Did you take any measures to avoid transference or to avoid creating a dependency on you, Hubbard or scientology, along the lines that we have been discussing?
The Major Flaw in Knowledgism
- Thread starter alex
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Did you take any measures to avoid transference or to avoid creating a dependency on you, Hubbard or scientology, along the lines that we have been discussing?
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
So you wanna be successful on OT-3?
That works.
The instant I saw I was forcing an incident on a being that did not want it, I became my usual auditor-self delivering auditing "for the pc."
I spent many more hours doing that than auditing Incidents 1 & 2.
OT-3 being bullshit or not, I ended up very pleased with the results. Didn't have nearly a sniffle for 15 years afterward. That would be 15 years of no-auditing at all.
That works.
The instant I saw I was forcing an incident on a being that did not want it, I became my usual auditor-self delivering auditing "for the pc."
I spent many more hours doing that than auditing Incidents 1 & 2.
OT-3 being bullshit or not, I ended up very pleased with the results. Didn't have nearly a sniffle for 15 years afterward. That would be 15 years of no-auditing at all.
nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
Well, whether in auditing or in life, I've found that telling a disembodied other to do something specific like go to the maternity hospital to pick up another body is often met with BIs - so I quit that habit.
Nick
Veda
Sponsor
By their own descriptions, neither Ted nor nw2394 really did OT 3; they did something else that wasn't OT 3. Yet, in a low key way, seemingly unintentionally, both continue to promote OT 3. Has it occurred to either one that he might still be somewhat zapped from the experience that both claim not to have had?
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
Royal Prince Xenu
Trust the Psi Corps.
Where does this quote originate? If I had encountered while I was "in", I would have been "out" even faster.
Like people, spirits serve different purposes and have different goals. "Angels" are guides. "Dæmons" are helpers. Both come and go as they please. The only spirit that would be a "slave" is one so conditioned to believe, just like a $cilon.
Even though I was only ever an EOD8 auditor, I have "audited" disembodied spirits. All lrh's waffle about good communication and establishing agreement (which obviously, he never personally used) does work and I "employed" one "lost soul" to watch over another living person. Spirits have rights too, they are NOT slaves.
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nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
That doesn't even make sense - especially from one as apparently logical as you.
Just possibly you might take a look at the possibility that, whatever its flaws, there just might actually be something of value to this OT levels stuff.
Nick
It's in his Admissions right next to his more well-known affirmation "Men are your slaves"
Ref: http://www.ronthenut.org/admissio.pdf Page 11 "Material things are yours for the asking. Men are your slaves. Elemental spirits are your slaves."
While we see the physical universe manifestation of his "men are your slaves" in the CofS generally and the SO in particular, it is harder to see if his "elemental spirits are your slaves" affirmation was ever brought into manifestation.
But once one realises that it was one of his aims like the men-slaves aim then one seriously has to wonder what Hubbard was really trying to achieve with OTIII and NOTs.
I think this is the essence of this thread. Does an entity processing practice give the entity more freedom or more dependence and slavery?
nexus100
Gold Meritorious Patron
That works.
The instant I saw I was forcing an incident on a being that did not want it, I became my usual auditor-self delivering auditing "for the pc."
I spent many more hours doing that than auditing Incidents 1 & 2.
OT-3 being bullshit or not, I ended up very pleased with the results. Didn't have nearly a sniffle for 15 years afterward. That would be 15 years of no-auditing at all.
I wonder at the frame of reference. "not nearly a sniffle..." is a strange statement from this end.
Royal Prince Xenu
Trust the Psi Corps.
I would like ONE DAY with "not nearly a sniffle"!
nexus100
Gold Meritorious Patron
Ah, I see from your end it isn't strange, then.
Bas
New Member
Entities that may have been unconscious and completely other determined for quite a long time. Knowledgism, rather than completely freeing these entities, uses help and affinity to bind them into a team and then organizes them for purposes other than what the entity may have decided to do left to their own choices.
No, this is not correct. Knowledgism actually has a different basis for this area and its attendant phenomena - the team are beings that have been causitively and voluntarily with the individual for a great long time - out of CHOICE and common purpose, not happenstance or calamity. Other subjects of metaphysics and spirituality often refer to these as guides or similar names. But, truly, "teammate" is a better descriptor.
"Spiritual Teammates" could also be called subtlety enslaved entities. Yes a nice enslavement, affinity flows and all, but still, not completely free.
Not so. No more enslaved than one's friends or associates. (in a reasonably sane relationship, that is to say) None of them are there due to duress or confusion.
The purpose of developing these teams is the trap of thinking that power and dominion over material life it necessary to "win" the "game".
No, again, not so. The sorts of being that comprise a spiritual team don't give squat about "dominion" over material goodies. Where are you getting this data, just out of curiosity?
It is a trap of not seeing what freedom is, but rather trying to beat a game that is an illusion in the first place.
As Alan has said, there is free from and free to. The first is a compulsive "up the pole" and running away from. Often manifests as an apathy toward (and overwhelm by) the physical universe, masked or veiled by contempt, arrogance, insouciance and the like. This is the specious "OT" state of a good number of Scientologists as well as those in the Freezone.
The latter, free to means you are not backed off or in retreat from a particular game or area, you can enter and play if you want to. And, in its simplicity, that is freedom. At least, the best definition of it I've found yet.
Power, control, sovereignty, are in themselves elements of separation from true freedom.
So being able say, to control your life, or having the power to provide well for your family are somehow undesirable? Sure, at some spiritual levels, those things become irrelevant -- but what about for those who have a purpose for their current and present life, and really want to achieve certain things? They are all screwed in the head, in some fashion, for wanting to achieve things in this "illusion?" I suppose?
Some people actually like having a game to play, can recognize it as a game, and play it with love, passion, purpose and yes, even power. Used the right way -- not for petty domination and subjugation. And there's something inherently wrong, with that -- ?
I did a decade worth of Scientology, and have now done about a decade of Knowledgism. When I walked out of the church, I swore I was done with cults and other groups that seek to enslave in ANY way, for whatever reason.
And so I am. Knowledgism and Scientology may share roots, but they are different subjects in focus, orientation and, most especially, purpose. I can tell you that based on personal experience - not just readings.
No, this is not correct. Knowledgism actually has a different basis for this area and its attendant phenomena - the team are beings that have been causitively and voluntarily with the individual for a great long time - out of CHOICE and common purpose, not happenstance or calamity. Other subjects of metaphysics and spirituality often refer to these as guides or similar names. But, truly, "teammate" is a better descriptor.
"Spiritual Teammates" could also be called subtlety enslaved entities. Yes a nice enslavement, affinity flows and all, but still, not completely free.
Not so. No more enslaved than one's friends or associates. (in a reasonably sane relationship, that is to say) None of them are there due to duress or confusion.
The purpose of developing these teams is the trap of thinking that power and dominion over material life it necessary to "win" the "game".
No, again, not so. The sorts of being that comprise a spiritual team don't give squat about "dominion" over material goodies. Where are you getting this data, just out of curiosity?
It is a trap of not seeing what freedom is, but rather trying to beat a game that is an illusion in the first place.
As Alan has said, there is free from and free to. The first is a compulsive "up the pole" and running away from. Often manifests as an apathy toward (and overwhelm by) the physical universe, masked or veiled by contempt, arrogance, insouciance and the like. This is the specious "OT" state of a good number of Scientologists as well as those in the Freezone.
The latter, free to means you are not backed off or in retreat from a particular game or area, you can enter and play if you want to. And, in its simplicity, that is freedom. At least, the best definition of it I've found yet.
Power, control, sovereignty, are in themselves elements of separation from true freedom.
So being able say, to control your life, or having the power to provide well for your family are somehow undesirable? Sure, at some spiritual levels, those things become irrelevant -- but what about for those who have a purpose for their current and present life, and really want to achieve certain things? They are all screwed in the head, in some fashion, for wanting to achieve things in this "illusion?" I suppose?
Some people actually like having a game to play, can recognize it as a game, and play it with love, passion, purpose and yes, even power. Used the right way -- not for petty domination and subjugation. And there's something inherently wrong, with that -- ?
I did a decade worth of Scientology, and have now done about a decade of Knowledgism. When I walked out of the church, I swore I was done with cults and other groups that seek to enslave in ANY way, for whatever reason.
And so I am. Knowledgism and Scientology may share roots, but they are different subjects in focus, orientation and, most especially, purpose. I can tell you that based on personal experience - not just readings.
degraded being
Sponsor
Entities schmentities.
RolandRB
Rest in Peace
I think the major flaw with it is, like Scientology, it was pulled out of somebody's ass. It's just another magic rattle.
alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you for you response. I appreciate your taking the time to actually read and respond to what I was saying, rather than engaging in the parsing of my motives....
My apologies for the late response, I have been on vacation. (Banned from the board for 2 weeks....)
And I like the black panther Avatar too! Although I think that the black panther mechanism should have a sixth mode, say something along the lines of find a common solution, and placed above the attack mode...
This makes me wonder if you did ot3 while in scientology? And if so, what was your experience of it?
To me it still sounds like "the team" is a composite being...with the attendant possibility of conflicting goals or the subjugation of individual freedom for the good of the team. Of course there is nothing inherently wrong with teaming up with others....but conversely there is nothing wrong with having ones own universe, completely under ones own determinism. Something that seems to be less liklely for the various teammates...
Sure but with friends and associates, compromises are part of the relation ship. I believe one should have some element of uncompromised person universe. And all the attachments or connections to others should be wholly in the present and not based on unexamined past. Frequently friends and associates are simply the people happenstance has placed you in with.
I get this impression from reading the works of Alan Walter, and from his website, where the emphasis seems to be on becoming powerful in the material realm.
http://www.knowledgism.com/MasteringTheGamesOfLife/
"I have been in so much power lately!!
My sales are soaring!!
I can handle objections way better than ever before!!
I have more coaching clients now than I've had in the last 3 yrs!!
I'm handling what has stopped me in the past so that I don't recreate it in the future.
I know you want business to increase.
I know you want fantastic relationships.
I know you want to hold a better position in being who you are."
"MASTERY: n. 1. The consummate skill or knowledge of a master. 2. The status of a master or ruler; dominion; control: master of the seas. 3. Full command of some subject of study: a poet's mastery of the language."
The tone given of by knowledgism materials is that of winning the game of life in material terms.
Knowledgism is marketed at business people, executives and such as a means of furthering thier success in life, rather than as a spiritual endevour.
There is nothing wrong with that, but it is my belief that there are larger games as well, scientology address that, and knowledgism seems to miss it.
True enough. Yes the physical universe IS a form of case. But I dont think it is a game that can be won, but rather a set of self created experiences that need to be understood.
My point is more at the notion that power, control etc can be a trap if viewed as the goal. No it is not undesireable to be able to have power and control, but it is unhealthy to desire it as an end.
Of course not. But some people cant see it as a game, lower on the scale it would be duty, obligation, sujugation, slavery etc.....just how and why did all the "teammates" become connected to you or others? How self determined was it? Would they have chosen it in different circumstances? what would they do if suddenly left to their own devices?
The church is not a good example of scientology. The purpose of scientology is to regain knowledge of self and of others. Hubbard, I believe, also had a personal purpose, expressed through his subject of breaking out of the material game and getting back to a more spiritually oriented one. Obviously only achieved by a few....
It seems to me that knowledgism wants to win the material game as a stepping stone up, but I believe this to be misguided. If you cannot walk away from the material game, but have to win it, you are trapped.
I would be very interested in your comments on knowledgisms focus and orientation, and on the point of the ability to freely be in or out of the material game. You personal experiences too, would be interesting.
My apologies for the late response, I have been on vacation. (Banned from the board for 2 weeks....)
And I like the black panther Avatar too! Although I think that the black panther mechanism should have a sixth mode, say something along the lines of find a common solution, and placed above the attack mode...
This makes me wonder if you did ot3 while in scientology? And if so, what was your experience of it?
To me it still sounds like "the team" is a composite being...with the attendant possibility of conflicting goals or the subjugation of individual freedom for the good of the team. Of course there is nothing inherently wrong with teaming up with others....but conversely there is nothing wrong with having ones own universe, completely under ones own determinism. Something that seems to be less liklely for the various teammates...
Sure but with friends and associates, compromises are part of the relation ship. I believe one should have some element of uncompromised person universe. And all the attachments or connections to others should be wholly in the present and not based on unexamined past. Frequently friends and associates are simply the people happenstance has placed you in with.
I get this impression from reading the works of Alan Walter, and from his website, where the emphasis seems to be on becoming powerful in the material realm.
http://www.knowledgism.com/MasteringTheGamesOfLife/
"I have been in so much power lately!!
My sales are soaring!!
I can handle objections way better than ever before!!
I have more coaching clients now than I've had in the last 3 yrs!!
I'm handling what has stopped me in the past so that I don't recreate it in the future.
I know you want business to increase.
I know you want fantastic relationships.
I know you want to hold a better position in being who you are."
"MASTERY: n. 1. The consummate skill or knowledge of a master. 2. The status of a master or ruler; dominion; control: master of the seas. 3. Full command of some subject of study: a poet's mastery of the language."
The tone given of by knowledgism materials is that of winning the game of life in material terms.
Knowledgism is marketed at business people, executives and such as a means of furthering thier success in life, rather than as a spiritual endevour.
There is nothing wrong with that, but it is my belief that there are larger games as well, scientology address that, and knowledgism seems to miss it.
True enough. Yes the physical universe IS a form of case. But I dont think it is a game that can be won, but rather a set of self created experiences that need to be understood.
My point is more at the notion that power, control etc can be a trap if viewed as the goal. No it is not undesireable to be able to have power and control, but it is unhealthy to desire it as an end.
Of course not. But some people cant see it as a game, lower on the scale it would be duty, obligation, sujugation, slavery etc.....just how and why did all the "teammates" become connected to you or others? How self determined was it? Would they have chosen it in different circumstances? what would they do if suddenly left to their own devices?
The church is not a good example of scientology. The purpose of scientology is to regain knowledge of self and of others. Hubbard, I believe, also had a personal purpose, expressed through his subject of breaking out of the material game and getting back to a more spiritually oriented one. Obviously only achieved by a few....
It seems to me that knowledgism wants to win the material game as a stepping stone up, but I believe this to be misguided. If you cannot walk away from the material game, but have to win it, you are trapped.
I would be very interested in your comments on knowledgisms focus and orientation, and on the point of the ability to freely be in or out of the material game. You personal experiences too, would be interesting.
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alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
This begs the question: So now that you are a knowledgist, and "got rid of" so many teammates on ot3 and ot7, have you/will you go back and repair the severed connections?
(and maybe also, why does a person need all those spiritual guides and teammates in the first place....who or what are you trying to overwhelm or team up against?)
nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
Without particularly taking sides in this Scn versus Kn debate about "entities"/"team mates" or whatever you call them, I suggest that you are right in the sense that a "team mate" may have taken up that relationship on the basis of a common goal which was, never the less, not a properly inspected, rationally chosen goal.
But, in which case, who needs sorting out on such a matter? You? The entity? Or both? And would it necessarily be the case that the entity wanted to - er - leave your team if you did get 'both of your heads straight'?
Nick