The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This post has absolutely nothing to do what so ever with Ted’s post the other day...I was already planning on writing this post a few days ago but just hadn’t gotten around to it.

The only reason I came back around was to correct something for the Historical record on the Thread. That having been done--in my opinion most splendidly thanks to yet another Above and Beyond the Call Grand Confection served up by Cakemaker--I’m gonna go back to reader mode.

I’ll pipe up if something Scn historical or strong personal interest comes up and will post a Link when I post something on the Board that is germane to the OP of this Thread and its historical vein.

I’ve already previously bid my adieus.

Later Gators.

Peace.

Face

Face, you are one of the few posters who have made extremely valuable contributions to the actual history and unique insight into scn & Hisself.

Ted, was another it was great to see making superb posts.

Looks like 2 of the finest have been run off the thread and the thread is being taken over with the trivial bits and pieces slapped up trying to hold something together.

Can this thread last as anything but a dullards joke ?

 

[Antony A Phillips]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Memorial issues: The Pilot and Mary Sue Hubbard​

This is to let you know that we have recently posted digital copies of the memorial issue of International Viewpoints (IVy) published when the Pilot died. Also posted was the memorial issue published when it was discovered that Mary Sue Hubbard had died.

You find them, amongst more of the more recent IVy issues as pdf files at http://articles.ivymag.org/pdfs.html
The Pilot is IVy 83, Mary Sue is IVy 74.

All best wishes,

Ant(ony)

 

[Antony A Phillips]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Those exact details of Ken's finances were posted here by Heidrun maybe a year ago.

It is a bit hard to tell, but I assume your comments about the cult's involvement in Ken's supposed "rape" are supposition only, based on his own beliefs in the matter, and there is no evidence beyond Ken's statements.

I place no reliance whatsoever on Ken's session "revelations." Anyone who has read SuperScio, or parts thereof, would be nuts to do so. In my opinion, of course.

Paul

Thanks Paul,

Heidrun says she can't remember what she posted, and I don't know how to quickly search 1571 messages to find out. Not important.

With regard to the rest of your post, it does sort of suggest that if some one does something stupid in your eyes, you discount every thing they do or say. Which seems to me rather in the direction of two value logic (only black and white exist, no shades of grey). That sounds harsh, but is there some slight truth in it (gradients, you know)?

Somewhere or other (Hubbardian) there is talk of knowing all the facts before making a decision - an impossibility in my eyes.

My view of this comes from some 50 years of experiencing the "Church" getting worse and months of participating in a private email correspondence including the Pilot and others, both from the time before the "Church" knew the Pilot's identity and thus could get at his case folder, containing his "weak points" including sex and suicide, the time after he was revealed, and the time after his cave in (I think in 2000). It is a lot to wade through. At one point he made a summary, which he called the Archives of Hell, I have just tried to print it out, and it is 142 pages, without as far as I saw, getting what others in the group asked and suggested. (I suspect that Helena was part of that group using another name, in which case she shares that experience with me).

As far as I know I do not have an unhandled ARC break with the "Church". I think that possibly heavy fixation on one's own "Church" experience causes some people not to be able to view the "Church" objectively. I have the impression that the "Church" is meanly evil, and prefers covert means when possible.

But is it not perhaps an Academic question as to precisely how the Pilot died? After all it is a number of years ago, and I suspect the "Church" has got a deal worse (and more refined) since then.

All best wishes,

Ant

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: So What Did Happen To Ken Ogger?

I contacted Ken in solo session years after his death. He had been put into a state where he was miserable, unable to pick up a new body, and unable to do anything about it. Using advanced solo techniques, I was able to find the specific charge that did this and run it out. I don't know what happened to him after that, but I'd like to think he was able to move on and start a new lifetime if he wanted to.

Helena

Raises hand and jiggle's it about ...

I know what happened to him!

I contacted him a minute ago and he said to tell you to "MYOB and to stick your silly tek where the er sun don't shine, cos it didn't work, which is why he was miserable and unable to do anything about it etc etc etc" (Hey! Don't shoot me, like you, I'm just the messenger).

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: So What Did Happen To Ken Ogger?

Raises hand and jiggle's it about ...

I know what happened to him!

I contacted him a minute ago and he said to tell you to "MYOB and to stick your silly tek where the er sun don't shine, cos it didn't work, which is why he was miserable and unable to do anything about it etc etc etc" (Hey! Don't shoot me, like you, I'm just the messenger).

[video=youtube;r0yXqU-w9U0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0&feature=youtube_gdata_player [/video]

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

A small little town in Ohio

It's been a hundred or so  lately.

I'm sitting out on the porch looking out at grass for close to as far as I can see. Fireflies twinkling. I love them. My itty bitty buddy likes it outside even in the heat. This, of course, is all his. He can wander and mark his territory for quite some distance, without my worrying about cars.

Yesterday, in the space of an hour, around 5, the temperature went from 103 to 80 mph wind, then thunder, lightening, and rain. It cooled down to the 60s. Then it was hot and muggy again today.

My wife's aunt, who was in her 90s, rejoined her husband a week ago Friday. We have been cleaning out her house and affairs. Monday My wife is going to fly home, and Tuesday I'm driving the car back towing a U Haul.

Because My wife's aunt was so tied in with the community, country club, Lionesses, church, etc. My wife has sold the house and all the contents in about a week. The lady buying is our age, downsizing from 5 bedrooms to two. No real estate agent, just word of mouth.

One thing I would pass on to you regarding your mom or dad or even self: don't leave little things in the will. A person getting a set of mugs gets a copy of the will by Ohio law. So someone, who inherits a momento gets to know who got money and how much. Better to limit the will to big ticket, and have the executer empowered to distribute the small stuff quietly and privately.

We're in Washington Court House , Ohio. It is the county seat for Fayette County. It's about fifteen minutes from Wilmington, which is where Katie Holmes hails from. I'm thinking of driving over, and knocking on her dad's law office door.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: A small little town in Ohio

It's been a hundred or so  lately.

I'm sitting out on the porch looking out at grass for close to as far as I can see. Fireflies twinkling. I love them. My itty bitty buddy likes it outside even in the heat. This, of course, is all his. He can wander and mark his territory for quite some distance, without my worrying about cars.

Yesterday, in the space of an hour, around 5, the temperature went from 103 to 80 mph wind, then thunder, lightening, and rain. It cooled down to the 60s. Then it was hot and muggy again today.

My wife's aunt, who was in her 90s, rejoined her husband a week ago Friday. We have been cleaning out her house and affairs. Monday My wife is going to fly home, and Tuesday I'm driving the car back towing a U Haul.

Because My wife's aunt was so tied in with the community, country club, Lionesses, church, etc. My wife has sold the house and all the contents in about a week. The lady buying is our age, downsizing from 5 bedrooms to two. No real estate agent, just word of mouth.

One thing I would pass on to you regarding your mom or dad or even self: don't leave little things in the will. A person getting a set of mugs gets a copy of the will by Ohio law. So someone, who inherits a momento gets to know who got money and how much. Better to limit the will to big ticket, and have the executer empowered to distribute the small stuff quietly and privately.

We're in Washington Court House , Ohio. It is the county seat for Fayette County. It's about fifteen minutes from Wilmington, which is where Katie Holmes hails from. I'm thinking of driving over, and knocking on her dad's law office door.

Thanks for the nostalgia about Ohio. My Mom was raised in Dayton and we've alway had family in Cincinnati. In addition there were mishpoche (Yiddish for relatives) in Cleveland and Toledo.

I was surprised to hear of the temperature dropping from 103 to 80 in an hour. When I was in Ohio in '54, '59' 67' and '81 the high humidity kept things almost as hot during the night as they were at mid day. The storm must have had something to do with the temperature drop.

The first time there in 1954, being raised in L.A., I expected the temperature to drop at night since the sun had set. When it remained hot at night, the concept of humidity was explained. People would sleep on the front porch at night with fans blowing on them 1954. A few people had window A/C's but central air was not common. As I recall, the bowling alley in Dayton, 48 lanes wide, had central air.

I spent the next summer, 1955, as a 15 year old in Miami working for my aunt and uncle at their newsstand. To my surprise, Miami was just as hot and muggy at night as Dayton, Ohio. Window air conditioners were in common use in Miami by 1955, all major hotels had them and most of the residences as well. At this point I learned that East of the Rocky mountains the country tended to have high humidity and West of the Rockies, there tended to be lower humidity and a major cool down at night. Of course there are exceptions.

Moving to Houston for 1964-65 working in aerospace at NASA, I found out that the gulf coast was even more humid than Ohio. If you like it humid try Houston or even more so, Galveston, Texas, swamp land thriving with mosquitos and high humidity. The Houston newspaper ran an article stating that the weather in Houston was similar to that of Calcutta, India. If you showered in the morning in Houston and you walked a block to where your car was parked in your apartment complex, you would be all sweated up when you reached your car. Using you car A/C, you would cool down but your sweat would cake on you. Reaching work, it was a block or two walk from the NASA parking lot to the buildings where we worked; again more sweat and then entering the freezing A/C of the building. A lot of us guys who were California transplants, were getting frequent colds adjusting to the phenomena of repeated sweating and cooling. Eventually we got used to it.
Lakey

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I had a rich aunt die and in her will she said I owed her twenty bucks.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[FoTi]

Re: A small little town in Ohio

It's been a hundred or so  lately.

I'm sitting out on the porch looking out at grass for close to as far as I can see. Fireflies twinkling. I love them. My itty bitty buddy likes it outside even in the heat. This, of course, is all his. He can wander and mark his territory for quite some distance, without my worrying about cars.

Yesterday, in the space of an hour, around 5, the temperature went from 103 to 80 mph wind, then thunder, lightening, and rain. It cooled down to the 60s. Then it was hot and muggy again today.

My wife's aunt, who was in her 90s, rejoined her husband a week ago Friday. We have been cleaning out her house and affairs. Monday My wife is going to fly home, and Tuesday I'm driving the car back towing a U Haul.

Because My wife's aunt was so tied in with the community, country club, Lionesses, church, etc. My wife has sold the house and all the contents in about a week. The lady buying is our age, downsizing from 5 bedrooms to two. No real estate agent, just word of mouth.

One thing I would pass on to you regarding your mom or dad or even self: don't leave little things in the will. A person getting a set of mugs gets a copy of the will by Ohio law. So someone, who inherits a momento gets to know who got money and how much. Better to limit the will to big ticket, and have the executer empowered to distribute the small stuff quietly and privately.

We're in Washington Court House , Ohio. It is the county seat for Fayette County. It's about fifteen minutes from Wilmington, which is where Katie Holmes hails from. I'm thinking of driving over, and knocking on her dad's law office door.

Yes, yes.....please do go knock on his door!!!!

Knoxville, Tennessee is getting ripped with the heat.....last 2 days....103 in the daytime.....no rain....no clouds....no breeze....lawn turning brown....it's 4am here and it's 85 degrees outside.....prediction for today 104. Whew! I've lived here for 7 years and I've never seen it this hot. Thank goodness for A/C.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: A small little town in Ohio

Yes, yes.....please do go knock on his door!!!!

Knoxville, Tennessee is getting ripped with the heat.....last 2 days....103 in the daytime.....no rain....no clouds....no breeze....lawn turning brown....it's 4am here and it's 85 degrees outside.....prediction for today 104. Whew! I've lived here for 7 years and I've never seen it this hot. Thank goodness for A/C.

This house was built in the 1950s. It has, however, been heavily insulated top bottom and sides. With double pane windows.
At night we run a whole house exhaust fan all night. We open all the windows and doors (there are screens on everything) Around 8 AM we close the house up, and pull the drapes closed. Rately turn on a light bulb. It stays cool and comfortable till night with only one tiny air conditioner running through the day.

 

[RogerB]

Re: So What Did Happen To Ken Ogger?

I contacted Ken in solo session years after his death. He had been put into a state where he was miserable, unable to pick up a new body, and unable to do anything about it. Using advanced solo techniques, I was able to find the specific charge that did this and run it out. I don't know what happened to him after that, but I'd like to think he was able to move on and start a new lifetime if he wanted to.

Helena

Nice! Very well done, Helena

It really is nice to see someone taking responsibility for one's friends and connections and doing something that helps them.

Nice . . .

Rog

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: So What Did Happen To Ken Ogger?

Nice! Very well done, Helena

It really is nice to see someone taking responsibility for one's friends and connections and doing something that helps them.

Nice . . .

Rog

Quite right Roger ... lets all acknowledge and encourage each other straight back into the delusion of being 'oatee' ... I bet everyone really misses that particular hallucination.

VVVWD.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

With regard to the rest of your post, it does sort of suggest that if some one does something stupid in your eyes, you discount every thing they do or say. Which seems to me rather in the direction of two value logic (only black and white exist, no shades of grey). That sounds harsh, but is there some slight truth in it (gradients, you know)?

Hi Ant,

I solo'd about 240 hours from Ken's Self-Clearing manual in 2000. I found it valuable. I also thought his posts on reforming the CofS were very sensible. But I think that *anyone's* session data regarding stuff that is much beyond normal conscious memory is suspect. If it's "true for you" and makes someone feel better, fair enough, but as soon as it gets into telling others that it has objective reality, that is something else. Maybe it happened and maybe it didn't, but extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and session revelations alone don't fit the bill beyond evidencing one's inability to think straight if one asserts their truth. In a session it is sometimes fairly obvious that charge is coming off: the error lies in assuming that the "scene" one puts there is accurate, just because there is a valid sensation of charge dissipating.

And as for the idiocy of pronouncing global or galactic or universal events as "true" for everyone, that is an arrogant delusion on a grand scale.

But is it not perhaps an Academic question as to precisely how the Pilot died? After all it is a number of years ago, and I suspect the "Church" has got a deal worse (and more refined) since then.

Why should there be any question about it? He had half a mill in debts, next to no cash, no apparent means of getting his dishonest hands on any more money, no way to support his dependent mother, had recently seen the concrete-block scenario on TV etc. The coroner and police suspected no foul play.

Some people think me a conspiracy nut but after seeing the police report I never dreamed for a moment that Ken's death was anything other than pre-meditated suicide.

Remember that a Scientologist thinks he can just pick up another body, maybe with a between-lives implant in the way and maybe not. Death isn't necessarily such a big deal, especially if you are being irresponsible about it and his last few years weren't exactly showcasing how upright and above-board he was.

Paul

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

<snip>
Why should there be any question about it? He had half a mill in debts, next to no cash, no apparent means of getting his dishonest hands on any more money, no way to support his dependent mother, had recently seen the concrete-block scenario on TV etc. The coroner and police suspected no foul play.

Some people think me a conspiracy nut but after seeing the police report I never dreamed for a moment that Ken's death was anything other than pre-meditated suicide.

Remember that a Scientologist thinks he can just pick up another body, maybe with a between-lives implant in the way and maybe not. Death isn't necessarily such a big deal, especially if you are being irresponsible about it and his last few years weren't exactly showcasing how upright and above-board he was.

Paul

And, on the other hand, there is a very real trail ofdead bodies of " enemies " left in the wake of the C o $ that - at one point in time - looked "innocent".

People get to believe what they want to - and some will always insist on seeing the C o $ as innocent of any & all evil ...... so be it.

Where there is the death of a critic ?

I - based on PREVIOUS FACTUAL HISTORY - have my doubts as to their " innocence " in it.

jus sayin.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

And, on the other hand, there is a very real trail ofdead bodies of " enemies " left in the wake of the C o $ that - at one point in time - looked "innocent".

People get to believe what they want to - and some will always insist on seeing the C o $ as innocent of any & all evil ...... so be it.

Where there is the death of a critic ?

I - based on PREVIOUS FACTUAL HISTORY - have my doubts as to their " innocence " in it.

jus sayin.

I believed as exactly as you do up until a couple of days ago when Carmelo made a post that explained the Pilot's state of mind and his finances. That switched me over to now agreeing with Carmelo and Paul.

Even D.M. probably takes putting a hit out on someone as very serious business. There is always a risk of being caught, etc. With the Pilot, he took care of it himself so they didn't have to bother or take any risk of being caught. Also, if you look at it, with all the various detractors they now have writing negatively and speaking negatively about C of S, when is the last time any of the detractors has been found dead under suspicious circumstances?
Lakey

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I believed as exactly as you do up until a couple of days ago when Carmelo made a post that explained the Pilot's state of mind and his finances. That switched me over to now agreeing with Carmelo and Paul.

Even D.M. probably takes putting a hit out on someone as very serious business. There is always a risk of being caught, etc. With the Pilot, he took care of it himself so they didn't have to bother or take any risk of being caught. Also, if you look at it, with all the various detractors they now have writing negatively and speaking negatively about C of S, when is the last time any of the detractors has been found dead under suspicious circumstances?
Lakey

Susan Meister? Paulette Cooper ? Quenten ? Lisa McPherson ?
Nibs ? Perhaps MSH ?

Who knows how many were killed or how many were driven to suicide.

Enough has been leaked - like the phony hit & run against the Mayor of Clearwater - and the PUBLICATION of some fairly nasty " dirty tricks " against enough people to make the death of a critic BACK IN THAT TIME PERIOD not all that hard to be believed.

Today ? Maybe they are more toothless than they used to be.

That old snake can still strike once in awhile.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Susan Meister? Paulette Cooper ? Quenten ? Lisa McPherson ?
Nibs ? Perhaps MSH ?

Who knows how many were killed or how many were driven to suicide.

Enough has been leaked - like the phony hit & run against the Mayor of Clearwater - and the PUBLICATION of some fairly nasty " dirty tricks " against enough people to make the death of a critic BACK IN THAT TIME PERIOD not all that hard to be believed.

Today ? Maybe they are more toothless than they used to be.

That old snake can still strike once in awhile.

Oh for God's sake!

With Twitter, the internet, etc. The Co$ doesn't have the covert reach that it once had.

Right now they haven't even formulated a plan to deal with the TomKat explosion.

Tommy and Jessica are off line.

Davey has fewer trusted "go to"s than ever.

Murder and suicide are "usually" spur of the moment events.

The Cof$ is not feeling empowered. They are the "hunted."

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Oh for God's sake!

With Twitter, the internet, etc. The Co$ doesn't have the covert reach that it once had.

Right now they haven't even formulated a plan to deal with the TomKat explosion.

Tommy and Jessica are off line.

Davey has fewer trusted "go to"s than ever.

Murder and suicide are "usually" spur of the moment events.

The Cof$ is not feeling empowered. They are the "hunted."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M_Ttstbgs


Mark A. Baker

 

[Smilla]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Carmelo's telling of this tale makes perfect sense to me and has the ring of truth to it.

 

[smartone]

Re: A small little town in Ohio

It's been a hundred or so  lately.

I'm sitting out on the porch looking out at grass for close to as far as I can see. Fireflies twinkling. I love them. My itty bitty buddy likes it outside even in the heat. This, of course, is all his. He can wander and mark his territory for quite some distance, without my worrying about cars.

Yesterday, in the space of an hour, around 5, the temperature went from 103 to 80 mph wind, then thunder, lightening, and rain. It cooled down to the 60s. Then it was hot and muggy again today.

My wife's aunt, who was in her 90s, rejoined her husband a week ago Friday. We have been cleaning out her house and affairs. Monday My wife is going to fly home, and Tuesday I'm driving the car back towing a U Haul.

Because My wife's aunt was so tied in with the community, country club, Lionesses, church, etc. My wife has sold the house and all the contents in about a week. The lady buying is our age, downsizing from 5 bedrooms to two. No real estate agent, just word of mouth.

One thing I would pass on to you regarding your mom or dad or even self: don't leave little things in the will. A person getting a set of mugs gets a copy of the will by Ohio law. So someone, who inherits a momento gets to know who got money and how much. Better to limit the will to big ticket, and have the executer empowered to distribute the small stuff quietly and privately.

We're in Washington Court House , Ohio. It is the county seat for Fayette County. It's about fifteen minutes from Wilmington, which is where Katie Holmes hails from. I'm thinking of driving over, and knocking on her dad's law office door.

What a lovely reminiscing! I remember the pretty fireflies in our garden in St. Louis in July. We never get them in the UK.

I've been hearing about the high temperatures you've been experiencing in America and the fires. I'm one of those people who find temperatures above 72f very uncomfortable.

Although everyone in the UK is moaning about all the rain we've been getting and low temperatures in the sixties which is due to the jetstream being below the UK, I must admit that I'm smiling.