The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[CarmeloOrchards]

I dub myself the Bob Uecker of the thread. Bob Uecker was a very marginal baseball player who did make it to the major leagues with the St. Louis Cardinals. He managed to play there in a part time role for 6 years, 1962 to 1967. For his entire 6 year career he hit a total of 14 home rooms and drove in 74 runs. His lifetime batting average was .200 which is very low. Later on he got a job as a color man on the St. Louis broadcasting staff. He developed a routine not unlike that of comedian Rodney Dangerfield, always putting himself down for being a non entity, just barely making it into the big leagues and lasting there parts of 6 seasons. He was not without accolades. The 1964 St. Louis team won the World Series and he was given his World Series ring and was cut a large cash bonus for playing on the World Championship team. Once in a while they would show a clip of his hitting one of his handfull of home runs.

Uecker's shtick caught on and he was able to launch a career as a comedian and a baseball commentator and broadcaster.

I most resemble Bob Uecker, here on this thread. Barely good enough to play in the big leagues, I did start this thread, which is akin to Uecker getting his one and only championship ring. I possess some ability as a story teller and have a lot of knowledge at my disposal but I am the Bob Uecker of the thread, a guy who just barely made the major leagues but made a name for himself by airing his own dirty laundry and making fun of himself.

Here is a link to Bob: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Uecker

Gary

This thread fits the baseball analogy too.

As Yogi said, "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too popular."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Levzgjb7jT8

 

[lkwdblds]

Brilliant!!!

On the contrary, it may be excellent fiscal policy.

The reason why federal spending is so high is that the people paying the bulk of the taxes are a minority of the electorate, while a large percentage of the electorate pays little or no federal income taxes, while getting benefits from federal programs.

If we eliminated progressive taxation, fewer people would be enthused about government spending.

Absolutely outstanding summary Enthetan, just phenomenal!

I believe the top 1% of income earners pay about 33% of the income taxes and the 10% pay some astronomical percentage , perhaps 67% or thereabouts. We then do not enforce our borders and let everyone in and give them the right to vote without even requiring proof of citizenship. Sure the masses of "Johnny Come Lately's" into the country will vote for the "rich" to pay all of the taxes and they will vote that they pay none. The result is that productive people quit producing and/or move elsewhere where the tax rates are less oppressive. This type of thinking leads to the destruction of our economy and erosion of our freedoms as is happening right at this moment.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Well, I'll be damned, I agree totally with you on this!!

You left out a key word, Z.

The ongoing 'debate', such as it is, is more about the exact point where the Co$ went "COMPLETELY off the rails".

There is much of value in the subject. It has been successfully used to assist thousands in achieving their own goals, both from early on to relatively late. Yet, the Co$ is also a highly destructive cult and has been for decades. The tension between those two propositions occasions the popularity of such speculative discussions.


Mark A. Baker

Very nice post MAB, I agree strongly with you on this one. Very well stated!
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Maury Wills? I remember you did mention that!

Damn, Lakey…does that mean you don’t want to be Maury Wills anymore? Remember? I dubbed you the Maury Wills of this thread.

Maury Wills…a real scrapper, never gave up on a play, did whatever it took to get on base which made the big hitters want to get their “ups” and take their swings.

I liked Uecker, too. How’s about Maury Uecker or Bob Wills?

One thing for sure is you sure aint no Barry Bonds…but hey, I never liked that junky anyway.

Face

Maury Wills was very thin and very fleet of foot. I am over weight and a slow runner although I did run a 65 second quarter mile in the 11th grade, the second best time in my gym class of about 35 guys.

Wills would find a way to get on first base, then steal second and steal third. The other team's pitcher would be so intimidated that he would loose his concentratioin and make a mistake to the next batter and Wills would score.

The only thing I have in common with Maury is that I get to first base a lot, particularly with women. First base means maybe holding hands and a short good night kiss. I try to steal second base and am usually thrown out. Therefore, I seldom make it to third base and only very rarely score!

Constrasting that with the career of Bob Uecker, I wish I were Maury Wills, always stealing second, stealing third and them SCORING! As much as I would like that to be my epitaph, I unfortunately cannot claim that to be the case and Bob Uecker is much closer to how I am perceived on this thread.
Lakey.
P.S. Its not all bad, Uecker went on to be a comedian, appear on the Johnny Carson show dozens of times and even appear in movie roles and even announce pro wrestling on TV. Rodney Dangerfield, similar to Uecker in his shtick, went even further and became a major star. I trust ole Lakey, the Lakester will have some of their star quality rub off on me!

 

[Leon]

Baseball references! Love it!

But, Facey, maybe Leon doesn't know what an asshole Cobb could be. Great stats, but quite the asshole. Should we rethink that one?

Now I am off to the batting cage.

No, really. I am going to the batting cage. This old boy can still pound 'em out.

I have absolutely no idea who Ty Cobb is or was so I couldn't possibly be offended by it. Mind you that means I couldn't be complimented with it either. Could one of you yankee gringos explain to me who he was? And all those others too.

 

[Veda]

Against my better judgement, since I've been misrepresented, on this thread, by Leon, lkwdblds, and Roger, who seem to sincerely believe that I have a view that I do not have - i.e. that Scientology is "all bad," etc., I'm posting these three links to three pages of a thread. It contains my responses to someone who initiates an exchange with me. The first statement from this person begins with the assertion that, I "want to mind fuck anyone who has any affinity for Scn and Dianetics," and the next begins with, "Fuck you."

This sort of thing is slightly amusing but what's disappointing is for the likes of Leon, lkwdblds, and Roger to be unable to see what I have been saying on ESMB.

I could have selected any number of old posts to illustrate the point I'm trying to make, and to set the record straight but, since it's probably a wasted effort, I'm not going to bother searching for them. These came up in an initial search, and these three pages will do.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20140&page=5


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20140&page=6


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20140&page=7


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfopqEDe_Og

Over and out.

 

[Hatshepsut]

Great Babe Ruth video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZQCas634BY

I have never felt Scn was a totally new subject. I was there to learn to sneak around the back way... getting a chance to fight back against something. I wanted the magic. I suspected all along that the charlatans and the returning sorcerers would be set to the same path.

Under and In.

 

[nw2394]

Nick, I did not know they dropped HAS, can you give an approximate year when that happened? Same for deemphasing HQS. Dropping these vital actions is amazing!

No, I can't give a good fix on the time. HAPI was certainly delivering HAS and HQS in late 75. And I got a couple of friends onto the HAS crse in a small mission in - er - not exacly sure - probably mid 78. Not long after that I joined the SO and disappeared into admin. The STCC, and I think other Div 6 type mini courses, were certainly out in the 80s.

 

[Leon]

I remember the first two of the links you give. I was impressed with the second one, and it really looked to me that Terril had fallen off his perch in a big way.

And then the oft repeated "Scientological Onion". Ah yes. You deny that you ever held the opinion that Scio was "all bad", and I accept that. But how is it that this onion that you so often refer to has no room at all for the many thousands of intelligent and sincere people who use Scientology on an ongoing basis as a method of brining genuine help and betterment to people. Wherever the onion mentions something good it is always with a rider that ths is just a bit of PR bulldust presented so as to beguile the unsuspecting public and thereby draw them deeper into the web.

Quote: "Here exist the potentially beneficial aspects of the many masked Scientology operation. The tragedy of Scientology is that the "positives" are used as "window dressing" and "bait on the hook," when they should have been the core and foundation. Thus the Scientology organization reeks of hypocrisy." So says the onion.

We were not hypocrites. And I don't believe the posters on this thread were - Lakey and Roger and Face and the others. Clearly you cannot accept the sincerity with which we lived and worked. The help given was given without any strings attacjhed to it. All of that came later when the Sea Org's baleful influence penetrated our world in the early '80s.

You may see what I describe as the Org I worked in as a special case oddity - and for all I know it was one. But to us it was the normal everyday use of a subject we loved. We looked on the blind fanatacism of the Sea Org to be a deviation from true Scientology. This was when Chinese School first arrived in the Org too. I left soon afterwards, knowing that the game we were playing was no more.

Veda, I am glad that you have had huge wins with Scn, and that others have benefitted so hugely through your application of it. I hope you continue to have such success. The evil intentions that existed in Hubbard and in the Orgs is not an imperative for the subject. It is not an essential part without which the subject will fail. Quite the contrary. Once the "good bits" are stripped out of the bullshit background (or vice-versa) then everyone can benefit enormously. I hope the subject survives the imminent demise of the CofS.

 

[Ted]

I remember the first two of the links you give. I was impressed with the second one, and it really looked to me that Terril had fallen off his perch in a big way.

And then the oft repeated "Scientological Onion". Ah yes. You deny that you ever held the opinion that Scio was "all bad", and I accept that. But how is it that this onion that you so often refer to has no room at all for the many thousands of intelligent and sincere people who use Scientology on an ongoing basis as a method of brining genuine help and betterment to people. Wherever the onion mentions something good it is always with a rider that ths is just a bit of PR bulldust presented so as to beguile the unsuspecting public and thereby draw them deeper into the web.

Quote: "Here exist the potentially beneficial aspects of the many masked Scientology operation. The tragedy of Scientology is that the "positives" are used as "window dressing" and "bait on the hook," when they should have been the core and foundation. Thus the Scientology organization reeks of hypocrisy." So says the onion.

We were not hypocrites. And I don't believe the posters on this thread were - Lakey and Roger and Face and the others. Clearly you cannot accept the sincerity with which we lived and worked. The help given was given without any strings attacjhed to it. All of that came later when the Sea Org's baleful influence penetrated our world in the early '80s.

You may see what I describe as the Org I worked in as a special case oddity - and for all I know it was one. But to us it was the normal everyday use of a subject we loved. We looked on the blind fanatacism of the Sea Org to be a deviation from true Scientology. This was when Chinese School first arrived in the Org too. I left soon afterwards, knowing that the game we were playing was no more.

Veda, I am glad that you have had huge wins with Scn, and that others have benefitted so hugely through your application of it. I hope you continue to have such success. The evil intentions that existed in Hubbard and in the Orgs is not an imperative for the subject. It is not an essential part without which the subject will fail. Quite the contrary. Once the "good bits" are stripped out of the bullshit background (or vice-versa) then everyone can benefit enormously. I hope the subject survives the imminent demise of the CofS.

Good points, Leon.

As for the church, it is dead. It is a zombie. It is a vampire. I know that it has taken people's money then kicked them to the curb without delivering services. In the '90s when I was getting Source magazine, my interest was in how many people graduated Class 6 and 8. For around ten years there were few BC graduates and only several Class 8. This was before GAT.

The church is dead.

 

[Enthetan]

One time I measured how much of a winner I would be if I deposited another few grand in my account at the org against how much of a winner I would be regarded as being if I got the new car and a nose job. I got much more lasting appreciation and admiration for the latter. It seemed I was only upstat until the org used up the money and then had to earn the status by repeating the former successful action of an advanced payment again. Preferably more than the previous AP. And the next one more than that one.

At one point I realized that the phony "admiration in exchange for money" was a really crappy deal. If one wanted somebody to flow affection and admiration in exchange for money, one could get a much cheaper deal in the local red-light district.

 

[Enthetan]

Absolutely outstanding summary Enthetan, just phenomenal!

I believe the top 1% of income earners pay about 33% of the income taxes and the 10% pay some astronomical percentage , perhaps 67% or thereabouts. We then do not enforce our borders and let everyone in and give them the right to vote without even requiring proof of citizenship. Sure the masses of "Johnny Come Lately's" into the country will vote for the "rich" to pay all of the taxes and they will vote that they pay none. The result is that productive people quit producing and/or move elsewhere where the tax rates are less oppressive. This type of thinking leads to the destruction of our economy and erosion of our freedoms as is happening right at this moment.
Lakey

Per the NY Times:

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.42 percent of total federal income taxes in 2007, according to the most recent data from the Internal Revenue Service.

​

If the people who run all the small businesses, the executives, doctors (and other professionals) who put in 60+ hour weeks, get fed up with working long hours just to get most of their income taxed away, then the federal government is in trouble.

Visualize a whole bunch of high-income people deciding that they would rather have half the income in exchange for a lot more leisure time to enjoy the money. Now visualize the impact of that decision on federal revenues.

 

[Enthetan]

No, I can't give a good fix on the time. HAPI was certainly delivering HAS and HQS in late 75. And I got a couple of friends onto the HAS crse in a small mission in - er - not exacly sure - probably mid 78. Not long after that I joined the SO and disappeared into admin. The STCC, and I think other Div 6 type mini courses, were certainly out in the 80s.

I know the HAS/Comm-Course was still in use in 78 or so, and STCC I think got introduced in the early 80's

 

[Enthetan]

Good points, Leon.

As for the church, it is dead. It is a zombie. It is a vampire. I know that it has taken people's money then kicked them to the curb without delivering services. In the '90s when I was getting Source magazine, my interest was in how many people graduated Class 6 and 8. For around ten years there were few BS graduates and only several Class 8. This was before GAT.

The church is dead.

I think that people who had an interest in becoming field auditors were especially likely to do class 6 and 8. Killing field auditing killed training. Lack of auditors means Co$ is unable to deliver services paid for.

 

[RogerB]

Veda,

Thanks . . . I am now better informed as regards you. In my last post I did say I did not know what your actual viewpoint is, but only saw the preponderance of negation of Scn in your posts of late. You have now revealed to me that you have balance. And that is good.

R

Against my better judgement, since I've been misrepresented, on this thread, by Leon, lkwdblds, and Roger, who seem to sincerely believe that I have a view that I do not have - i.e. that Scientology is "all bad," etc., I'm posting these three links to three pages of a thread. It contains my responses to someone who initiates an exchange with me. The first statement from this person begins with the assertion that, I "want to mind fuck anyone who has any affinity for Scn and Dianetics," and the next begins with, "Fuck you."

This sort of thing is slightly amusing but what's disappointing is for the likes of Leon, lkwdblds, and Roger to be unable to see what I have been saying on ESMB.

I could have selected any number of old posts to illustrate the point I'm trying to make, and to set the record straight but, since it's probably a wasted effort, I'm not going to bother searching for them. These came up in an initial search, and these three pages will do.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20140&page=5


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20140&page=6


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20140&page=7


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfopqEDe_Og

Over and out.

 

[Ted]

Per the NY Times:

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.42 percent of total federal income taxes in 2007, according to the most recent data from the Internal Revenue Service.

​

If the people who run all the small businesses, the executives, doctors (and other professionals) who put in 60+ hour weeks, get fed up with working long hours just to get most of their income taxed away, then the federal government is in trouble.

Visualize a whole bunch of high-income people deciding that they would rather have half the income in exchange for a lot more leisure time to enjoy the money. Now visualize the impact of that decision on federal revenues.

I am of the opinion that only people who pay taxes should have the right to vote in national elections.

As for the way Congress spends, we should all be demanding, "Where's the Return On Investment?" I see nothing for the investment in recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Installing Democracy is knuckle-headed. I suspect the people would have been amenable to the installation of a benevolent dictator. Even so, they would be more amenable to us staying out of their affairs.

That $two billion that went to Brazil so they could drill for oil to sell to China should have gone to China and they could lend Brazil money to drill. Another situation where we have no ROI in alignment with our Constitution and best interests.

.

 

[Ted]

I think that people who had an interest in becoming field auditors were especially likely to do class 6 and 8. Killing field auditing killed training. Lack of auditors means Co$ is unable to deliver services paid for.

Good point.

 

[lkwdblds]

Well stated Leon to the nth degree, Leon!

I remember the first two of the links you give. I was impressed with the second one, and it really looked to me that Terril had fallen off his perch in a big way.

And then the oft repeated "Scientological Onion". Ah yes. You deny that you ever held the opinion that Scio was "all bad", and I accept that. But how is it that this onion that you so often refer to has no room at all for the many thousands of intelligent and sincere people who use Scientology on an ongoing basis as a method of brining genuine help and betterment to people. Wherever the onion mentions something good it is always with a rider that ths is just a bit of PR bulldust presented so as to beguile the unsuspecting public and thereby draw them deeper into the web.

Quote: "Here exist the potentially beneficial aspects of the many masked Scientology operation. The tragedy of Scientology is that the "positives" are used as "window dressing" and "bait on the hook," when they should have been the core and foundation. Thus the Scientology organization reeks of hypocrisy." So says the onion.

We were not hypocrites. And I don't believe the posters on this thread were - Lakey and Roger and Face and the others. Clearly you cannot accept the sincerity with which we lived and worked. The help given was given without any strings attacjhed to it. All of that came later when the Sea Org's baleful influence penetrated our world in the early '80s.

You may see what I describe as the Org I worked in as a special case oddity - and for all I know it was one. But to us it was the normal everyday use of a subject we loved. We looked on the blind fanatacism of the Sea Org to be a deviation from true Scientology. This was when Chinese School first arrived in the Org too. I left soon afterwards, knowing that the game we were playing was no more.

Veda, I am glad that you have had huge wins with Scn, and that others have benefitted so hugely through your application of it. I hope you continue to have such success. The evil intentions that existed in Hubbard and in the Orgs is not an imperative for the subject. It is not an essential part without which the subject will fail. Quite the contrary. Once the "good bits" are stripped out of the bullshit background (or vice-versa) then everyone can benefit enormously. I hope the subject survives the imminent demise of the CofS.

Leon's post, followed by Ted's comment really says it all. There is not much more which could be said. My sentiments on the matter 100% echo Leon's.

I would just offer one bit of advise to Veda on a for what it is worth or take it or leave it basis. Veda, why don't you just write a post in your own words and clearly state your position? Why does your position have to be expressed obliquely? Why do you cite references which we must read which are supposed to reveal to us your true feelings? To me this is a communication via, why not state your positions firmly in your own words?

I would also say this, If the likes of Roger and Leon and even yours truly are not accurately getting what you are trying to tell us, then perhaps it might behoove you to consider that maybe, just maybe, part of the problem might lie with your inability to clearly express yourself to us. I am just saying that this is a possibility which merits serious consideration.

We all love you and respect you and want you to continue posting here and we feel your talents and knowledge are vital and contribute greatly to ESMB. That being said, none, if any (perhaps Face is an exception), can figure out accurately what you are trying to tell us about your personal views. Please tell us your true views point blank in straightforward English! You have excellent communication skills so please use them to clear up our misduplications!!!
lkwdblds aka Lakey aka Gary

 

[lkwdblds]

Absolutely brilliant. The key stat lies hidden in the graph!

I am of the opinion that only people who pay taxes should have the right to vote in national elections.

As for the way Congress spends, we should all be demanding, "Where's the Return On Investment?" I see nothing for the investment in recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Installing Democracy is knuckle-headed. I suspect the people would have been amenable to the installation of a benevolent dictator. Even so, they would be more amenable to us staying out of their affairs.

That $two billion that went to Brazil so they could drill for oil to sell to China should have gone to China and they could lend Brazil money to drill. Another situation where we have no ROI in alignment with our Constitution and best interests.

.

Sorry, I meant to respond to Enthetan's post and ended up responding to Ted's post. (Lakey)
Absolutely incredible, Enthetan. Your posts have been on a role lately.

THE KEY INVISIBLE STAT LIES HIDDEN IN THE LOWER LINE OF YOUR GRAPH!!!

Check out the period 1980 to 1988. These were the Reagan years. The graph shows that the percentage paid by the top 1% continued a study increase during those Reagan Years. How could this be?? In Reagan's second term of 1984 to 1988, Reagan pushed through congress, all controlled by Republicans, a drastic tax cut for the top level wage earners. The Top tax bracket was drastically cut from 70% down to 28%. One would have expected a huge drop in the percentage paid by the top 1% but astonisingly, the graph continues a study rise.

How could this be the case. The only answer which is possible is that by having an oppresive 70% tax bracket removed and replaced by a 28% tax bracket gave rise to a business climate which caused the top 1% to expand their businesses, invest in more R & D, build new buildings and last but not least, TO HIRE A GREAT NUMBER OF NEW EMPLOYEES AND OFFER THEM HIGHER SALARIES AND BIGGER BENEFITS PACKAGES. It was a win-win game for everyone, the top 1% , the lower 95%, the Government and the entire country. A long term boom was created which ran all the way through to the end of the Clinton administration and probably up to the start of Bush's war on Iraq.

That information is revealed by Enthetan's graph but you have to use your noodle a bit to see it. How could taxes by cut for 70% to 28% and not cause revenues to the government to drop as well. If someone else has a good explanation other than what I have said, I would like to hear it.
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

remember when Yoga was against the rules in the Co$?

Southern Baptist leader on yoga: Not Christianity

AP

By DYLAN LOVAN, Associated Press Writer – Thu Oct 7, 5:32 am ET
LOUISVILLE, Ky. – A Southern Baptist leader who is calling for Christians to avoid yoga and its spiritual attachments is getting plenty of pushback from enthusiasts who defend the ancient practice.

Southern Baptist Seminary President Albert Mohler says the stretching and meditative discipline derived from Eastern religions is not a Christian pathway to God.

Mohler said he objects to "the idea that the body is a vehicle for reaching consciousness with the divine."

"That's just not Christianity," Mohler told The Associated Press.

Mohler said feedback has come through e-mail and comments on blogs and other websites since he wrote an essay to address questions about yoga he has heard for years.

"I'm really surprised by the depth of the commitment to yoga found on the part of many who identify as Christians," Mohler said.
Yoga fans say their numbers have been growing in the U.S. A 2008 study by the Yoga Journal put the number at 15.8 million, or nearly 7 percent of adults. About 6.7 percent of American adults are Southern Baptists, according to a 2007 survey by the Pew Research Center Forum on Religion & Public Life.
Mohler argued in his online essay last month that Christians who practice yoga "must either deny the reality of what yoga represents or fail to see the contradictions between their Christian commitments and their embrace of yoga."

He said his view is "not an eccentric Christian position."

Other Christian leaders have said practicing yoga is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus. Pat Robertson has called the chanting and other spiritual components that go along with yoga "really spooky." California megachurch pastor John MacArthur called yoga a "false religion." Muslim clerics have banned Muslims from practicing yoga in Egypt, Malaysia and Indonesia, citing similar concerns.

Yoga proponents say the wide-ranging discipline, which originated in India, offers physical and mental healing through stretching poses and concentration.

"Lots of people come to yoga because they are often in chronic pain. Others come because they think it's a nice workout," said Allison Terracio, who runs the Infinite Bliss studio in Louisville.

And some yoga studios have made the techniques more palatable for Christians by removing the chanting and associations to eastern religions, namely Hinduism and its multiple deities.

Stephanie Dillon, who has injected Christian themes into her studio in Louisville, said yoga brought her closer to her Christian faith, which had faded after college and service in the Army.

"What I found is that it opened my spirit, it renewed my spirituality," Dillon said. "That happened first and then I went back to church." Dillon attends Southeast Christian Church in Louisville and says many evangelical Christians from the church attend her yoga classes.

She said she prayed on the question of whether to mix yoga and Christianity before opening her studio, PM Yoga, where she discusses her relationship with Jesus during classes.

"My objection (to Mohler's view) personally is that I feel that yoga enhances a person's spirituality," Dillon said. "I don't like to look at religion from a law standpoint but a relationship standpoint, a relationship with Jesus Christ specifically."

Mohler wrote the essay after reading "The Subtle Body," where author Stefanie Syman traces the history of yoga in America. Syman noted the growing popularity of yoga in the U.S. by pointing out that first lady Michelle Obama has added it to the festivities at the annual White House Easter Egg Roll on the front lawn.

Mohler said many people have written him to say they're simply doing exercises and forgoing yoga's eastern mysticism and meditation.
"My response to that would be simple and straightforward: You're just not doing yoga," Mohler said.
___
Online:
Albert Mohler's website: http://www.albertmohler.com/