritual more important than the pc and auditor line of communication. The other way is to use the commands as a structure around which communication might be promoted and allowed to occur. There was an HCOB on the old HQS Course that described the expectations of this auditing style exactly and succinctly. I believe is is called CCH Auditing Attitude.

 

[Leon]

Titanic Thetan - that is good news! I'm so glad that guys are getting audiiting and getting good results from it. Superb!

 

[Roland ami]

Even in that case, I never have heard that women were regarded on the same level as dogs in Roman Civilization. I know that they had nowhere near the status of men and that there was no women's rights movement at any time during the Roman Empire's rule but still, were women regarded on a level similar to that of dogs? I am just asking.

In those days, women - and children - were regarded as property. So were slaves and dogs, but I didn't mean that the Romans regarded women actually as dogs, just that their rights were somewhat similar.

The other point was that it was really Greek civilization that was significant in those days, rather than Roman. Greeks were the civilized people, the Romans were the soldiers and whatnot, not *civilized* like the Greeks.

This is of course totally off-topic for this list, but what the hell!
Roland

 

[Roland ami]

Certainly the most valuable training program I ever did in Scio was done after I left the CofS sometime in 1984 or thereabouts. An auditor friend and I took all the red volumes, all the books and all of the hundreds of tapes we had and researched the development of every seperate aspect of Scio tech from start to finish. So we'd take ARC and ARCBreaks for example and compile a list of every reference to it and evrything about it and study that in sequence, applying every suggested method he gave for handling it on preclears and then coming to our own conclusions on the matter. The same with every other aspect of the tech. Withholds, ServFacs, Objectives, Rising Scale, Dianetics, you name it. We did the lot.

It totally changed our outlook on the whole subject and the quality of the auditing we did just soared. Hubbard did his work a hell of a lot better than he is given credit for.

A very fine thing to do. I have to say that the GAOT packs - which did include every possible LRH reference - were a major advance over the older course materials. If only they hadn't included all those robotism requirements too!

Roland

 

[FoTi]

This was one of my favorite songs back about the time I started in Scientology.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n2aYUaxPCY&feature=related

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Even in that case, I never have heard that women were regarded on the same level as dogs in Roman Civilization. I know that they had nowhere near the status of men and that there was no women's rights movement at any time during the Roman Empire's rule but still, were women regarded on a level similar to that of dogs? I am just asking.

In those days, women - and children - were regarded as property. So were slaves and dogs, but I didn't mean that the Romans regarded women actually as dogs, just that their rights were somewhat similar.

The other point was that it was really Greek civilization that was significant in those days, rather than Roman. Greeks were the civilized people, the Romans were the soldiers and whatnot, not *civilized* like the Greeks.

This is of course totally off-topic for this list, but what the hell!
Roland

no topic is off topic for this list.

bad manners aren't accepted, but somehow, the people ho choose post on this thread don't have that quality.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

This was one of my favorite songs back about the time I started in Scientology.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n2aYUaxPCY&feature=related

this is what was playing at my high school, and then all across the country and in Scientology centers and orgs too 1968

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MHsuxjdWgQ

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I agree with that one. But then take a look at HCOB RUDIMENTS, DEFINITIONS AND PATTER, well-known to any classed auditor who did any training after 1978. It was probably written by someone other than Hubbard, but considering its date and prominence that is no excuse. The patter for picking up misses is "Who missed it?" and then "What did (they) do to make you wonder whether or not he/she knew?"

That is just bullshit as a question, as anyone who has had MWHs pulled in session knows. Sometimes it works, but sometimes one just looks blank and says "he didn't do anything really" or else lies and says "he looked at me" (or something) while secretly thinking, "that wasn't it but I gotta say something."

As a rough handling it's not too bad, but it misses the point. The point is that a missed withhold occurs at the moment a withhold is restimulated, whether you are wondering about the other person or not. You can be walking down the street and see a policeman and go "uh-oh." The policeman didn't do anything to make you wonder whether or not he knew. You know damn well he doesn't know anything about you smoking a joint at home 30 minutes ago, but all the same the sight of him restimulated (missed) the withhold.

You can be looking at a chair and it restimulates a withhold. The chair genuinely missed the withhold in the terms the question is couched, but then asking the question, "What did the chair do to make you wonder whether or not it knew?" is clearly silly. So what happens is the pc ignores reporting that miss as a miss, as he thinks it isn't one. But it is. Same for the cat, or God, or the TV or whatever in the pc's view triggered the restim. It leaves the pc with BPC, and he isn't going to as-is it because he isn't going to find the right reason, unless he has a very sharp auditor (or is using PaulsRobot ).

Paul

Absolutely, which is why none of the tech can be "taken on faith". It's one thing to "accept for testing" a proposition or process about which you may be dubious, but accepting all propositions as "true until proven otherwise" is extremely reckless. Nor does a positive result necessarily indicate the tested hypothesis, procedure, or assumption is correct in its original statement. An obvious case in point are the "upper levels". Auditing the related material can produce beneficial results, but the idea that Hubbard's "theory" is accurate is ludicrous.


Mark A. Baker

 

[lkwdblds]

Good on the women answer but the Greeks?

Even in that case, I never have heard that women were regarded on the same level as dogs in Roman Civilization. I know that they had nowhere near the status of men and that there was no women's rights movement at any time during the Roman Empire's rule but still, were women regarded on a level similar to that of dogs? I am just asking.

In those days, women - and children - were regarded as property. So were slaves and dogs, but I didn't mean that the Romans regarded women actually as dogs, just that their rights were somewhat similar.

The other point was that it was really Greek civilization that was significant in those days, rather than Roman. Greeks were the civilized people, the Romans were the soldiers and whatnot, not *civilized* like the Greeks.

This is of course totally off-topic for this list, but what the hell!
Roland

Roland, fine answer on the women's question. I am totally satisfied. On the Greek civilization, they were in their Golden Age from about 300 to 200 B.C.. The Roman Civilization conquered them and annexed them to be part of the Roman Empire. It wasn't until about 230 years later that Jesus was wandering around Judea, also part of the Roman Empire doing his preaching. Two hundred and thirty years is the approximate length of time from when the U.S.A. gained its independence until now. When Jesus was alive Greece did not exist as a separate Civilization, it had been absorbed into the Roman Empire. Much of the Greek culture was adopted along with Greek lands and their citizens but what Jesus experienced in his traveling about Judea was Roman Civilization. Greece was now part of Rome and besides that, people often lived only within a 10 or 20 mile radius their entire lives and Jesus had no real method to get to Greece. I don't know the distance but it has to be at least 500 miles from Judea to Greece, probably closer to 1,000 miles Jesus was never in the Roman Army or Navy and his family was of very modest income level so there was no way he could get to Greece but even if he had made it there, he would have found mainly Roman culture with perhaps lots of Greek accents. It would be similar to California which once belonged to Spain and then for a short time to Mexico. The culture here, 165 years after we took California over is totally United States Culture but there are very strong Spanish and Mexican accents, the architecture, the names of places, a strong presenece of Mexican foods and Mexican music and a lot of Spanish spoken. I believe that in Jesus's time, Greece would be the same, a total Roman culture with tremendous greek overtones. The Great Golden Age of Greece was long gone.

As far as being off topic, pretty much any worthwhile topic is taken up here. Roger had already introduced Jesus and your remarks concerned Jesus so I believe your topic is quite appropriate for our discussion.
Lakey

 

[FoTi]

this is what was playing at my high school, and then all across the country and in Scientology centers and orgs too 1968

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MHsuxjdWgQ

I don't remember that song.

This is the one I remember from 1968

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw40NMa_0RM&feature=related

 

[Infinite]

Very nice post again Blip! I have heard a taped lecture by Hubbard from the early to mid 50's where Hubbard mentions a study done by the University of Chicago. He dismisses them on several counts and at the time I heard the tape, I thought his criticisms had some merit.

He stated that the practitioners at U. of Chicago essentially just gave the processes to their subjects but they did not make use of the auditor's code and the entire bag of tools which a good auditor needs to get good results: a good comm cycle, real sincere caring about the cases of the people being tested, the intention to get the pc through, the tone scale and so forth. Also I believe he also stated they did not properly assess so as to find out what needed to be run. I do not think e-meters were used because they were just testing Book 1 auditing. I am pretty sure the tests were done around 1952 or 1953 before the TR drills were developed
Lakey

I have no doubt that had e-meters and TR drills been used the results would have been entirely different. One need only look at the power these tools have in psychological manipulation so as to force compliance, as detailed in Robert Devine's statement to Court linked to in this and other threads recently.

Hubbard's work is peppered with disparaging comments about and attacks on academics and higher education in general so, although interested, I'm not surprised by your comment. Do you have any further details on the studies at Chicago? I can't seem to get my Google-fu to come up with anything specific.

As an aside, there is an interesting link between Hubbard and the University of Chicago. A Dr Karl Lashley of the university was the first American academic to use the term "engram" in his 1932 book Studies In The Dynamics of Behaviour. (The first person to coin the term was the German Richard Semon). Around this time, there were also a number of research projects at the university into the use of galvanic skin response (GSR) - the equipment for which was subsequently re-packed as the e-meter. About the only contribution Hubbard made in this area of research was his discovery that engrams are actually Body Thetans.

 

[Infinite]

There's a few things I've noticed:

1) Less pain overall, thus less pain meds
2) We've had to cut down the thyroid meds

Eight months ago, I underwent a major medication change that took at least a couple months to really settle down, but it may still be producing ongoing improvements in my health. So that may be part of both.

For example he says that Rising Scale will change the endocrine balance in a guy - I have found this to be true on those preclears who had endocrine problems. Well I say that - I'm not really one to diagnose such problems medically but I have seen ulcers disappear and digestion improve markedly. Vision too.

As a general comment, I will just point out that making unsubstantiated medical claims is border-line illegal. Here's an interesting study reported by the New Zealand Medical Journal about such behaviour and which has many parallels with Scientology.

http://www.dcscience.net/Ernst-Gilbey-Chiropractic-claims-NZMJ.pdf

 

[Leon]

Body Thetans were known before this. There was a very little known group of paople who migrated to South Africa from England - one was called Findlay, another was a lady Helen Quartermain. The had a group which dealt with these entities that surround the body and they had a practice to which people went for their - I suppose Clearing is what we'd call it.

Another person who was part of this was John Whiteman, for a long time professor of mathematics at The university of Cape Town. I spent a lovely afternoon with him once talking about these things, though he was more interested in telling me about his translations of Buddhist texts. Anyway, he as a child was aware of these entities and wrote a book on it. I had the book though I forget its name now. It was all long ago.

I don't think they even knew of LRH, nor he of thm. It was a completely independent group. Some guys from the Org once went to Quatermain for therapy in the late '70s and got booted straight into ethics afterwards.