The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Veda]

You're right, lkwdblds. I am wasting my time on this thread.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

You're right, lkwdblds. I am wasting my time on this thread.

bullshit

 

[Hatshepsut]

The above is good advice for any company organization or nation. Good or evil.

When you are attacked, attack back, give it to the attacker with both barrels. i see this as common sense IN A DOG EAT DOG WORLD.

The unfortunate thing is Scientology DESERVED, RICHLY DESERVED the attacks it has gotten.

Here Here

 

[Hatshepsut]

<snipped>

Aaaaawwwww

 

[Leon]

Veda does excellent work on this thread and generally in indexing and pinpointing the evils and insanities of LRH over the years. His references and cross-references etc are of great value - no doubt about that.

What he misses - in spite of being told and told and told - is that we guys down in the Orgs did things the way we wanted and did the best we could for each other. We were not evil nor were we insane. Quite the opposite. And so we won and loved what we were doing (we called it Scientology) (I still do) and when done the way we did it it is a lovely subject.

And you don't need to be duped or brainwashed in order to have a lot of fun in and with Scientology. You just need to be a normal guy doing normal things. The fun comes easily.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Hey man,
Please differentiate between COS and scn. Us loonies here are NOT
a cult. We talk about anythingv to anyone.

Who says I don't? - I might generalize just to get a rise outta you..

But I do think that the 'viral' content in Hubbards work is what created the cult as we know it.. It is an distinct possibility that I should think you need to be aware of more than I do.

 

[degraded being]

Veda does excellent work on this thread and generally in indexing and pinpointing the evils and insanities of LRH over the years. His references and cross-references etc are of great value - no doubt about that.

What he misses - in spite of being told and told and told - is that we guys down in the Orgs did things the way we wanted and did the best we could for each other. We were not evil nor were we insane. Quite the opposite. And so we won and loved what we were doing (we called it Scientology) (I still do) and when done the way we did it it is a lovely subject.

And you don't need to be duped or brainwashed in order to have a lot of fun in and with Scientology. You just need to be a normal guy doing normal things. The fun comes easily.

"What he misses ....."
The way I understand it Veda doesn't miss those things. He goes beyond those things and is not restricted to those things or by those things, which you seem to be Leon, IMO.
It is a complex subject. I love Veda.

 

[Ted]

The Dalai Lama Says...

Dalai Lama: "We can think of honesty and dishonesty in terms of the relationship between appearance and reality. Sometimes these synchronize, often they do not; but when they do, that is honesty, as I understand it. So we are honest when our actions are what they seem to be. When we pretend to be one thing but in reality we are something else, suspicion develops in others, causing fear. And fear is something we all wish to avoid."

 

[lkwdblds]

I agree fully with this, also Carmelo's Post #7280

Veda does excellent work on this thread and generally in indexing and pinpointing the evils and insanities of LRH over the years. His references and cross-references etc are of great value - no doubt about that.

What he misses - in spite of being told and told and told - is that we guys down in the Orgs did things the way we wanted and did the best we could for each other. We were not evil nor were we insane. Quite the opposite. And so we won and loved what we were doing (we called it Scientology) (I still do) and when done the way we did it it is a lovely subject.

And you don't need to be duped or brainwashed in order to have a lot of fun in and with Scientology. You just need to be a normal guy doing normal things. The fun comes easily.

Perfectly stated Leon. I like, "We were not evil nor were we insane. Quite the opposite. And so we won and loved what we were doing...." I also like your closing paragraph, directly above.

Veda provides a very valuable function here. However, he can not seem to reconcile what we tell him with the many instances of evil tech and evil intentions emanating from Hubbard which he has accurately researched and catalogued.

Veda seems to feel that once he exposes those evil intentions, then any rational person, once verifying the truth of what Veda has said, will suddenly see the light and condemn the entire subject and its founder. Any gains or fun which a person either received or gave should pale when the extent of Hubbard's evil intentions and agenda are revealed.

For the reasons perfectly stated by Leon in his referenced post, this usually does not happen. Veda is aghast that we still cling to these alleged wins and still remember the fun we had, and for many still have. In his view of things, there are only two reasons why we would do this, either we are evil ourselves or we are insane.

RESOLVING THIS DILEMMA?
The best hope of resolving this dilemma which I know of is in using Johnny the Magic Thetan's method of looking at things. In Johnny's paradigm, Veda is correct, 100% correct in his assessments in his own Universe. However, Leon and all of us who believe as he does are also 100% correct in their own Universes. This is totally okay, nobody is wrong in anyway and all parties are sane. If the two sides seek agreement in the Physical Universe, all that is necessary is that each side provide for, in their Universe, the possibility that other sane people may not share their reality, perhaps due to the fact that they view from different viewpoints, or one side is interior to the situation while the other party is exterior to it or whatever the reason may be.

I believe this would be called, GRANTING OF BEINGNESS. Carmelo, Leon, myself and others have all granted beingness to Veda and his point of view. If he could just allow for our point of view to exist within his own Universe, then the entire situation is automatically resolved and in fact, there is no situation any longer. If he can not do that, then either we continue on just as before, endlessly debating and arguing the same points over and over or the two universes simply sever their ties and stop communicating. That would be a shame. IMHO, both sides would lose something major if that were to happen.
Lakey

 

[RogerB]

On the issue of this current little "dispute" regarding the truth of what Scn is or is not, and the posts and value of the likes of Veda etc., I have this to say.

Sanity, in many respects, is an issue of balanced judgment. A judgment and analysis that takes into account all of the elements and with all elements correctly weighted.

What pisses people off, and what is destructive, is when extreme one-sided "viewpoints" based on only one element of the issues and facts of the scenario are asserted and also used in incorrect balance weight and value compared to the whole.

As an example, Veda, Degraded Being, et al, only sing one part of the song . . . and from what I see, sing it out of tune.

There is good and bad of and in Scn. Hubbard lied and was nuts and did show some evil intents . . . . but he also showed some positive sides . . . and folks have been helped and benefited from what he provided as well as harmed.

The sensible posters here present a balanced view of the facts, and align the facts in terms of relative importance.

The nuts only sing one little part of the song, and accent it to their agenda.

In looking at this, I can only say that based on the info I can get from those who actually did any Scn (some critics, like Zinj, appear to have never been in nor experienced any of it) I would say they at one time felt the subject had some merit and they got some insight but that they later, "for whatever reasons," turned against the subject.

This is the classic "Power Split" scenario I spoke of in Pasadena . . . the Being splits away against that which it formerly wanted and enjoyed . . . The Being goes into a reverse "polarity" or "vector" against its former position.

This is all well understood in Kn. It is the result of experiencing something (abuse or too much BPC/charge accumulating) that the Being is unable to or refuses to experience and the mood scale response is to attack and/or go elsewhere to and hate that which the person formerly was involved in.

The "Power Split" is a solution to the problem of being made experience abuse or what the Being most does not want.

Of course, it is not necessarily a "sane" response . . . it is reactive, it is extreme, and it does not correctly balance the factors in the area or subject being reacted to.

And it is from this kind of reactive, or possibly evil or insane, position that certain folks always only ridicule and invalidate the positive points expressed in the balanced and more sane expressions of experience in Scn of others.

I would therefore say to Veda, in particular here, while your posts are accurate and contain a brilliant exposition of what Hubbard actually wrote, I would say you would be better appreciated if you also allowed the balanced fact that many did experience and obtain some positives from their association with Scn. And in particular those who were doing it before it went nuts in '63.

RogerB

 

[gfyork]

Did LRH listen to "Fireside chats?"

That was really a cool vignette . thanks for sharing Gary.

To me, the interesting part is how very much FDR's style of speech resembles LRH's -- or, more likely, the other way around. The intonations are similar, the rhythm of his speech, the way he tossed asides in the pot....

Had I been listening to this via headphones in a classroom, with no prior knowledge of the participants, I'd be thinkin' this was maybe a candid LRH conversation -- perhaps taken on the ship.

Perhaps, in that day, many folk spoke that way. Could be. Seems also possible that LRH deliberately used FDR as a model.

Best,

G.

G.

 

[Ted]

To me, the interesting part is how very much FDR's style of speech resembles LRH's -- or, more likely, the other way around. The intonations are similar, the rhythm of his speech, the way he tossed asides in the pot....

Had I been listening to this via headphones in a classroom, with no prior knowledge of the participants, I'd be thinkin' this was maybe a candid LRH conversation -- perhaps taken on the ship.

Perhaps, in that day, many folk spoke that way. Could be. Seems also possible that LRH deliberately used FDR as a model.

Best,

G.

G.

LRH did not like FDR for whatever reason(s). He degradingly referred to him as "Frankie Boy."

 

[gfyork]

Weird

LRH did not like FDR for whatever reason(s). He degradingly referred to him as "Frankie Boy."

Thanks, Ted, I didn't know that.

If the two are so similar in speech pattern without one having copied the other -- that's weird! Perhaps they both copied yet another?

G.

Added for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi0hchQdWkA&feature=player_embedded
G.

 

[Zinjifar]

Thanks, Ted, I didn't know that.

If the two are so similar in speech pattern without one having copied the other -- that's weird! Perhaps they both copied yet another?

G.

At that time, those who disliked FDR disliked FDR *intensely*

Throw in that FDR was seen by Ron as the *direct* competition for 'smashing his name into history'; enough so that he earned a prediction that Roosevelt's name would be forgotten in a hundred years.

So; it's not surprising that Ron would imitate him

Zinj

 

[Panda Termint]

Hubbard's "Frankie the Limper" slur always made me cringe;

Fair usage quote from 'The Free Being' tape (1963)

'For instance, Frankie the Limper, over there, during the 30s, he wrote out a big check. He wrote out a big check. He only thought in terms of billions and things, and he wrote out this three billion dollar check and he handed it over and he says, “Build an atom bomb, and there you are, wipe out cities and so on.”

Well, the knucklehead, he had Congress under his thumb, he had everything under his thumb, it was all set and roaring to go. He could have written out another check for three billion dollars and given it to another group and said, “Build a defense for an atom bomb.” But you notice he didn’t do that. See what I mean?

He said, “Build an atom bomb. Here’s three billion dollars.” He didn’t say at the same time, “Here’s three billion dollars, build a defense for an atom bomb.” So, you lay into a meat -body society the skill to trap a thetan. Why don’t you teach him how to free one, see?'

 

[Ted]

Hubbard's "Frankie the Limper" slur always made me cringe;

Fair usage quote from 'The Free Being' tape (1963)

'For instance, Frankie the Limper, over there, during the 30s, he wrote out a big check. He wrote out a big check. He only thought in terms of billions and things, and he wrote out this three billion dollar check and he handed it over and he says, “Build an atom bomb, and there you are, wipe out cities and so on.”

Well, the knucklehead, he had Congress under his thumb, he had everything under his thumb, it was all set and roaring to go. He could have written out another check for three billion dollars and given it to another group and said, “Build a defense for an atom bomb.” But you notice he didn’t do that. See what I mean?

He said, “Build an atom bomb. Here’s three billion dollars.” He didn’t say at the same time, “Here’s three billion dollars, build a defense for an atom bomb.” So, you lay into a meat -body society the skill to trap a thetan. Why don’t you teach him how to free one, see?'

I always took that as Ron's upset over the check not being written to him.

 

[Panda Termint]

Lol, Ted. Good one! The thing that always bugged me was the idea of Ron calling a person inflicted with Polio a "limper". It was the first time I saw Hubbard's feet of clay.

 

[lkwdblds]

Excellent Zinj!

At that time, those who disliked FDR disliked FDR *intensely*

Throw in that FDR was seen by Ron as the *direct* competition for 'smashing his name into history'; enough so that he earned a prediction that Roosevelt's name would be forgotten in a hundred years.

So; it's not surprising that Ron would imitate him

Zinj

I was going to answer Gary York with just what you said, Zinj. I believe LRH called him "Frankie the Limper" on a couple of tapes, refering to FDR's having polio and having to walk using metal braces. On another tape, he pokes fun at FDR and says, "It was not the Greeeeeeeat Roosvelt that got the US out of the Great Depression...." but other people, mentioning specifically Bing Crosby, the great singer.

Oddly enough, mentioning Crosby was probably an accurate call, he probably did contribute enough to raise people's spirits and boost their morales during that time to have a significant effect on raising the country's tone and energy levels helping to end the Great Depression.

Hubbard trashed Roosevelt and made fun of him at every opportunity. There was no reason for this other than narcissism and jeolousy. In a typical Hubbard manuever, it is highly likely that he patterned his speech patterns after his nemesis. We all know now that Hubbard could not tolerate anyone other than him being in the limelight. He would always discredit such people but that did not stop him from using their successful techniques.

I have also noticed that when Hubbard tells jokes on tapes, he patterns his joke delivery to sound a bit like Bob Hope, the great comedian, who acted in movies with Bing Crosby and became extremely well known by putting on USO shows for our servicemen in WWII and all subsequent wars. Has anyone else noticed this?
Lakey

 

[Enthetan]

Veda does excellent work on this thread and generally in indexing and pinpointing the evils and insanities of LRH over the years. His references and cross-references etc are of great value - no doubt about that.

What he misses - in spite of being told and told and told - is that we guys down in the Orgs did things the way we wanted and did the best we could for each other. We were not evil nor were we insane. Quite the opposite. And so we won and loved what we were doing (we called it Scientology) (I still do) and when done the way we did it it is a lovely subject.

And you don't need to be duped or brainwashed in order to have a lot of fun in and with Scientology. You just need to be a normal guy doing normal things. The fun comes easily.

That was the essential trap of Scientology. It needed good and loving people on the actual delivery lines in order to be viable, and these good people needed to be convinced that what they were doing was of benefit to the public and the world.

 

[Enthetan]

Perhaps, in that day, many folk spoke that way. Could be. Seems also possible that LRH deliberately used FDR as a model.

However much LRH may have disliked FDR as a person, nobody could deny that FDR had a very effective and convincing speaking style. I could see LRH imitating FDR's style for that reason.