The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

How fitting is this? We have reached page 1,970 of the thread. 1970 was the year I got into Scientology and page 1970 of the Apollo '73 is where my Scientology story ends!
Lakey
P.S. - It was page 1970 when I started typing this post but it turns out this post is the first post on a new page 1971. Oh well, things don't always go as planned.

PPS - I got a surprise phone call from CO2 today. He and I have a full and total meeting of the minds as regards winding up the thread. We both know it is time for it to wind up, we both feel we did a good job managing the thread and we are both going to miss posting here on a regular basis. We also both feel the same uncertainty as to how long the thread will continue. We think it will continue to be read for some time while new posting will peter out fairly rapidly. However, neither of us is certain that this will be the case, it is just our best guess.

 

[Enthetan]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The problem with winding up this thread, is that the way the blog software is written, threads which do not get posted to are relegated to obscurity and oblivion.

Perhaps we can work with Emma and the mods to figure out a place for threads with valuable info to go, so that they do not meet this fate? Sort of a "best of ESMB" bucket, to which newbies can be pointed?

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The problem with winding up this thread, is that the way the blog software is written, threads which do not get posted to are relegated to obscurity and oblivion.

Perhaps we can work with Emma and the mods to figure out a place for threads with valuable info to go, so that they do not meet this fate? Sort of a "best of ESMB" bucket, to which newbies can be pointed?

Of course, you make a very valid point. However, this thread, due to all the subjects which it has covered, has the added dimension of frequently coming up on Google and other search engines, when various topics are searched. So, despite being relegated to obscurity on ESMB, it will still be able to be accessed by Google and other search engines.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

More Stats

Of course, you make a very valid point. However, this thread, due to all the subjects which it has covered, has the added dimension of frequently coming up on Google and other search engines, when various topics are searched. So, despite being relegated to obscurity on ESMB, it will still be able to be accessed by Google and other search engines.
Lakey

When I checked the thread this morning, there were 113 people viewing it, all Lurkers and I was the only ESMB member. 113 viewers at one time may be the most we've had. Also, here is a list of all those who have posted here more than 50 times:

Lkwdblds 3,269
Carmelo Orchards 2,851
Ted 1,334
Hatshepsut 1,294
FoTi 1,175
Mark A. Baker 903
afaceinthecrowd 899
RogerB 861
SweetnessandLight 696
Leon 593
Enthetan 511
Auditor's Toad 477
Terril park 442
CO2 335
Blue Spirit 301
purple haze 241
Posts 213
Smilla 160
Thetanic 143
Commander Birdsong 140
hbeer 136
EP - Ethics Particle 126
I told you I was trouble 109
The Magic Thetan 107
Veda 99
Posts 99
Jack Straw 87
Zinjifar 86
Programmer_guy 82
MrNobody 80
The Anabaptist Jacques 78
Gib 77
Dulloldfart 74
Jachs 67
Infinite 66
Antony A Phillips 51

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

140?

i've scarcely paid any attention to the thread

it isn't going to be closed is it?

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

140?

i've scarcely paid any attention to the thread

it isn't going to be closed is it?

CO2 and me aren't going to post regularly anymore though we will still check in. Commander, how about someone else, such as yourself, taking the lead in our absence?

I work the Suddoku and CRYPTOQUOTE puzzles every day in my local paper in a somewhat successful attempt to fend off senility. Today's CRYOTOQUOTE had what I thought was an incredible quote attributed to the author Tom Clancy. I think that this quote is so clever and is especially appropriate in today's cockeyed world of news and events that I just could not resist posting it.

The answer to the CRYPTOQUOTE is as follows: "The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy"

For anyone who is interested, the puzzle gives you the following letters: "SVN BTEENGNDYN UNSMNND ETYSTZD LDB GNLFTSP? ETYSTZD VLX SZ KLWN XNDXN, - SZK YFLDYP"

I have been working these for about 7 or 8 years now and am getting pretty good at it. This puzzle took me just under 10 minutes to solve. There are several tricks one can use and also one has to be a bit lucky to score a quick solution. For example, if the first word has 3 letters it is usually "The" or "You". I tried "the" and by doing so, I saw that the author's first name was a 3 letter word starting with "T" and "Tom" came to mind. Also the "e" in the word "The" shows up many times. Immediately I had 5 letters solved and was off to the races.

 

[CameLow]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

How fitting is this? We have reached page 1,970 of the thread. 1970 was the year I got into Scientology and page 1970 of the Apollo '73 is where my Scientology story ends!
Lakey
P.S. - It was page 1970 when I started typing this post but it turns out this post is the first post on a new page 1971. Oh well, things don't always go as planned.

PPS - I got a surprise phone call from CO2 today. He and I have a full and total meeting of the minds as regards winding up the thread. We both know it is time for it to wind up, we both feel we did a good job managing the thread and we are both going to miss posting here on a regular basis. We also both feel the same uncertainty as to how long the thread will continue. We think it will continue to be read for some time while new posting will peter out fairly rapidly. However, neither of us is certain that this will be the case, it is just our best guess.

Wow thats a coincidence! Seems like a nice point to wind it up.

Thanks for everything lkwdblds.... i found this thread an extremely valuable source of information when i was a lurker (years) and keep finding new golden tid bits whenever i read through it.
At one point i was trying to save the entire thing to a file on my computer so that i could reread at my leasure (incase anything happened to the forum etc - not that i think it will).

I never quite got through the entire thread, and for that i am a little upset, but there is still time!
Did anyone ever try and catalogue the thread? There was talk of that several hundred pages back...

All the best,
Camelow

 

[lkwdblds]

This one is too good to leave out!

I just checked my gmail account and found this from CO2 date July 18, 8 days ago. It has so much good data about CO2 that I believe his many fans will appreciate this:


"Oh, FUCK, SHIT, PISS, CRAP, DAMN!!!!

We can’t leave without my memories of this year, 1971

If I could relive any time, in my life, this would be the time.

I had and made friends in this year, that are still my best friends.

I was working the day and night watch in a small hole in the wall center on Santa Cruz Ave. in Menlo Park, CA.

I was the receptionist, the book seller, the course sup, and everything else.

This would also be a big year for the Feshbach clan. I sold Matt his first Dn books, DMSMH and Advanced Procedures and Axioms. He brought the clan in from that inauspicious beginning.

In May, I drove down to LA in my 1950 Plymouth, spent a night or two sleeping in my car in the ASHO parking lot before I got a room in a friend’s (Elsa) apartment on Colorado. El’s friend, Mary Jo and I hit it off, and she kept me from being lonely.

ASHO was on West Temple across the street from the Rampart Police Station.

At ASHO, I did the Solo course, while surviving on yogurt from Alpha Beta and Tommy’s Hamburgers on Rampart.

http://yesteryearremembered.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tommys_hamburger.jpg


Peggy Lipton (Mod Squad) and I used the same auditing room for solo sessions.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J1hkOxBTQwo/TlzQGyleqYI/AAAAAAAACDg/RCUA6ZhtB3c/s1600/Peggy+Lipton.jpg

For space, I’d go up Alvarado to Sunset to Douglas St. and then up to Elysian Park, where you can view Dodger Stadium on one side, and the City of LA on the other.

Grade 6 was great. It permanently freed me of stuff that had bothered me for ages.

At the AO on Westlake, I did the CC, and audited it for a week or two. This along with Grade 6 set me up for life. I was blown out of my skull, and the effects were hugely noticeable.

When I returned home, I was myself, only now I was larger in life.

I started doing the academy levels at SFO with Martha, a 46 year old OT 6 divorcee.

I wrote her little notes as we studied. Stuff like she was the most beautiful woman in the room (which she was). It didn’t take long for us to be cutting class (course), and going to the flickers.

One Sunday night, a couple weeks into Level 0, she was staying at Mary Roberts’ house for the night, and we kissed at the door, as I was leaving. This song by Nat King Cole always reminds me of that kiss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVpHLmZDs0o

Soon after, she had Clay McBride’s (her then boyfriend) apartment by Lake Merritt all to herself, and we became hooked up together as a couple for the next few years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEkIou3WFnM

Our relationship caused me to move out of my parents’ house, and to get a house of my own.

Over the next year or two, we spent lots of time working together in each of our houses, doing gardening, wallpapering, painting, cooking, and watching old movies on TV.

She taught me Latin and Attic Greek. I introduced her to Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. books. We both devoured Agatha Christie.

One summer night, I took her down to a favorite beach of mine, Garrapata, where we spent the night. It was only sometime later, that I found out that Garrapata means Wood Tick. The next day, we spent making out on my favorite beach, Carmel. I still know the spot.

And when we weren’t doing Scientology, we spent lots of time going to the movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPeSPB68i2c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFvRvSxsW-I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mz3TkxJhPc



Needless to say, over forty years later, she is one of my most treasured friends.



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Lakey posting for CO2

 

[lkwdblds]

Thread Wind Up - Final Assessment of Scientology

I've been kicking around some thoughts, sort of a wind up to the thread.

When assessing the effectiveness of Scientology and what kind of exchange a person obtains in exchange for the tremendous amount of money and/or work (at microscopic pay rates ),which is demanded of him or her, there is a very simple test which can be applied to adjudicate the effectiveness and validity of Scientology. This test is very straightforward, cutting through all the crap and various arguments which usually take place. Surprisingly, despite its simplicity, I don't recall anyone ever making this simple test!

THE TEST of VALIDITY
The simple test is to examine the lives of those who have spent a long period of time, or perhaps a lifetime, devoting themselves to scientology and the church of scientology.

In using my own life, 32 years of deep involvement, plus the lives which I am personally aware of plus the lives of people who we all read about on the internet, I have seen a definite trend repeated time after time as follows:

THE EARLY YEARS (The Honeymoon Phase)
The first few years often seem to strengthen a person. Most people realize that all is not well in our world and they are looking for answers and a means of improving both their own lives and the overall condition of the societies of Earth. When the person is exposed to Hubbard's writings and reads some of the supposed tenets of scientology and feels a certain positive energy which often seems to be present in the orgs, the person is apt to join up with Hubbard's organizations.

In the beginning phases, the prices of services are usually not astronomical and often a person believes he or she is obtaining privileged information, superior to that which is offered in more mainstream religions or universities. Many people start to feel that they, as they assimilate this new knowledge, are becoming happier and more powerful and know more than the average man or woman on the street. This initial phase is good for from 5 to as much as 10 years.

If a person has a nice Honeymoon phase, then starts to notice severe outpoints and gets out quickly, without being dragged through the mud too much, that person is often able to go through life ahead of the game, doing better than he or she might have done had they never been involved in scientology. I know of 3 people who can be said to fall into this category and they are Carmelo, Purple Haze and Johnny the Magic Thetan.

GROUP II - People who were in for decades, worked for COS and bought all of Hubbard's writings as being true BUT they had a life outside of scientology both before and after their COS experience; when they left, their entire world did not cave in. I am an example of Group II. I came from a stable family, practiced the family's religion, went to college, got a degree and worked in industry for 9 years before being caught up in Scientology. When I left the Sea Org, I probably could have resumed my aerospace career but chose instead to go into my Father's business. I had several close non scientology friends from my school days and my days in aerospace. Two others who shared some of my experience, IMO, are Magoo and Diana Class VIII. Both of those women were similar in that they came from strong families and they had friends outside COS to fall back on. For those of us in Group II, once we left, we were able to resume our former lives. Sure there were adjustments to me made. For a lot of us, we were always nearly broke because all of our money was constantly going into COS rather than into investments and retirement. Even so, people in this group seemed to have learned some valuable lessons while in COS and after leaving COS seemed to be able to lead full and satisfying lives.

GROUP III - LIFERS: People who stay in their entire lives fall into two main categories, those who are staff members and those who are public. In either case, these people have suffered through all the negatives which COS has to offer and most of them have received COS's highest levels of training and processing. When you look at this group you might expect to find highly evolved, free and super enlightened people who are thriving in life, attaining great joy in creating better societies.

This might be expected but that is not what one finds. What actually exists are a group of people, constantly undergoing security checks and spending vast sums of money on their services or donating tremendous amounts of labor for almost no monetary exchange. Furthermore, these people are often physically ill and as a group, they are not very happy. High level execs are stripped of their offices and are living paupers' lives under guard. Their lower level juniors are worked to the bone as long as their youth holds up but when their bodies begin to age and they cannot keep up their work schedules at their former levels, they are quickly fitness boarded and their employment is terminated. They usually have no skills with which to earn an income once they leave and they are given only a $500 severance pay for all their decades of service.

SUMMARY
A person who already had a good family and had friends and a career before scientology will generally do well if they leave scientology after 5 to 7 years or less. A person who went in without the above assets will generally be weekened by a 5 to 7 years stint as a Scientologist. People who went in with a full life can even serve decades in scientology and still exit in reasonably good shape. Some of what they learned in COS might be helpful to them as they live out the remainders of their lives. For those who stay in for the rest of their lives after they join up, they seem to make out the worst of all. More often than not, they are ill, unhappy and broke when they die and they have few if any friends at the time of their deaths. The decades they put in while in COS don't seem to give them any sort of edge as far as fitting back into society. In the final assessment, all their decades of devotion and service have left them destitute and alone when their life is over. That is the ultimate test when evaluating the value of belonging to COS and immersing oneself into a life devoted to Hubbard's teachings. At life's end, you have very little to show for your decades of devotion.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Thread Wind Up - Final Assessment of Scientology

I've been kicking around some thoughts, sort of a wind up to the thread.

When assessing the effectiveness of Scientology and what kind of exchange a person obtains in exchange for the tremendous amount of money and/or work (at microscopic pay rates ),which is demanded of him or her, there is a very simple test which can be applied to adjudicate the effectiveness and validity of Scientology. This test is very straightforward, cutting through all the crap and various arguments which usually take place. Surprisingly, despite its simplicity, I don't recall anyone ever making this simple test!

THE TEST of VALIDITY
The simple test is to examine the lives of those who have spent a long period of time, or perhaps a lifetime, devoting themselves to scientology and the church of scientology.

In using my own life, 32 years of deep involvement, plus the lives which I am personally aware of plus the lives of people who we all read about on the internet, I have seen a definite trend repeated time after time as follows:

THE EARLY YEARS (The Honeymoon Phase)
The first few years often seem to strengthen a person. Most people realize that all is not well in our world and they are looking for answers and a means of improving both their own lives and the overall condition of the societies of Earth. When the person is exposed to Hubbard's writings and reads some of the supposed tenets of scientology and feels a certain positive energy which often seems to be present in the orgs, the person is apt to join up with Hubbard's organizations.

In the beginning phases, the prices of services are usually not astronomical and often a person believes he or she is obtaining privileged information, superior to that which is offered in more mainstream religions or universities. Many people start to feel that they, as they assimilate this new knowledge, are becoming happier and more powerful and know more than the average man or woman on the street. This initial phase is good for from 5 to as much as 10 years.

If a person has a nice Honeymoon phase, then starts to notice severe outpoints and gets out quickly, without being dragged through the mud too much, that person is often able to go through life ahead of the game, doing better than he or she might have done had they never been involved in scientology. I know of 3 people who can be said to fall into this category and they are Carmelo, Purple Haze and Johnny the Magic Thetan.

GROUP II - People who were in for decades, worked for COS and bought all of Hubbard's writings as being true BUT they had a life outside of scientology both before and after their COS experience; when they left, their entire world did not cave in. I am an example of Group II. I came from a stable family, practiced the family's religion, went to college, got a degree and worked in industry for 9 years before being caught up in Scientology. When I left the Sea Org, I probably could have resumed my aerospace career but chose instead to go into my Father's business. I had several close non scientology friends from my school days and my days in aerospace. Two others who shared some of my experience, IMO, are Magoo and Diana Class VIII. Both of those women were similar in that they came from strong families and they had friends outside COS to fall back on. For those of us in Group II, once we left, we were able to resume our former lives. Sure there were adjustments to me made. For a lot of us, we were always nearly broke because all of our money was constantly going into COS rather than into investments and retirement. Even so, people in this group seemed to have learned some valuable lessons while in COS and after leaving COS seemed to be able to lead full and satisfying lives.

GROUP III - LIFERS: People who stay in their entire lives fall into two main categories, those who are staff members and those who are public. In either case, these people have suffered through all the negatives which COS has to offer and most of them have received COS's highest levels of training and processing. When you look at this group you might expect to find highly evolved, free and super enlightened people who are thriving in life, attaining great joy in creating better societies.

This might be expected but that is not what one finds. What actually exists are a group of people, constantly undergoing security checks and spending vast sums of money on their services or donating tremendous amounts of labor for almost no monetary exchange. Furthermore, these people are often physically ill and as a group, they are not very happy. High level execs are stripped of their offices and are living paupers' lives under guard. Their lower level juniors are worked to the bone as long as their youth holds up but when their bodies begin to age and they cannot keep up their work schedules at their former levels, they are quickly fitness boarded and their employment is terminated. They usually have no skills with which to earn an income once they leave and they are given only a $500 severance pay for all their decades of service.

SUMMARY
A person who already had a good family and had friends and a career before scientology will generally do well if they leave scientology after 5 to 7 years or less. A person who went in without the above assets will generally be weekened by a 5 to 7 years stint as a Scientologist. People who went in with a full life can even serve decades in scientology and still exit in reasonably good shape. Some of what they learned in COS might be helpful to them as they live out the remainders of their lives. For those who stay in for the rest of their lives after they join up, they seem to make out the worst of all. More often than not, they are ill, unhappy and broke when they die and they have few if any friends at the time of their deaths. The decades they put in while in COS don't seem to give them any sort of edge as far as fitting back into society. In the final assessment, all their decades of devotion and service have left them destitute and alone when their life is over. That is the ultimate test when evaluating the value of belonging to COS and immersing oneself into a life devoted to Hubbard's teachings. At life's end, you have very little to show for your decades of devotion.
Lakey

Mama wrote a fantastic reply to my post. I believe that Mama looked at the material which I was discussing in a broader and deeper scope than I had looked at it. Mama found some points where she was in disagreement but more importantly, as I see it, Mama took a deeper look into the material which I had offered and came up with some basic truths on the subject. To me, Mama's post is spectacular!! Here it is:

I respectfully disagree.

If you read my story of 1971, you can easily read between the lines to see that my girl friend and I chose life over Scientology at every turn. We chose to go to the movies and to take our friends off course to go with us. Given a choice of working on course or taking the cable car to a movie, we chose the movies.

We chose working on our houses, curing olives from our tree, making pickles, going camping, reading mysteries, making out and making love.

We, both, were and got to be better, really good auditors. Neither of us took our time on the briefing course, but we got through it in jig time without wrecking our quality of life.

The moral of the story was live life, don't be cowed by others pushing their agendas.

Do as I do, and as I say

Play your game

Don't let others box you into theirs.

Because of my age, I could just as easily been cannon fodder in Vietnam Nam, a Sea Org schnook, an org drone, a cog in the establishment.

With my family's support from early childhood on, I chose to march to my own drummer.

I loved my Scientology experience. When it was over, I let go. I was always a dilettante. I never gave them the power of decision over me.

Perhaps, in that way, I made the Scientology I had, my own. I, as an individual, was the basic building block of who I was.

I never made the group more important.

If there was a girl to be kissed versus a course to be attended , it was never hard for me to do the ethical thing across the greater number of dynamics. The course could wait.



Posted for Mama by Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

Mama came through with a new follow up to her last post. This one is really interesting to me as it should be to all of those who followed the Apollo '73 thread over the years:

WHY DO WE WRITE?

On the Apollo thread, you initially, wrote stories of previously unpublished history, and you invited others to contribute to your historical narrative.

My reason for being there was more to impart knowledge of how some things were or could be for (what I perceived) were Scientologists, who had led narrow and sheltered lives. I wanted to show the readers what was outside of Solari and Carr's bag.

Scientology enforced non freedom of speech. It was my intention to open up the minds of readers, whose thought processes had shut down (in order to remain in good standing).

Most of my messages came on a carrier wave of entertainment. I used humor to make my points.

I wanted people to read and respond and talk about my posts.

^^^That was my mission. I wanted the old thought processes unfrozen.

Face, Ted, Roger, Sweetness, Hats , each had different motives and things to say. We were not ultra refined pablum Wonder Bread. We were a healthy lively mix that fed on one another's comments.

We weren't venting, and we weren't on an agenda calling for the death of Scientology in every manifestation.

We were alive with positive aspirations. As opposed to killing the evil church.


"Scientology enforced non freedom of speech."

What a powerful line written by Mama, just 6 words and it says sooooo much. Hubbard has his axioms or self evident truths for Scientology and Mama gives us a fundamental axiom of ex Scientology in these 6 words!! Compound this with the fact that in its intro lectures and early honeymoon period when one first joins up, we are falsely told that Scientology is based upon communication which is stated to be a universal solvent. There is truth in that claim when referring to freedom of speech for all but when only Hubbard's communications are allowed to be freely expressed, the axiom breaks down, fails and does just the opposite of what it claims!!

"Most of my messages came on a carrier wave of entertainment. I used humor to make my points." What a brilliant idea to put one's messages on the aesthetic wave length of entertainment. Thank God for Jack Benny! Jack provided the first link of many where Mama and I established common ground. Mama related instances where someone would poke fun at Jack and he would look askance, usually to the left, look down, roll his eyes into a mildly pained position and utter the word "Well!". Just by recalling that piece of comedy which Jack frequently used, a friendship and working partnership between Mama and I was established.

Posted by Lakey for Mama

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This little essay by H.L. Mencken just came in from Mama. I couldn't resist posting it. The topic is somewhat timely what with an important election facing the USA this November. Here is Mencken's article:

" Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."

" Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods. "

"I believe in only one thing: liberty; but I do not believe in liberty enough
to want to force it upon anyone."

Morality is the theory that every human act must be either right or wrong,
and that 99% of them are wrong.."

" Most people want security in this world, not Llberty ."

" The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to
think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions
and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that
the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable. "

The first line is very thought provoking. Democracy worked in the USA reasonably well for the first two centuries. The country went from 13 colonies with a population of 4 million to 50 states with a population of 300 million and in about 140 years the country was the world's super power.

In its early form in the USA, this democracy's right to vote was not completely democratic. The vote was limited to males who were also landowners. Due to the conditions of the times, these male landowners were not ignorant and the choices they made in the voting booth led to an expanding country with an expanding wealth and middle class. Not only that but those voters had enough wisdom to enact major social betterment programs such as eliminating slavery and giving women the vote. Also, that particular society along with the British brought in the industrial revolution which started the world on the move towards the high tech societies which we have today.

Besides the U.S. democracy another interesting democracy is Israel. A tiny nation about the size of Riverside County in Southern California, Israel has developed a high tech society. Jewish people have been called many things, mostly extremely derogative in nature, but I don't think that any of their enemies has ever called them ignorant.

Thus we see at least two democracies, where citizens were not living in ignorance, which managed to grow and prosper. That brings us to the present day in the United States. Education has been dumbed down to an absolutely unbelievable degree. The average person on the street is pretty much ignorant in many key areas of knowledge and the ability to think straight. In addition to that, the US borders are not being maintained. All manner of people, mostly good people but people who have not been afforded a good education, are being encouraged to enter the country and partake of all the government giveaways which our country is willing to dole out to them.

It is at this point where Mencken's sage words above start to have real meaning. These next two election, 2014 and 2016 are critical. Depending on how those elections go, Mencken's comments will either be completely validated or will be proven wrong for now.
Lakey

 

[Gib]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

Mama came through with a new follow up to her last post. This one is really interesting to me as it should be to all of those who followed the Apollo '73 thread over the years:

WHY DO WE WRITE?

to explain and offer experiences that there are no "clears" and "OTs"?

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

to explain and offer experiences that there are no "clears" and "OTs"?

We all, have our own paths and beliefs.

 

[Gib]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

We al, have our own paths and beliefs.

what is a clear and/or OT?

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

what is a clear and/or OT?

To me an OT is someone who has goals which are beneficial to Mankind, other life forms and the environment and has the ability and power to forcefully state these goals and achieve them despite all obstacles which are put up to stop him or her.

Winston Churchill was such a man. After the defeat of France by Germany in WWII, Churchill was probably the only person in England capable of refusing to surrender to Nazi Germany and guiding Great Britttain to victory in WWII. Another candidate for OT recognition is Abraham Lincoln, probably the only man in the USA who could have got the US Congress to abolish slavery while preventing the South from leaving the Union.

The arts and sciences, religions and philosophy have also produced these types of people. Look at Beethoven, he starts to go deaf in his late 20's and yet rises to the rank of possibley being the greatest of all classical music composers. Paul McCartney had enormous success with the Beatles in the 60's and is still writing creative popular music nearly 50 years later. Matin Luther King had a dream in the 60's and now has a federal holiday named in his honor. Ghandi takes on the entire British Empire and gets them to bend to his will while Nelson Mandela does a similar thing in South Africa, taking on the White establishment in that country. All of these people were real OT's.

Examples of Clears are more difficult to conjure up, at least for me. A clear might be be a relatively sane person who is focused enough to do creative things and proud enough to do things professionally and freely share his or her creations with others. Joel Osteen, the preacher and Fred Astaire the dancer and Johnny Carson fit this mold. Margaret Thatcher of Britain is also a good example. How about Marlene Dietrich? Though a blonde blue eyed Nordic type woman, she denounced the Nazi party and moved from Germany to the USA and continued her acting and singing careers here in the USA. She performed on tour with the USO for American Troops during WWII and became a living legend in the later part of her long life. She was very sane and very consistent as to the values she adopted.

We have the Dahli Lama pouring out well phrased words having to do with how a human life should be lived. He goes on for decades doing this at a consistently high quality despite taking frequent criticism from certain groups of people living near his home base.

In summary, being clear to me refers to a person who has high ideals and principles and makes these known to the public, even if he is attacked by some. OT refers to a person who pursues a noble goal in the face of strong opposition but is still able to achieve that goal.

The names Clear and OT were coined by Hubbard and their meaning kept changing continually during his life. No Clears or OT's were made which fit any of Hubbard's various definitions but that does not mean that such people have not existed here on Earth. My post is intended to show that some figures of the past and present do have something akin to the abilities as stated in Hubbard's many definitions.
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

to explain and offer experiences that there are no "clears" and "OTs"?

four Q motorforker!!! i am O freaking T as all bleeping hades!

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This little essay by H.L. Mencken just came in from Mama. I couldn't resist posting it. The topic is somewhat timely what with an important election facing the USA this November. Here is Mencken's article:

" Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."

" Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods. "

"I believe in only one thing: liberty; but I do not believe in liberty enough
to want to force it upon anyone."

Morality is the theory that every human act must be either right or wrong,
and that 99% of them are wrong.."

" Most people want security in this world, not Llberty ."

" The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to
think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions
and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that
the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable. "

The first line is very thought provoking. Democracy worked in the USA reasonably well for the first two centuries. The country went from 13 colonies with a population of 4 million to 50 states with a population of 300 million and in about 140 years the country was the world's super power.

In its early form in the USA, this democracy's right to vote was not completely democratic. The vote was limited to males who were also landowners. Due to the conditions of the times, these male landowners were not ignorant and the choices they made in the voting booth led to an expanding country with an expanding wealth and middle class. Not only that but those voters had enough wisdom to enact major social betterment programs such as eliminating slavery and giving women the vote. Also, that particular society along with the British brought in the industrial revolution which started the world on the move towards the high tech societies which we have today.

Besides the U.S. democracy another interesting democracy is Israel. A tiny nation about the size of Riverside County in Southern California, Israel has developed a high tech society. Jewish people have been called many things, mostly extremely derogative in nature, but I don't think that any of their enemies has ever called them ignorant.

Thus we see at least two democracies, where citizens were not living in ignorance, which managed to grow and prosper. That brings us to the present day in the United States. Education has been dumbed down to an absolutely unbelievable degree. The average person on the street is pretty much ignorant in many key areas of knowledge and the ability to think straight. In addition to that, the US borders are not being maintained. All manner of people, mostly good people but people who have not been afforded a good education, are being encouraged to enter the country and partake of all the government giveaways which our country is willing to dole out to them.

It is at this point where Mencken's sage words above start to have real meaning. These next two election, 2014 and 2016 are critical. Depending on how those elections go, Mencken's comments will either be completely validated or will be proven wrong for now.
Lakey

MENCKEN!!!

huzzah! huzzah!

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

to explain and offer experiences that there are no "clears" and "OTs"?

it's gerbil warming like this that raises the CO2 levels on this thread...

 

[Enthetan]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

In its early form in the USA, this democracy's right to vote was not completely democratic. The vote was limited to males who were also landowners. Due to the conditions of the times, these male landowners were not ignorant and the choices they made in the voting booth led to an expanding country with an expanding wealth and middle class. Not only that but those voters had enough wisdom to enact major social betterment programs such as eliminating slavery and giving women the vote. Also, that particular society along with the British brought in the industrial revolution which started the world on the move towards the high tech societies which we have today.

One positive thing about limiting the right to vote to people who have a financial stake in the community (it was not just land owners, business owners qualified too): the people voting understand that they will be subjected to the consequences of their vote, and the consequences will be fairly quickly reflected in the market value of their property.

People who do not have a financial investment in the community know they can just move elsewhere if their choices make the community unlivable.