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The State of Clear

I've yet to see any evidence or proof that Scientology can produce any results more substantial than PC feels good, and has a floating needle or TA.

Waiting...
Results are in the eye of the beholder. I have seen results such as "person no longer engaging in destructive actions" for example. There are probably hundreds of Exes here on ESMB who have achieved things they value (results) from scientology. They possibly prefer not to admit it or have these things ridiculed or questioned.
 
How could such a theory be proven in regard to auditing? Given the subjective nature of the experience of auditing, surely it is dubious conjecture at best?

For example: how could a specific auditing session 'with an emeter' be reproduced or duplicated, 'without an emeter'? Impossible. The form and event would necessarily be different. Only the 'place' might remain exactly as it was.

Perhaps you are aware of some logistics that have escaped us in regard to the demonstration of the accuracy of your bold assertions above (pardon the pun). Of the objective nature of course. Else wise your theory, while interesting, is completely void of substance.

Apocalyptic

You are flat wrong! That theory has substance! Considerable substance!

BS has substance! BS has weight ! And it is damn sure visible!

Please! Retract having said that much BS has no substance - can't you see it is filling some entire posts?
 
I've yet to see any evidence or proof that Scientology can produce any results more substantial than PC feels good, and has a floating needle or TA.

Waiting...

And just what use is a "floating" needle? WTF does it prove? Tell me again. I forgot. Worthless rheostat as far as I am concerned. (That would be a device that increases/decreases current flow) Come to think of it, why would we want to subject our body to such stuff? Oh, I know. So that after very long term use we have the sensation of "Body Thetans." Skin crawling from too much exposure. Oh, even worse, that is a symptom of kidney failure. This just gets worse and worse the more I think about it.
 
Results are in the eye of the beholder. I have seen results such as "person no longer engaging in destructive actions" for example. There are probably hundreds of Exes here on ESMB who have achieved things they value (results) from scientology. They possibly prefer not to admit it or have these things ridiculed or questioned.

"Results are in the eye of the beholder" not withstanding that is the weakest explanation I have evr seen put forth and it honest to God makes me laugh that anyone ( parrticularly someone I have respected ) would say such a thing.

Nevermind. Gathered here and reading here are people who most likely represent the bulk of technical training in and of scientology that exists today. So let me ask the technical experts here...Class VIII, Class IX, all the way to Class XII and the CSs can any of you show me the reference that says the PC alone determines the case state achieved?

What this persons post says that it is up to the PC to say what they have achieved.
In the terms of scientology technology is that true?Only the PC has the say
Did I miss that? The CS has no say? The tech has no say? Only the PC has the say?

No wonder so many are "clear". All these years I thought it was a state to be achieved and here I find out if the PC says it then it is true.

Oh boy.

No wonder they don't want questioned !
 
Results are in the eye of the beholder. I have seen results such as "person no longer engaging in destructive actions" for example. There are probably hundreds of Exes here on ESMB who have achieved things they value (results) from scientology. They possibly prefer not to admit it or have these things ridiculed or questioned.

Fair enough (to a point). What however, is the distinction between scientology and dianetics Panda? That is the question that cuts to the chase.

Sure, dianetics (absent the hyperbole) is/could be psychologically beneficial to a huge portion of nearly any given literate population. Having someone inquire into and then listen to ones deepest (and often forgotten) painful experiences is a fundamental tenant of psychological/mental/emotional healing, 101. Been happening for thousands of years, in various forms.

But the question is one of scientology. Which supposedly was 'a child' of dianetics (uh, um, cough, that is to say, of Rons Research into, and the results of, dianetics) which somehow or other became the 'parent' of dianetics. Clever wordsmith that Ron fella was.

Setting dianetics aside then, for the moment, and revisiting the question (what has scientology actually done for any individual) 'what has' scientology actually done for any individual? That you know of. Including yourself of course.

You mention the wins of numerous individuals, as in for example, individuals no longer engaging in destructive actions. So what part of scientology (absent dianetic auditing) accomplished that?

Was it: reading the way to happiness ?
Was it: doing the purification rundown ?
Was it: eliminating a certain number of body thetans?
Was it: realizing that Xenu was the source of all their (and all human) ailments?
Was it: learning how to know how to know?
Was it: experiencing disconnection from a loved one?
Was it: believing that Ron was Buddha?

Seriously Panda, these are all post dianetic additives yes?

We respect your intelligence and sincerity. And most of all your willingness to look and respond employing both of those attributes you possess.

Help us out here. What has/does scientology do (of value) for an individual, absent dianetic auditing?

Apocalyptic

governments and peoples all over the world are honestly wanting (and waiting) to know.
 
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How could such a theory be proven in regard to auditing? Given the subjective nature of the experience of auditing, surely it is dubious conjecture at best?

Well, first and most importantly, you will notice I haven't proposed any such tests. My comments serve simply to point out that an hypothesis which purports to 'explain' all the supposed benefits of auditing occur as a result of electrical current flow is fundamentally flawed and non-sustainable. Or, in other words, pure bunk.


... For example: how could a specific auditing session 'with an emeter' be reproduced or duplicated, 'without an emeter'? Impossible. The form and event would necessarily be different. Only the 'place' might remain exactly as it was. ...

Any such results are innately subjective. As with any proposed formal 'testing' procedure in a 'soft' subject, i.e. one highly dependent on subjective factors (e.g. psychology, sociology, etc.) or non-repeatable data. [Interesting note: this years Nobel in Economics was awarded to researchers doing work on data interpretation in such an environment.] Many aspects of human experience simply do not lend themselves to direct measurement. :yes:

Generally the best approach to testing in such an environment is to run multiple different tests against a variety of different subjects, allowing for both the conditions being tested as well as an independent group to serve as a control for 'baseline' data.

In this instance, create three groups of subjects; one group (group 1) to experience auditing on a meter, a second group (group 2) to experience auditing off the meter, and a third group (guess) to experience some neutral activity who are to serve as the 'control' for the experiment. Since this last group serves as a data control they must NOT be subjected to auditing, meditation, or any other process or practice intended to produce introspection. Run the same basic processes on the first two groups and check results across all three groups for any noticeable statistical differences.

I know of no such experiments which have ever been formally undertaken. :no:

HOWEVER, most of the experienced auditors I have known and who had a reputation for getting positive results have audited many individuals both with and without the use of a meter. As such, along with other similarly experienced auditors, they constitute an informal data pool with a lot of experience with regard to the results which can reasonably be expected from auditing. The accounts of such experiences conform to there being no difference in results arising from the use of a meter. Admittedly, these are experienced practitioners who know something of the art of auditing.

The quality & experience level of the auditor also makes for a substantial difference in the results occurring in a session. A poor auditor who relies excessively on his meter is a positive liability as his attention tends to be on the meter not the pc. That same poor auditor, although lacking in basic skills, still may well do marginally better for his pc without the meter as a distraction.

An experienced auditor also who ignores the pc in favor of too much attention to the meter will also get a generally poorer result. The best auditors are well aware of this. Accordingly they treat their meters as auxillary aids not as the primary focus of the session.

Auditing is intended to be for the pc. It does not do to leave them in a state where they may instead be wondering what the auditor is doing rather than using session time to address their own issues.

Thus, for a person considering being audited, the smart move is to find a good & experienced auditor with whom that individual is comfortable working. The use of an emeter is immaterial.


Mark A. Baker
 
We were I in a frame of mind to consider the workability ( barf) of the technology of scientology and some sampling of processes....

One, although I used one for thousands of hours I really doubt an emeter added much, if anything to a session.

I'd argue an auditor worth his salt could L & N as well without a meter as with a meter. Why? Simple. Audit the PC.

What about all the wonderful process we used to run from CREB ?
Every take a PC out for a walk and try " Notice something just for fun "?
And so many many others.

Well, how scientological was that? Ron come up with it? Ron steal from God knows where? ( OK, some still believe Ron invented the emeter...keep hold of that one, too).

How much of this "workability" was the auditor being there, listening, caring, intending to do good? ( Like most any therapy ).

Ron did not give the world the Holy Grail with dianetics or scientology.

So, yes , me - and any other half wit - can pick the right outdoor process and run it and most likely make someone feel a little better. Well, Glory to Ron!

Nevermind there are many ( infinitely ) faster, many better, and almost all infinitely cheaper than scientology ways for a person to " get gains" and frequently deeper and longer lasting than scientology ever could or has.

And all that without joining a cult.

So, boys, what is the big deal with this "All Hail Hubbard" and his expensive slow boat to China that hasn't made jack shit in 60 years?

I'm just curious.
 
...
And all that without joining a cult.

So, boys, what is the big deal with this "All Hail Hubbard" and his expensive slow boat to China that hasn't made jack shit in 60 years?

I'm just curious.

No one participating in the discussion on this thread of any potential results which might be had from auditing or the possible effects of an emeter in auditing is an advocate of either 'joining a cult' or 'hailing hubbard'. Accordingly you might want to consider addressing such remarks on MR's blog or somewhere similar where such a contrasting viewpoint might be more likely to be found. There isn't much fundamental disagreement on those points here.


Mark A. Baker
 
Fair enough (to a point). What however, is the distinction between scientology and dianetics Panda? That is the question that cuts to the chase.
<snip fpr brevity>
Help us out here. What has/does scientology do (of value) for an individual, absent dianetic auditing?

Apocalyptic

governments and peoples all over the world are honestly wanting (and waiting) to know.
I'm not really sure what you're asking for here but I'll try to answer what I think it is.

I have seen and experienced tangible results from almost every aspect of Dianetics and Scientology. I've known people who have (apparently) changed for the better through the use of Dianetics, Grades Processes, Objectives, Sec Checks, OT Levels etc.

I'm not claiming that the results are uniform, they aren't. As a matter of fact, there is a strict Standard Tech (scientology loves capitalisation of important words) admonition against "auditing for results". I can't be bothered digging that one up but the point is that the quality of auditing is to be judged by how Standard it is rather than by the results achieved.

To claim that dianetics and scientology achieve absolutely nothing for anyone seems, to me, to be much less believable than to claim it might possibly achieve something for some people.
 
"Results are in the eye of the beholder" not withstanding that is the weakest explanation I have evr seen put forth and it honest to God makes me laugh that anyone ( parrticularly someone I have respected ) would say such a thing.

Nevermind. Gathered here and reading here are people who most likely represent the bulk of technical training in and of scientology that exists today. So let me ask the technical experts here...Class VIII, Class IX, all the way to Class XII and the CSs can any of you show me the reference that says the PC alone determines the case state achieved?

What this persons post says that it is up to the PC to say what they have achieved.
In the terms of scientology technology is that true?Only the PC has the say
Did I miss that? The CS has no say? The tech has no say? Only the PC has the say?

No wonder so many are "clear". All these years I thought it was a state to be achieved and here I find out if the PC says it then it is true.

Oh boy.

No wonder they don't want questioned !
This is pure strawman argument, Toad. You've misunderstood (deliberately or otherwise) what I meant by "in the eye of the beholder" and gone on to argue the strawman point. I have not said anything about PCs determining state of case, that's your own invention.

FYI, the "beholder" might, indeed, be the PC himself or it might just as easily be a spouse, boss, friend, family member, fellow worker, etc. anyone, in fact, who beholds another and is able to see what he's looking at.

I've known instances where two separate beholders had completely contrary opinions about the same result. Thus, just like Beauty, Results are in the eye of the beholder.
 
I'm not really sure what you're asking for here but I'll try to answer what I think it is.

I have seen and experienced tangible results from almost every aspect of Dianetics and Scientology. I've known people who have (apparently) changed for the better through the use of Dianetics, Grades Processes, Objectives, Sec Checks, OT Levels etc.

I'm not claiming that the results are uniform, they aren't. As a matter of fact, there is a strict Standard Tech (scientology loves capitalisation of important words) admonition against "auditing for results". I can't be bothered digging that one up but the point is that the quality of auditing is to be judged by how Standard it is rather than by the results achieved.

To claim that dianetics and scientology achieve absolutely nothing for anyone seems, to me, to be much less believable than to claim it might possibly achieve something for some people.

To the part I made bold, above - just let me add this.

"The losers cry Deal! Deal! ...while the winners pick their teeth." :yes:

And so it goes...

EP
 
snip
To claim that dianetics and scientology achieve absolutely nothing for anyone seems, to me, to be much less believable than to claim it might possibly achieve something for some people.

I think the key word here is achieve. Achieve has connotaions of accomplishment and accomplishment implies some kind of improvement.

I don't deny that Scientology changes a person and their outlook on life. It has some effect.

But are they improvements?

I tend to think that the wins and cognitions are just incremental steps in a person's indoctrination towards a monoideaistic viewpoint.

By that I mean that the person's outlook becomes narrower and is narrowly refocusted to linear thinking and exclusion of more and more exterior things in their life.

In other words, they introvert into their own thoughts, while losing touch with the rest of life, and all with a smile on their face.

I just today heard a win a new OTVII gave where they said they were able to stop a revolution in some other country (while at Flag)

I'm sure that kind of belief in one's abilities makes the person appear self-confident and in control, and the person probably feels wonderful.

But is that real?

It sounds more like self-denial and living a life of fantasy.

I had another OT tell me that they were able to handle all the mental forces on earth and then the person tripped on the stairs. No joke, it really happened.

Neither the apparent change in a person observed by others nor the subjectively felt improvement a person has means they are better. It just means they are different.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
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Well I accept that you have experienced what you say you have, but it's problematic from a Scientology point of view, because it doesn't fit tidily into any of the Scientology definitions. The other problem I see is that what you describe is something that can be experienced to varying degrees whereas 'Clear' is an absolute state. You either are or you aren't 'Clear'.

I'm curious as to why you use the term 'Clear' when you no longer describe yourself as a Scientologist and no longer recommend Scientology to people. The fact that you don't see 'Clear' as having uniform attributes is also very significant. Interesting.

It's too late at night for me to read your other thread, but I'll read it tomorrow.

Thanks for your reply.

There are 57 at least definitions of Clear.

Clearly an area that has been difficult to assess and define.

That individuals have different views on what that is in relation to themselves is
really to be expected. There would be many areas that perhaps fall into
the category of " Hidden standards". Which can be I submit a misnomer.

" Now I can communicate to anyone".

" Now I don't have to beat the cat."

" Now I can examine all things without external influence."

And so on.

Also clear is not nessesarily stable and can be an ability attained on a gradient.

No wonder its been a bugger to address properly!

Personally I suspect its not an absolute.

However Panda's comment that its about being at cause over one's mind is
I believe the best generalisation.

Also note per tech that being clear does not mean one can't go PTS. No doubt one is less likely to do so.

I think its only a comment that one can now gain on OT levels. And I believe that is way far from being an absolute.
 
I'm not really sure what you're asking for here but I'll try to answer what I think it is.

I have seen and experienced tangible results from almost every aspect of Dianetics and Scientology. I've known people who have (apparently) changed for the better through the use of Dianetics, Grades Processes, Objectives, Sec Checks, OT Levels etc.

I'm not claiming that the results are uniform, they aren't. As a matter of fact, there is a strict Standard Tech (scientology loves capitalisation of important words) admonition against "auditing for results". I can't be bothered digging that one up but the point is that the quality of auditing is to be judged by how Standard it is rather than by the results achieved.

To claim that dianetics and scientology achieve absolutely nothing for anyone seems, to me, to be much less believable than to claim it might possibly achieve something for some people.

Got it.

Apocalyptic

Thank you Panda.

we appreciate your being & your presence (& your words).
 
Personally I suspect its not an absolute.

The concept of clear the word overall is an absolute,an attainment, possibly why there are a complexity of 57 responses from the 'all knowing tech dictation manual'

Hubbard calls it refining, rearranging over time, but its deranged into a complexity.
 
After reading all the posts on this thread I can't help but be amazed as to how much can be said about a purely fictional state which was, in fact, beguiled upon us by a known fiction writer and more importantly A LIAR! :hysterical:
 
As an outsider who has been observing Scientology on the internet for a couple of years now, my impression is that there are two aspects of 'clear' that are probably real.

1)
If a person is serious about trying to solve certain problems in their life, there's a decent chance that they'll succeed in doing so, at least to a fair degree. If the person is talented or has other basic long-term advantages, and they've mainly been suffering from short-term bad luck, then the odds of their success are quite high. Practically anything can be the apparent cause of this success, if it gives such a person the confidence to try hard to succeed. So for some people, it can seem as though Scientology has really turned their lives around. For most of those people, almost anything else could also have turned their lives around, because what really turned their lives around was their own efforts.

On the other hand, they probably did need something to trigger those efforts, by giving them hope and encouragement. Insofar as Scientology may have done that triggering, that's a real merit in Scientology. It's just not any kind of evidence that Scientology really works, beyond giving hope and encouragement. The basic truth is that it's not very hard to make the able more able, because the able tend to get more able on their own, anyway, because that's what being able is all about.

2)
There seems to be an 'auditing high' — the feeling/mental state of being 'blown out'. It might be partly assisted by e-meter electric currents, though this is debatable, and the e-meter is clearly not a necessary element. The auditing high is probably related somehow to hypnosis, though it's not really an adequate explanation to say simply that auditing is hypnosis, because nobody really knows exactly what hypnosis is.

Some people are more or less susceptible to hypnosis; or, since hypnosis can sometimes be a great thing, we might say that some people are more talented at achieving a hypnotic state. In a similar way some people are probably more able than others to attain the 'blown out' auditing high. Some people are also talented hypnotists, especially if they have a lot of training and experience in hypnotism; and in the same way, some people are probably better at inducing the auditing high, if they have talent, and training and experience as an auditor.

All these individual variations make it hard to study auditing effects rigorously, just as it is hard to study hypnosis. All the efforts I've seen towards critically assessing auditing have aimed at determining whether or not it produces the tremendous results promised by Hubbard. I'm not aware of any serious studies directed simply at determining what the auditing high is like, and how it works. Hubbard's theoretical explanations, in terms of engrams and charge and what-not, are almost certainly complete nonsense. But there seems to be a real effect there, whose real explanation is probably interesting, though probably not all that important, because it probably has nothing to do with making objective progress towards any great goal.

In itself the auditing high sounds to me as though it's harmless and pleasant, like a drink or (I suppose) a joint. It might sometimes even have spiritual effects, if it calmed you down enough at just the right time to let some insight get through to you. Like anything else, though, I think it becomes spiritually dangerous if you try to make it more than it is. Drugs and alcohol and sex and extreme sports and everything else that feels great for a while just don't have the legs to provide meaning for life. The problem with doctrinaire Scientology is that it's trying to turn a limited, short-term good feeling into a road to eternal salvation. Twenty minutes of auditing can make you feel great, apparently, but twenty years of auditing will not make you a god — or anything noticeably more than an average human being, for that matter.
 
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