The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Hatshepsut]

Irrelevant sidebar:

"Help" was the first process run on me in scientology. I'd come in to try auditing. Was immediately put on a comm course and then allowed to get "life repair". The processes run were the standard tech equivalent of the above.



HUGE MAJOR VGIs & COMPLETE "BLOW OUT".

I'd been regged for 2 intensives. It took about 3/5 of one.


Conclusion: scientology does work although effects vary based on circumstances & practitioners.


Mark A. Baker

My Life Repair in 1975 had other things in it too. Also caused major change. One intensive. I had gone 'sad effect' with everything in my space locked into this mood level.. The repair blew apart the sticky common emotion ....a real case cracker and cluster buster on a beginning pc.

 

[Enthetan]

Ah, yes. Safe space is a primary requisite for good, effective auditing. This is why no auditing is occurring at CoS. The space is not safe and has not been safe for a long time. If the pc/client cannot say, "This is how I feel," without fear of repercussion, the session is in trouble.

^^^^ This!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Worth 2 cents metaphysically here in California!

When a guy is drowning in a pool of S-H-one-T then there are two things that can be done. Well, three if you believe what some people on this board claim.

You can sholvel the crap out of the pool until the guy becomes visible and able to raise his head above it. This correlates to negative gain auditing.

You can grab the guy by the scruff of his neck and pull him out of the pool. This correlate4s to positive gain auditing.

You can assert that the pool of S-H-one-T is all Hubbard's delusion that you have been hypnotised into believing.

Contrary to what Roger says Scio does include a lot of positive gain auditing, especcially on the Lower Grades. Though admitttedly, I too find far to much emphasis on negative gains on the upper levels. Objectives too are for positive gain.

Both types of gain are valuable when dealing with a case. The Kn thing I don't much ageree with is always focussing only on what the guy says he wants handled. The bank is a self-protective mechanism and will likely lead such a person into never handling his case fully. Only superficailly on a feel-good basis.

That's 2 NZ cents. What's the exchange rate these days?

Well Leon, I clearly see which camp I am in at present...stand at their perceived edge of the pool and throw them a lifeline, and haul them out to a different viewpoint...then if they wish to jump back into the pool, go your own way...allow them to "enjoy" the viewpoint they have chosen for themself...and offer your help and assistance to someone else who "wants out" of their own pool.

Positive gain auditing (counselling) , but with great respect for each individual's rights of self determinism...

Some counsellors are described as "non-directive", others as "directive"...Both modalities have their uses, depending on where the pc is coming from and their needs of the moment.

I have great respect for everyone here who wants to help others, no matter what terms or methods they use to do so. It's a BIG tent!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Welcome, "Grammy"

Big welcome to Programmer Guy from my old stomping grounds...glad to have you join us here!

 

[FoTi]

FoTi, as to your parents routing into the Org to do services for selfish reasons, maybe I was reading too much into her actions. Most parents of that generation, the generation which lived through the Great Depression and fought in World War II were skeptical of Scientology. My parents were very skeptical of it as were the parents of every parent I ever met. In my life, the only parents who were pro Scientology were those who were already in it or who were born into it. Every single set of parents of a young person who expressed an interest in Scientology or took a class there was very skeptical and suspicious of it. My parents were that way, the Todhunter's parents were that way, Bev Carter's parents were that way, my FSM Harry's mom was that way, Mike Goldstein's parents were that way, expecially his Mom. I probably met thirty or so sets of parents from 1970 on and ALL of them were leery with their child being in Scientology and very suspicious of it.

I transfered this notion I had to your parents and they were initially leery of you getting involved and wanted you very much to complete your college program before you got too deeply involved with Scientology. Knowing they were suspicious of it, I assumed they came on lines at least partly in an effort to smooth the waters in their relationship with you. Of course, doctors are big opinion leaders for the parents of that generation and your Scientology Doctor telling them that Scientology auditing could handle her cancer weighed heavily in them routing into ASHO. You know best why they routed in, if it was for selfish reasons and not at least partly to smooth the waters with you, then I stand corrected.

Your comments about what might have been had you been able to take services at something similar to today's Freezone are very inciteful. What you are saying is that there is enough workability in Scientology tech that when delivered in a caring and non stat driven environment, the three lives of yourself and your parents would have been made better, much better than the way the things ended up for you receiving your services at CCLA and ASHO. This is an astute observation which you have made. Please take some solace in that young people of today now have an opportunity, 35 years later, to receive some real gains in the Freezone without having their lives destroyed and their family disconnected from. Telling your story on ESMB goes a long way towards ensuring that future young people will not fall into the same trap that you did. Your suffering was not in vain, your powerful story will save others from having their lives destroyed.

Just think, FoTi, if only one person is saved from experiencing what you experienced in C of S, then your terrible ordeal was not in vain. It takes a lot of strength and courage to open up and tell a story such as yours and expose all your dirty laundry to the public. I, for one, want to commend you for being so brave and having the needed confront to share your story with others.
Lakey

There were no waters to smooth at that time, Lakey. After my intro session at CCLA, my relationship with my mother was better. She didn't come in to smooth any waters. She was very sick. I had given her some touch assists in the hospital and at home and she had responded very well to them. After the SO doctor came to their house and spoke with them, she came in thinking she might get better....until the disconnection at ASHO happened.....that's when the waters became quite stormy and some smoothing would have been good then, but there wasn't any.

I also wanted to say this about my mom. She was very bright and clever. She wasn't social, but occassionally there would be get togethers of women for an occassional baby shower or wedding shower and the gals would play games. My mom always won. Eventually they quit playing with her because she could outfox them. That tickled her that she could win out and be better than the rest of them.

She was an excellent housekeeper and bookkeeper. She was very efficient. She made the best fried chicken I ever ate, bar none. She made wonderful bread pudding, apple pies, pumpkin pies and chocolate cake to die for. I think she would have been a lot of fun if she could have ever got out of the muck she was in.

I think the field auditing from someone who was blown helped her some. Before she died she told me that she thought she and my dad had been married in a past life. She also told me that she wasn't going to pick up a body right away - she said she was just going to hang around for a while and watch over the family because there was a court case pending for the family business that she thought she needed to keep an eye on. When it came time for her to go , she showed absolutely no fear of dying. I have no idea what she got auditing on, but I don't think she would not have said those things without having received auditing.

Thanks for letting me know that parents from their generation were skeptical and it wasn't just my parents. That gives me a little different perspective on their attitude toward Scientology, because I thought I was about the only one having that kind of trouble with my parents back then. I did not hear other people talking about the kind of trouble I was having with my parents.

That would be good if my story would save someone from getting involved in the CoS.

It was just the path I took in life and I was not very good at choosing the best paths in life.

I just hope that the good parts of the tech survive and are passed on through generations. When I look at the crowd at the Freezone or critics conventions or get togethers, I see a lot of grey and white heads so it looks like there will be quite a few people leaving in the not too distant future and I hope there will be some trained people coming up behind them to take their place to keep the ball rolling. I think it would be good if there were a lot of field auditors all over the world, using tech that really works without any of the BS.

I just want to let you know when you come back at me with "What you are saying is that....." - this bothers me. I feel like you are trying to interpret what I am saying and sort of repeating it back to me like a psychologist or a salesman would do and it sort of doesn't come back at me the way I said it. I've noticed this a couple of times in your reponse to my posts and it makes me feel like you're trying to tell me what I'm saying, kind of like you're sort of trying to talk or speak for me or tell me what my own words mean by rewording it or rephrasing it when I've already said it. I don't really know how to express what I'm trying to say here....it just makes me uncomfortable. I wish I could be more specific.

 

[FoTi]

Lakey, thank you for your contribution to my statement.

My point about the house of cards is further supported by what you write. You have simply, and in accord with scientology philosophy, added some cards to the stack. BTW, these cards of which I write are not from the same deck. Many different decks are involved.

There is a timetrack model of case, and thus a timetrack style of processing. There is a no-timetrack model and a different style of processing for that.

I am favoring a no-timetrack for myself although there are times when the timetrack model serves very well. The downside of the timetrack model is that it always, by inherent design, places the client at effect. In a particular section of the model, the client can be perceived as cause, yet the overarching container is one of effect.

I initially deleted my post because I felt it would fly into the face of fixed ideas or pet theories. I did not want to write a book to explain myself. After reading Hats lengthy post I just wanted to say that marketing something and calling it Truth does not make it Truth. That one "truth" gives birth to other "truths" all of which may or may not be ultimately True. And sometimes when a lot of auditing has been done on something to no resolution that, maybe, there are incorrect assumptions and untruths in the procedures being used.

My perception of Hats is that she is a pretty sharp cookie. We have planned to get together some time. I expect that a chat over coffee or tea should prove to be mutually enjoyable and philosophically rewarding.

Thanks for this post Ted. I like what you said here.

I'm glad you and Hat are going to hook up.....it's nice to have a friend in the hood.

 

[Enthetan]

Those who live by "Murphy's law" usually finds it

Murphy's Law is grossly misunderstood. It is not a statement of pessimism. It is an instruction by an engineer to engineers.

One statement of it is "If there's more than one way to do a job, and one of those ways will result in disaster, then somebody will do it that way". Another is "If a part can be installed incorrectly, someone will install it that way".

The point of the adage to engineers, is to minimize the number of opportunities for human error. A design which allows a critical part to be installed backwards is a bad design. Things need to be designed so that parts CANNOT be inserted the wrong way. Electrical devices should be designed so that a low-voltage socket CANNOT be accidentally plugged into a high-voltage receptacle. An access panel to high-voltage equipment should be designed so that it CANNOT be opened while the plug is still connected to live power. Etc.

 

[Ted]

Murphy's Law is grossly misunderstood. It is not a statement of pessimism. It is an instruction by an engineer to engineers.

One statement of it is "If there's more than one way to do a job, and one of those ways will result in disaster, then somebody will do it that way". Another is "If a part can be installed incorrectly, someone will install it that way".

The point of the adage to engineers, is to minimize the number of opportunities for human error. A design which allows a critical part to be installed backwards is a bad design. Things need to be designed so that parts CANNOT be inserted the wrong way. Electrical devices should be designed so that a low-voltage socket CANNOT be accidentally plugged into a high-voltage receptacle. An access panel to high-voltage equipment should be designed so that it CANNOT be opened while the plug is still connected to live power. Etc.

Ted Murphey's Law of Internet Posting: If a post is written in such a way that it can be interpreted from more than one angle, there will be readers who take it the wrong way then require clarification. It is best to clarify yourself before hitting the "send" key. If no clarification is forthcoming, delete and do not send.

 

[RogerB]

That's the one thing where Kn and I somewhat part company.

Sometimes someone can be so buried under negatives that it is necessary to unburden them - at least for a bit. Indeed there can be a lot of negatives to unburden before someone looks around and realises that there is perhaps a little more than just negative stripping.

Agreed Nick. You are correct. I was speaking in a more general sense, not doing an explicit tech write-up.

Indeed, one of the key first actions Kn addresses on the case are the negatives that are in the way of being able to address or focus on one's positives. We too have it as a cardinal rule that you must handle the clients ARCXs and Problems before you can address "the case."

Indeed, there is a list of 12 Vital Fundamentals that must be addressed to be sure you and your positive powers are not being impeded by negatives. (things like areas of fear, by-passed or messed up ascension experiences, ARCXs, PTPs or problems of long duration, chronic restim of earlier incidents, being chronically negatively processed by someone [someone constantly putting you down, etc.])

But, then there comes a time when the true you and the positves are to be addressed, expanded, upgraded, reconceptualized, empowered etc.

It has taken me the better part of a lifetime!

Yes, well, this might be a symptom of what I feel is an inherent error in the Scn paradigm . . . the incessant hunt for what is negative/wrong to fix.

I too still have to address negatives and eliminate such . . . . but the big difference is in the perspective from which it is done.

I no longer operate from the perspective that I've got to find negatives to eliminate in order to get better and "handle" my scene . . . as was the case when operating with the Scn paradigm. Nowadays, I get on with life empowering and enhancing my positives, powers and abilities and only address such negatives that get incidentally triggered or accessed as I expand my positives, powers and abilities . . . and believe me, there's tons of it to deal with . . . but it's in the context of and based on cleaning up and empowering my positives.

Scn did not and does not do enough address to one's powers and abilities, virtues and positives aspects of existence . . . interestingly, the positive attributes of a Being are not even listed in Scn as a part of its tech! It's rather like the medical profession . . . they are big on treatment of ills, but they have not developed the tech of what is an optimum human condition nor optimum nutritional scenario: it's all based on intervention to to handle/prevent ills.

Indeed, Kn communicates (or at least its PR, sales stuff does) so much on the positive that for a long time I found it to be quite a turn off and did not and would not have made any sort of reach for it in the first place.

That is understandable And it certainly would not have been appealing to folks who felt they had something they wanted handled if all they saw it addressed was what was "right" with them! The wants handled has to be addressed first.

So there is a place for running negatives.

Nick

We are in accord on that, mate. The negatives that are in the way of your positives must be addressed . . . just that Scn has forgotten the positives . . . basically the entire bridge after clear (and even getting clear) is a focus on getting rid of the negative.

It even assumes that some positives (spiritual teammates) are negatives. That is how fixed on "the negative" it is.

There is major, major benefit to be had from address to the positive . . . in fact, it is the best way to stir up those pesky negatives that truly need be addressed and removed!

It's just that we have a degree of difference of emphasis and orientation of address . . . plus one or two differences in what is the validity of certain tech actions

Rog

 

[Hatshepsut]

Ted

Just roll back everything you know about a GPM. I do that and find that the perception of a GPM is dependent on the perception and consideration of other theory and consideration that may or may not be true and factual.

Scientology theory is like a house of cards. I am not saying it is not useful from time to time. I am saying Hubbard brought it to market positioned as Truth, or Truth Finding Procedure. <snipped>

Damn I wish I'd written this!

You've really torn down the veil

 

[Hatshepsut]

Roger B
And for Hats, I'd make sure she has the very most up-to-date version of the Clean-Slate R/D

Rog

I'll have to check the date on the materials.
THANX

 

[programmer_guy]

Big welcome to Programmer Guy from my old stomping grounds...glad to have you join us here!

Do you mean this message board or just this thread?

I've been here since near the beginning.

 

[lkwdblds]

There were no waters to smooth at that time, Lakey. After my intro session at CCLA, my relationship with my mother was better. She didn't come in to smooth any waters. She was very sick. I had given her some touch assists in the hospital and at home and she had responded very well to them. After the SO doctor came to their house and spoke with them, she came in thinking she might get better....until the disconnection at ASHO happened.....that's when the waters became quite stormy and some smoothing would have been good then, but there wasn't any.

Well, you win some and lose some, this is one speculation where I lost

I also wanted to say this about my mom. She was very bright and clever. She wasn't social, but occassionally there would be get togethers of women for an occassional baby shower or wedding shower and the gals would play games. My mom always won. Eventually they quit playing with her because she could outfox them. That tickled her that she could win out and be better than the rest of them.

She was an excellent housekeeper and bookkeeper. She was very efficient. She made the best fried chicken I ever ate, bar none. She made wonderful bread pudding, apple pies, pumpkin pies and chocolate cake to die for. I think she would have been a lot of fun if she could have ever got out of the muck she was in.

I think the field auditing from someone who was blown helped her some. Before she died she told me that she thought she and my dad had been married in a past life. She also told me that she wasn't going to pick up a body right away - she said she was just going to hang around for a while and watch over the family because there was a court case pending for the family business that she thought she needed to keep an eye on. When it came time for her to go , she showed absolutely no fear of dying. I have no idea what she got auditing on, but I don't think she would not have said those things without having received auditing.

Thanks for letting me know that parents from their generation were skeptical and it wasn't just my parents. That gives me a little different perspective on their attitude toward Scientology, because I thought I was about the only one having that kind of trouble with my parents back then. I did not hear other people talking about the kind of trouble I was having with my parents.

Here's one which you needed to hear! Of course you didn't hear other people talking about it. We all knew we would be sent to Ethics if we did so.

That would be good if my story would save someone from getting involved in the CoS.

With nearly 20,000 views, I bet you have saved several, not just one!

It was just the path I took in life and I was not very good at choosing the best paths in life.

Uh,Yeah! Look at the hundres, maybe thousands of stories from ex Scios on the internet including the one we are posting on. I got out of the Sea Org quickly which was laudible but stayed in C of S 28 more years. Many of us were hooked by LRH and "were not very good at choosing the best paths....:

I just hope that the good parts of the tech survive and are passed on through generations. When I look at the crowd at the Freezone or critics conventions or get togethers, I see a lot of grey and white heads so it looks like there will be quite a few people leaving in the not too distant future and I hope there will be some trained people coming up behind them to take their place to keep the ball rolling. I think it would be good if there were a lot of field auditors all over the world, using tech that really works without any of the BS.

Don't worry about the grey and white hair. Just on this one thread, just think of all the good tech which is presented and talked about here in writing. This is a permanent record which is now part of history. (We really need to make at least the tech part of this thread into an E book!!). Some of the most aware beings on Earth are posting here and they will be back in younger bodies after this life. Can you imagine how precocious some of us will be as little kids when we are reborn. We will be little terrors of wisdom!

I just want to let you know when you come back at me with "What you are saying is that....." - this bothers me. I feel like you are trying to interpret what I am saying and sort of repeating it back to me like a psychologist or a salesman would do and it sort of doesn't come back at me the way I said it. I've noticed this a couple of times in your reponse to my posts and it makes me feel like you're trying to tell me what I'm saying, kind of like you're sort of trying to talk or speak for me or tell me what my own words mean by rewording it or rephrasing it when I've already said it. I don't really know how to express what I'm trying to say here....it just makes me uncomfortable. I wish I could be more specific.

On the "What you are saying is that..." that I use, I am trying to use it as an acknowledgement to let you know that I have empathy for you and believe that I have duplicated you. I want my acknowledgements to be appropriate and personal and to really convey that I care and believe I understand. You are the second person who has objected to this phrase so I have to rephrase it. Do you have any suggestion for a better phrasing?

What I am really trying to communicate to you is that I consider you important and consider your story very valuable and that I read it and I believe that I understand what you are saying. What is a short phrase which says all of this? What if I inserted "as I see it" and "correct me if I'm wrong", i.e. "As I see it, what you are saying is that.............., please correct me if I am wrong. Would that work for you? If not, I'd like to get something which did work.
Lakey

 

[Hatshepsut]

Leon

Both types of gain are valuable when dealing with a case. The Kn thing I don't much ageree with is always focussing only on what the guy says he wants handled. The bank is a self-protective mechanism and will likely lead such a person into never handling his case fully. Only superficailly on a feel-good basis.

That's 2 NZ cents. What's the exchange rat days?

Good Point.
There are many roads to Rome though. Like Roger has pointed out, the 'cookie cutter" technique denied a lot of people their right items. I noticed that even something like the False Purpose RD can get to what is protected in the mind...like service facsimilies or computations which reveal themselves to be ludicrous. I DO agree that the bank is a self protecting mechanism and you sometimes have to be adept at crawling under the wire.
I've found protectors of charge in running NOTs types of procedures. A grouping whose job it is to keep the attention 'away' from the area or exude unconsciousness, or disinterest etc. There/s lots of this kind of thing in the bank and its well worth while to have the right tool for the right job.

 

[Ted]

To FoTi

I am on page 19 of your story.

You have been on one helluva ride.

I had no idea.

 

[Ted]

To FoTi

And one or two more things:

Six months on the purification rundown is absolutely criminal.

Five grams of immediate release niacin day after day is criminal medical practice.

 

[RogerB]

Jack Horner's "clearing help bracket" has 6 questions:

1. In relation to __________how could you help another?
2. In relation to __________how could another help yourself?
3. - 5. (same question reworded with the other 3 flows: you help yourself, another help him/herself, another help another)
6.How could ______________ help you?

Usually run on positive qualities and their opposites (like knowledge/ignorance, truth/untruth etc.) - the six questions on one side, then the other, back and forth. Not a quickie process - can apparently always be run to the point where the client transcends the automaticity of the positive/negative connotations of the concepts, i.e. begins to see that ignorance is an important and useful quality as is knowledge, etc.

Yes this is good, and correct.

Life is a composite or game of + and - . . . as in the example above of knowledge versus ingorance, ignorance is even an intention on the part of some individuals! Unawareness, is of course, a slightly different issue . . . . though in common parlance and language usage, the state of unaware unknowingness = ignorance, so the bracket of help above would work fine.

It is to be noted that Carmelo's examples here and Horner's R/D deals with issues/items that are natively our own . . . not the proposition of some putative "implant." That is the distinction I am making with my earlier post.

R

 

[nw2394]

It has taken me the better part of a lifetime!

Yes, well, this might be a symptom of what I feel is an inherent error in the Scn paradigm . . . the incessant hunt for what is negative/wrong to fix.

Yeh. Maybe so. But I don't blame anyone for that - it was my life - my hunt for negatives.

Nick

 

[Ted]

To Mark

About Trey's FZ talk: Nothing new. It was a 30 minute Briefing Course synopsis on valences.

All due respect to Trey, I am past any fascination I used to have over LRH, higher classed auditors, and mysterious incidents or mind traps, or new and fantastic rundowns. That's not to say I would deny or invalidate anyone who is enjoying this stuff. I would not as long as they did not target me as a prospect.

That's it. No further comment.

 

[Terril park]

And one or two more things:

Six months on the purification rundown is absolutely criminal.

Five grams of immediate release niacin day after day is criminal medical practice.

Prolonged release version was the problem.

Not sure of problems re immediate release over 6 months.

Probably minimal as these high and prolonged doses were given
to handle high cholesteral, over years, and are the basis of
medical problems re niacin.

Better medical moderating of such problems has never existed
re the purif AFAIK, and should be. There have been a few[ very
few best I know] bad results.

However, many on the purif in the US were referred by courts and
were criminal and didn't want to come off drugs.

Those who had heavy drug history may have had damaged
livers, kidneys and the purif may have been too steep a gradient.

Me, did it twice and loved it.