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The Mayo Challenge

Gottabrain said:
:thumbsup::clap: Great post, Candy. Thank you for your integrity and courage facing these things and for coming through them all to tell others about it honestly.
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Gottabrain, Purple Rain is not Purple Haze (Candy). They're both Purple but are very different people. You've protested at AOSH ANZO with Purple Rain. You're right about one thing though, that Purple Rain post was EXCELLENT! :thumbsup:
 
TheRealNoUser said:
Upon running the auditing command "feel my finger" I felt a strange sensation. The room slowly started to get brighter, and I could see the auditor struggling with the TA on the E-Meter. Suddenly the edges of the E-Meter were melting and the auditor was laughing along with me. The walls of the room completely disappeared and I was in an infinite space holding a pair of soup cans. I glugged down the soup quickly, thinking it might be my last meal ever and started to glide forward.

I quickly got bored with the infinite space thing, and was then rushing thru stars, planets, and space on an incredible journey of self-awakening. Then things started slowing down and get darker - with only stars visible - until I was completely stuck in something. I felt like I was in some kind of chair - like a racing seat, but facing the wrong way. My face was stuck. I pulled back and my face plopped out of this gelatine-like substance shaped like a ball.

My God ! I had exited the physical universe !! "That's all it is?", I thought to myself.

I was surrounded by people who were all my previous incarnations, and I then realized that I was actually Xenu, and remembered where I had stashed all the spare nukes from back in the old days. "I'm going back in" - I thought, and stuck my face back in the jello-universe-ball-thing. Everything went black.

The next thing I knew I woke up in an all-night Denny's with my face in a bowl of custard with two cops standing over me. "I'm Clear !" I shouted. "I'm O.T. - and I'm Xenu !!".

The whole room broke into applause, and the cops hauled me off to the lunatic asylum. The Examiner sat me down and said "pick up the cans .... your TA is floating. Thank you."

Then I joined this B.B.S. and started this thread.

Sound familiar?
No.
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Nice to be here

Gottabrain said:
Hi Julie!! :hattip: Love your posts. I've just been catching up on reading them and haven't yet had a chance to welcome you to the Board.

So please accept a belated WELCOME TO ESMB from me!! :party:

Thanks for being here and posting. You have so many worthwhile observations and insights, it's wonderful to see your contributions. :blowkiss:
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Thank you very much for the welcome. :)
 
Communication

Petey C said:
Good post, Jules. Interesting stuff about whether to say something you suspected or not.

When I was in Scientology my idea was that I should "confront" and also "communicate". So I did. This made me a pain in the ass while I was in, but it was worse when I was out. The world I had to live in was much more discerning, or maybe reticent, about communication. Well, I learned the hard way to keep my powder dry and not vomit communication all over the place just because it was there and I could. (Sorry to mix metaphors.)

Some of the Scn concepts go so deep that they're hard to pull out by the roots, and while the analysis of the communication cycle has lots of truth, I think the idea that we gotta be confronting and communicating everything is flawed. I think personal integrity is more important, and sometimes keeping your own counsel is a good thing.

And I acknowledge it takes courage for you guys to post under your own name.

Peggy
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Thanks, Peggy. All good points. Sometimes it is good to "hold forth" and sometimes it is better to "hold your tongue". I'm working on all the above.

Thanks for calling me by my favorite nickname, too.
 
Duck, when needed

Boojuum said:
Amen!!! Julie.

I've met a number of old friends and have shared a great many fun memories because of this board. I also use the board to vent about the various things about cos that I didn't like. I feel, and perhaps I share this emotion with many others here, that reading the stories and opinions of others on this board help to explain the rich experience of Scientology. The Scieno experience defies description. It's not like the years you spent in the armed services or in college.

You're in for a treat, but keep in mind, it's a rough crowd and you'll continue to be challenged with tough questions and accusations.

I've enjoyed your posts and look forward to reading more.

Glad to see you here!
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Thanks. Yes, it will be an interesting adventure. I think I've learned some valuable lessons already.
 
David Mayo said:
I acknowledge that you are right in that I worked in a cult that was destructive in some ways but I don't agree that it was only destructive. It was also constructive in some ways. While it is true that I worked in it, it is not true that I 'helped create the cult ...' But tell me how you think I may have done that? and what you think I should have done?

I am willing to listen to what you have to say. And I may learn from it.

David
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I think David and Julie Mayo win here, if only for the class with which they have conducted themselves in this thread.

I also suspect that the OP has overlooked the effect of group-think on an individual. Here are two rather famous incidents in which those effects are very salient:

The Zimbardo Experiment. This is the reason we now have the Institutional Review Board. In this experiment, a group of Stanford students were selected to play as either prisoners or prison guards in the basement of one of the campus buildings. The results were that the 'guard' students eventually assumed their roles with a vigor that would put a method actor to shame, culminating in the abuse and even torture of some of the prisoners.

The Milgram Experiment. In this experiment, the subjects were instructed by an authority figure in a lab coat to administer electric shocks of varying intensity to another individual. The person allegedly receiving the shocks was, in reality, a confederate, and would fake the appropriate pain responses. The results of this experiment have been consistently repeated since the 60s, with the subject acting against his or her conscience and moral sense and administering what they thought were very high voltages. (Of note here, the experiment begins with a questionaire to the subject, asking him to predict his behavior).

The point here is not to absolve the actions of a particular individual. If David Mayo's actions lead to undesireable outcomes (and they certainly appear to have) then one can meaningfully say that those were wrong actions.

Rather, the point is to make explicit that what we should be evaluating are actions, not the character of people performing those actions, except insofar as such an evaluation of character allows us to make predictions on that person's future behavior. In the case of Scn, or the above-linked examples, evaluating character as a clue to future behaviors is pretty damn untenable.

I think these cases demonstrate how particular situations seem to 'activate' or 'co-opt' very deep behavioral mechanisms in certain ways, mechanisms we all possess, and it is these particular kinds of scenarios that are properly the target of our attention and scorn.
 
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TRNU,

Am I to assume that your last couple posts are your final “answers” to my questions? Or, am I being presumptuous and you are going to answer yes or no, where applicable, and proffer your Agenda—as I have mine to you—for open Dialogue?

I look forward to an actual response, as opposed to a deflective narrative.:coolwink:

Peace.

Face:)
 
Hi!

I'm a day late and a dollar short to this thread.

Welcome David and Julie.

I haven't been paying much attention lately, but I'm overjoyed that you are here.

My name is Ed Berwick of Los Altos, Capitola, and Carmel Valley, California. My wife is the former Teri Spickler. We were married by Sarge Gerbode in the mid 1970s. Sarge was on my HSDc in the early 1970s. Teri audited him extensively. He is god father to one of our kids. I was "in" from 1968 through 1976. In that time I got through OT3 and the briefing course. I worked in some centers and started, what is now, the Los Gatos Org in my living room. I left for two major reasons: the tech was veering toward cookie cutter processing (one size fits all) and the focus of the organization had shifted from help to greed.

As far as I can see, we are all victims and abusers / creators of the cult. I walked away quietly. I upset a friend or two because of that, but I chose not to rock the boat for most of my friends. Most of them were gone by 1982 anyway. I still have friends in the Sea Org, and I am in no way, apologizing for their choice(s).

While writing this, I am listening to the Giants / Pirates game. Earlier, I was auditing someone over the telephone for pay.

I got a great deal from Scientology. I was born in 1950, and was 17 when I connected with it. I was 25 when I left. As a 20 year old, I went Clear. That, alone is something that I could or would never not do. I changed my life with that (grade 6 and the CC) auditing. I have never looked back.

I don't think we've ever met. I've probably seen you in passing. So much for sweetness and light. I feel like Barbara Walters talking to Dean Rusk.

It seems to me, from my vantage point of the 1970s (forty years ago), safe in the field (not even the Org sphere), that LRH was off his trolley. I left with my goodie bag of amazing tech and enhanced self.

Around 1981 (?), Alan Walter attempted a coup, and was given the boot permanently. The mission holders zap fest caused an exodus of thousands or tens of thousands. The writing was on the wall. Rocky Stump, John McMaster and Jack Horner. Reg Sharpe. The Kemps. The list just goes on and on.

It seems to me, from my vantage point of 1976, that to survive close to LRH in the system was to be a "yes man."

The system was the culture. The culture was domination / subjugation. Take a look at so many of the walking wounded, who have left or who have stayed.

I would suggest to you, David, that you created the cult, in your kow towing to the system and culture. You were not as mean as DM, but your affinity and understanding held as many people (based on the cheese effect) than fear from DM's quarter.

I would further suggest that individuals such as Wing and Smokey Angel, Yvonne Gillham, John McMaster, Allan and Virginia Kapular, the Kemps, Jack Horner, Alan Walter, Phil Spickler, Snooky Weiss, James Hare, and so many more founding scientologists were part of an independent and individual responsibility streak that was completely crushed within the walls of corporate scientology by 1982.

The clue train had left the station. I think you missed it. I think, once you figured it all out, that you more than made up for your ill fated (earlier) choices.
 
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To the real no user

Rather crude and rude, don't you think? Considering David was removed bodily and forcefully and was not permitted to bring possessions with him, how exactly is he supposed to still have that memo 25 years later? Give me a break. You think the take-over-crew with their power grab was going to leave that around for anyone to find?:omg:
 
afaceinthecrowd asked some questions....

Q,Q,Q etc.
A. Any personal info I will not divulge. The CoS has ways of data-profiling to narrow down identities. They will seek revenge.

Q. What is your agenda for ESMB?
A. I don't have an agenda for ESMB. I have one for Scientology. Gone.

Q. Opinions.
A. I read many opinions. Some are useful, some are not.

Q. Characterizations.
A. I don't know who specifically you are referring. If it's this thread then it's obvious. Mayo, Rinder, Rathbun, Miscavige.

Q. Immediately Answers.
A. They can do what they like. Take as long as they like. I have no control over that, but I can express my opinion. My anger was vented because one of the people who directly created Scientology appeared on this forum. That's like the drug-dealer who sold the drugs that killed your child turning up at a therapy meeting. I got angry.
 
TheRealNoUser said:
Upon running the auditing command "feel my finger" I felt a strange sensation. The room slowly started to get brighter, and I could see the auditor struggling with the TA on the E-Meter. Suddenly the edges of the E-Meter were melting and the auditor was laughing along with me. The walls of the room completely disappeared and I was in an infinite space holding a pair of soup cans. I glugged down the soup quickly, thinking it might be my last meal ever and started to glide forward.

I quickly got bored with the infinite space thing, and was then rushing thru stars, planets, and space on an incredible journey of self-awakening. Then things started slowing down and get darker - with only stars visible - until I was completely stuck in something. I felt like I was in some kind of chair - like a racing seat, but facing the wrong way. My face was stuck. I pulled back and my face plopped out of this gelatine-like substance shaped like a ball.

My God ! I had exited the physical universe !! "That's all it is?", I thought to myself.

I was surrounded by people who were all my previous incarnations, and I then realized that I was actually Xenu, and remembered where I had stashed all the spare nukes from back in the old days. "I'm going back in" - I thought, and stuck my face back in the jello-universe-ball-thing. Everything went black.

The next thing I knew I woke up in an all-night Denny's with my face in a bowl of custard with two cops standing over me. "I'm Clear !" I shouted. "I'm O.T. - and I'm Xenu !!".

The whole room broke into applause, and the cops hauled me off to the lunatic asylum. The Examiner sat me down and said "pick up the cans .... your TA is floating. Thank you."

Then I joined this B.B.S. and started this thread.

Sound familiar?
Click to expand...

It's pretty obvious that you're making this up.

And by the way, touch assists are done off the meter.

So what's the deal?
 
TheRealNoUser said:
afaceinthecrowd asked some questions....

Q,Q,Q etc.
A. Any personal info I will not divulge. The CoS has ways of data-profiling to narrow down identities. They will seek revenge.

Q. What is your agenda for ESMB?
A. I don't have an agenda for ESMB. I have one for Scientology. Gone.

Q. Opinions.
A. I read many opinions. Some are useful, some are not.

Q. Characterizations.
A. I don't know who specifically you are referring. If it's this thread then it's obvious. Mayo, Rinder, Rathbun, Miscavige.

Q. Immediately Answers.
A. They can do what they like. Take as long as they like. I have no control over that, but I can express my opinion. My anger was vented because one of the people who directly created Scientology appeared on this forum. That's like the drug-dealer who sold the drugs that killed your child turning up at a therapy meeting. I got angry.
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You were allowed to (get angry) ... I feel some of what you feel but David Mayo is not the correct person to vent it on.

Tubs is the creator of the cult and the dwarf is continuing to make it what it is, vent at them.

David Mayo was tek personnel in the main, and though I agree with you 100% that the tek is rubbish that in itself isn't a good reason to go after him now, he is in agreement with you (as much as he can be!).

Most of us did things in the cult that we wish we hadn't, please don't try to demonize the Mayo's for being here now.

Let them relax and settle in.

:yes:
 
CarmeloOrchards said:
-snip-

The writing was on the wall. Rocky Stump, John McMaster and Jack Horner. Reg Sharpe. The Kemps. The list just goes on and on.

-snip-
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Rocky Stump, if I recall correctly, was declared SP around 1972, John McMaster in 1969, Reg Sharpe around 1968, Jack Horner in 1965. "The writing was on the wall" before you joined Scientology, and before I joined it too.

A brief history of leaving Scientology: http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=442364&postcount=37

Martin Samuels (whose Missions brought thousands of people into Scientology) reflects, after leaving Scientology:

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=487819&postcount=63
 
Veda said:
Rocky Stump, if I recall correctly, was declared SP around 1972, John McMaster in 1969, Jack Horner in 1965. "The writing was on the wall" before you joined Scientology, and before I joined it too.
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All the more reason for each individual to move rapidly towards the exit when it became no longer fun, in effect leaving at the top after achieving their own goals. Carmelo managed to do this. :clap:

Nor was he the only one. :no:


Mark A. Baker
 
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