The Upper Levels Don't Work

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

STOP! There is nothing to debate
Hubbard was a pulp fiction writer - that is all he ever was
His only accomplishment was figuring out he could make more money selling his (poor) science fiction as a religious story than as a penny per word science fiction story, and he had the lack of conscience and morals to do so.
It was the 60's and 70's and people were stoned and stupid and fell for it
Jeez! What genius to figure out the upper levels don't work - and guess what? when you talk to an ashtray, it is not listening

Hilarious, and I agree. And I think this is especially true when it comes to the OT levels. Right up there with Harry Potter, Oz, Lord of the Rings and Narnia, but not the same quality.

But the idea of finding one's "ruin", then using a process to release the power/energy trapped or stuck in a painful memory from the past in order to get your power back and heal has something powerful to it. It is seductive, especially to many of us - I'm speaking about myself - who want to let something go, who know we aren't manifesting at full power.

You're right about the 60's and 70's, and the self-help/psychology movement in the 70's, but it was also about the end of the 40's and the 50's - and the idea of "The Power of Positive Thinking"...mind over matter and creating the life you want. Phrases like, "It's true if it is true for you" sound great, especially to young people, or someone who is coming from a counter culture position, someone who wants to "invent themselves." which can be a noble pursuit.

For me, it is okay to acknowledge that some people have had genuine wins with Scientology, especially with the early stages, otherwise why the hell would people stick around and pay all that money?

Wright tells a story from his book about John Travolta getting an audition for Welcome Back, Kotter and thinking he wasn't right for the part of Vinnie Barbarino. So, the teacher made his whole Scientology class that he was in at the time point themselves in the direction of the studio doing the casting and had the entire room focus their attention on him getting the part. He did, and he was hooked. It might have been that he would have gotten it anyway, but I think the story is more powerful than that.

For me, whether Scientology is bullshit or not, I do believe in the power of collective prayer and focus, being supported by others to achieve one's vision, stating an intention, etc. Now is that Scientology, or just proper use of the mind? It gets muddy. But if I'd been in that room, I might have thought when he came back and said to the class he got the part, "Damn, this shit really works!"

My point is that people who say that Scientology absolutely works and delivers on its promise are out of their minds, but people, and I've been one of them, who say, it never works, EVER, under any circumstances, may also be deceiving ourselves.

I think the greater point is, even if it works 30 or 40% of the time, (and that's generous), is it worth the cost in human devastation to achieve those results?

 

[Gadfly]

My point is that people who say that Scientology absolutely works and delivers on its promise are out of their minds, but people, and I've been one of them, who say, it never works, EVER, under any circumstances, may also be deceiving ourselves.

I think the greater point is, even if it works 30 or 40% of the time, (and that's generous), is it worth the cost in human devastation to achieve those results?

But, the point of this thread is that it NEVER works to create actual Clears or OTs as defined and described by Hubbard.

It may work to help you feel good about something, or to just feel good, but as far as the State of Clear and OT abilities - NOPE! It is a BIG ZERO!

 

[FrodoDLB]

STOP! There is nothing to debate
Hubbard was a pulp fiction writer - that is all he ever was
His only accomplishment was figuring out he could make more money selling his (poor) science fiction as a religious story than as a penny per word science fiction story, and he had the lack of conscience and morals to do so.
It was the 60's and 70's and people were stoned and stupid and fell for it
Jeez! What genius to figure out the upper levels don't work - and guess what? when you talk to an ashtray, it is not listening

Reading this thread has been great for me. And I just loved this last post and laughed out loud. I did just enough TR drills to actually begin to wonder if the ashtray would ever move. The scary part is I thought someday it just might.

I just want to add my 2 cents worth about the discussion of abilities and talent levels of people. Yes there are extraordinary people with extraordinary talents out there in all walks of life. Certainly showing an iPhone to someone from the past would be beyond comprehension and maybe even scary to the point of calling you evil. But the iPhone exists and man has walked on another celestial body even tough as little as 100 years ago to walk on the moon seemed impossible.

Are we capable of bigger and better things? I would say yes. I would also say that we are capable of things we cannot even comprehend yet. Like the guy from the past seeing the iPhone and thinking it is evil.
We need to open ourselves to the possibilities that are out there.

Past lives? I have no knowledge of any personally but I am open to the possibility and it could explain a lot. Like why some people have amazing abilities at young ages and why some people are afraid of snakes or heights or whatever. Maybe there is a reason and maybe it is the experiences from a past life whether or not you are fully conscious of them.

OT abilities – As far as them working for some and not for others maybe it is matter of being ready for the level you are trying to obtain. The thought of some of the publicly declared OT abilities actually scare me. I am not sure I want, in my current spiritual state, the ability to be at cause over MEST. What if my intentions are not all good? What if I get drunk with power and start doing some nasty things. Oh sure it was all rainbows and unicorn farts at first and then ... And if it went badly could I live myself after creating havoc? Maybe you need a certain level of spiritual maturity to even begin to be considered responsible enough for OT capabilities.

I think the universe is grand and part of the magic is what we do not yet know. Reminds me of a quote I have loved for years. If there is one thing that riding a motorcycle has taught me is that it is the journey, and not the destination, that is important.

"The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting
for our wits to grow sharper."

Eden Phillpotts

So Here I am patiently waiting, hoping and doing everything in my power to make my "wits grow sharper". Maybe, just maybe, the journey is so much more than we can comprehend. And maybe that is the way it should be. And maybe as you grow more and more things will become within your comprehension and eventually your abilities. The universe is incomprehensibly vast and large and filled with many things for us to discover.

Another quote that fills me full of hope is this one.

"Here is a test
to find out if
your mission in life
is completed or not.

If you are alive it is not!"

Richard Bach

And another:

“The almighty lecturer, by displaying the principals of science in
the structure of the universe, has invited man to study and to
imitation. It is as if he had said to the inhabitants of this globe
that we call ours, "I have made an earth for man to dwell upon, and
I have rendered the starry heavens visible, to teach him science
and the arts. He can now provide for his own comfort, and learn
from my MUNIFICENCE to all to be kind to each other. “
- Thomas Paine (1794)
[Munificence-giving with great generosity or liberality]


TTFN (Ta-ta for now)
Frodo (with the hairy feet and waiting for the my wit to catch up!)

 

[Panda Termint]

But, the point of this thread is that it NEVER works to create actual Clears or OTs as defined and described by Hubbard.

It may work to help you feel good about something, or to just feel good, but as far as the State of Clear and OT abilities - NOPE! It is a BIG ZERO!

Yes, very early in the piece I found it worked best not to allow anyone (including Hubbard) define me. Hubbard's descriptions and definitions of people and things have always been overblown, he was that kinda guy.

 

[Techless]

From X's boyfriend:

"It's just that Hubbard didn't have it because he wasn't part of a mystery school, but he pretended like he did."

I'd like to ask now: then what about all the stuff with Jack Parson's, OTO and Hubbub being the actual 'partner in crime' with him, to what is one of the biggest (in those circles of very weird black-magic and all) darkest rituals ever: that of impregnating a women with the image of the devil? I think this would qualify Hubbub to having a very large part in the mystery school?!? Right?

I'm thinking now really, that any and all of Dianetics or Scios (as many have asked questioned here) are NEVER going to be completely debugged/analyzed or understood, whatever, without any of this little 'history' being looked into further. Perhaps a reason why it hasn't been looked into thoroughly yet? Yea, it all leads back to Crowley - as far as 19/20th centuries go. But I would not say that Hubbub was naive about any of this...think actually it was a major 'key' in his later to be realized scam.

Hmm. wondering...as I've been checking into lately - very interesting stuff with the ties of the occult - to the entire space program and all

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Yes, very early in the piece I found it worked best not to allow anyone (including Hubbard) define me. Hubbard's descriptions and definitions of people and things have always been overblown, he was that kinda guy.

That seems to be a common denominator among those who have acknowledged receiving benefit from auditing tech: the ability to put aside what they were told by church authorities and focus on pursuing their own goals and interests in session in combination with the ability to interpret such things for themselves.


Mark A. Baker

 

[RogerB]

< Snipped . . . >

That is why I tend towards the view that Hubbard intended the scam right from the start, and that he was not some sort of sincere believer himself who actually thought that he was onto something and could "save Mankind". I think Hubbard took the ideas of BE-DO-HAVE very seriously. He would BE whatever he had to be (aka "actor", pretend, lie), so that he could get lots of people DOING all sorts of things, so that Hubbard could accumulate (HAVE) power, money, admiration and more. To me Hubbard is the epitome of dis-ingenuousness, phoniness and contrived hype.

Right on there, Pardner! It was a con job from the start . . . and like all con jobs it had to be attractive and everything he presented was made attractive to the "marks" . . . .

This is not to say we didn't get something out of it (I did: without him and Scn I'd still likely be ill-informed on the best of spiritual matters as I'd not have traveled the path I did) . . . but his motives were other than he told us and made public, and it was all for his own agenda.

And his dishonesty did harm to some or many.

Rog

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... I think this would qualify Hubbub to having a very large part in the mystery school?!? Right? ... ...

No. Active participation in an occult group does not equate to knowledge of esoterica or occultism any more than going to church makes one holy.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... I think Hubbard took the ideas of BE-DO-HAVE very seriously. He would BE whatever he had to be (aka "actor", pretend, lie), so that he could get lots of people DOING all sorts of things, so that Hubbard could accumulate (HAVE) power, money, admiration and more. To me Hubbard is the epitome of dis-ingenuousness, phoniness and contrived hype.

And well he could as it is a key component of Vedanta as figured in the Hindu Trimurti. It's one of the many valid fundamentals of scientology tech which Hubbard glommed on from another source. And as with any tool it can be used in a fashion which is not beneficial.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Techless]

From Frodo: "So Here I am patiently waiting, hoping and doing everything in my power to make my "wits grow sharper". Maybe, just maybe, the journey is so much more than we can comprehend. And maybe that is the way it should be. And maybe as you grow more and more things will become within your comprehension and eventually your abilities. The universe is incomprehensibly vast and large and filled with many things for us to discover."

Just relating what has happened to me, in life -pre/during/post scn- and other explorations into enlightenment all during:

Seriously consider doing some Art. This can be anything, and I've found consistently, that while pursuing it all along, that it has never failed me in giving me some further truth, some expanded ability, and all the while never threatening me - unlike all various 'schisms' out there. Every one had always told me that I have some 'talent' - I'd always responded with B.S! It had more to do with my interest and pursuit into it! Suppose this could be argued till doomsday, but it's a stupid pursuit.

So if you truly wish to know anything, then do it (Art). The experience will never fail you, unless you have a major block of :"oh, I'm just not good enough". Doesn't matter.

I've been reading through on this thread and have run across a bunch of 'skill' vs. 'talent' questions. I'd consider them the same thing. These really are only questions to be asked by those not really doing anything within the area. I could barf out unending chatter here about this, but the greatest thing here to explore is merely a 'suggestion' to get into something which I'm sure everyone admires to some degree, (self expression) and at the same time then has their own version of why they can't do it themselves.
I know now, that anyone can learn anything they wish to know, by doing this. (I'm not talking about the blind becoming a great painter, or the deaf becoming a wonderful concert piano player - sure I'll see some on science channel at some point though)

So why keep it in the land of: oh, I'll never be able to do, or I don't know how Hendrix or Coltrane or Bach did what they did? Sure practice helps (understatement) but you'll never do just that part of, if your desire is just to be better than the other guy. Or just stand there wondering. You always be intimidated to not ever try. I've known for most of my life now, that there's always going to be someone better, more technical, bla, bla, bla. But the old Pink Floyd argument sorta makes that whole idea pretty much fade away. I knew Steve Vai up at Berklee - before his worship status and how that played out. I'm still sure Floyd has gotten through to millions more. And not to take anything away from Steve - but I do know his goal was music, and not becoming a guitar hero (though he's got that down quite well).
(I'm just relating here on musical terms - not on writer, architecture, or knitting viewpoints)

Art will lead you in to the correct areas from which to learn, where you need to be, to discover yourself and others, and from a much healthier place. Sorry to babble, I just have a hard time when I hear folks talk about wondering what to do, where to go, to find some enlightenment. It's right there in front of you the whole time. That's mostly what that Bach guy (as in Richard) was trying to say I'm pretty sure.

Keeping the inspiration is the hardest part for sure, then it's no different for anything else really, like Scio, but then where'd that get you...? Better to battle out 'inspiration' issues, with something that will always have a valuable return -maybe small at times - but/and will never screw you over. This is something I'm saying here and has helped immensely in getting past that which has screwed me over. Plus, I'm too old to start over and just like to take the best parts in accounting for where I'm at now. Not totally sure where that is, but it's better than battling it out with someone else's dream, whether legit or total crappola.

It was when Hubbub came out with his 'Art' book, and after having had to suffer through his own 'art' that I realized he didn't know diddily F%&* about it. That book was just his tactic to get into Hollyweird more. Right!

Art is a seemingly very 'touchy' topic to discuss in too great of depth for some time now. Mostly subjective, which makes it hard. Especially on the upper echelons when discussing (unless you too can actually do it) the utter 'magic' that can be seen by some artists. Magic it is indeed, but not what needs to be known to make it such. It's really the 'eecking out of oneself', that can really lead to it.

Mostly though: it's Friggin FUN. And 'getting oneself out there' -is infinitely more important than 'getting oneself into" somebody else's BS. Like we all did. (I do beat myself daily with little balsa wood stick - just so ya know)

Art is the most real, and wonderful thing I've found on this strange little planet. I hope everyone can find some truth in this for themselves, before getting too far derailed, with all that's out there and designed to derail us. I'm very derail-able - but have a 'secret' weapon to get back on track.

Best,
TL

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

Reading this thread has been great for me. And I just loved this last post and laughed out loud. I did just enough TR drills to actually begin to wonder if the ashtray would ever move. The scary part is I thought someday it just might.

I just want to add my 2 cents worth about the discussion of abilities and talent levels of people. Yes there are extraordinary people with extraordinary talents out there in all walks of life. Certainly showing an iPhone to someone from the past would be beyond comprehension and maybe even scary to the point of calling you evil. But the iPhone exists and man has walked on another celestial body even tough as little as 100 years ago to walk on the moon seemed impossible.

Are we capable of bigger and better things? I would say yes. I would also say that we are capable of things we cannot even comprehend yet. Like the guy from the past seeing the iPhone and thinking it is evil.
We need to open ourselves to the possibilities that are out there.

Past lives? I have no knowledge of any personally but I am open to the possibility and it could explain a lot. Like why some people have amazing abilities at young ages and why some people are afraid of snakes or heights or whatever. Maybe there is a reason and maybe it is the experiences from a past life whether or not you are fully conscious of them.

OT abilities – As far as them working for some and not for others maybe it is matter of being ready for the level you are trying to obtain. The thought of some of the publicly declared OT abilities actually scare me. I am not sure I want, in my current spiritual state, the ability to be at cause over MEST. What if my intentions are not all good? What if I get drunk with power and start doing some nasty things. Oh sure it was all rainbows and unicorn farts at first and then ... And if it went badly could I live myself after creating havoc? Maybe you need a certain level of spiritual maturity to even begin to be considered responsible enough for OT capabilities.

I think the universe is grand and part of the magic is what we do not yet know. Reminds me of a quote I have loved for years. If there is one thing that riding a motorcycle has taught me is that it is the journey, and not the destination, that is important.

"The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting
for our wits to grow sharper."

Eden Phillpotts

So Here I am patiently waiting, hoping and doing everything in my power to make my "wits grow sharper". Maybe, just maybe, the journey is so much more than we can comprehend. And maybe that is the way it should be. And maybe as you grow more and more things will become within your comprehension and eventually your abilities. The universe is incomprehensibly vast and large and filled with many things for us to discover.

Another quote that fills me full of hope is this one.

"Here is a test
to find out if
your mission in life
is completed or not.

If you are alive it is not!"

Richard Bach

And another:

“The almighty lecturer, by displaying the principals of science in
the structure of the universe, has invited man to study and to
imitation. It is as if he had said to the inhabitants of this globe
that we call ours, "I have made an earth for man to dwell upon, and
I have rendered the starry heavens visible, to teach him science
and the arts. He can now provide for his own comfort, and learn
from my MUNIFICENCE to all to be kind to each other. “
- Thomas Paine (1794)
[Munificence-giving with great generosity or liberality]


TTFN (Ta-ta for now)
Frodo (with the hairy feet and waiting for the my wit to catch up!)

Frodo, thank you for this beautiful post.

"I think I love you, so what am I so afraid of..." - David Cassidy & The Partridge Family

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

But, the point of this thread is that it NEVER works to create actual Clears or OTs as defined and described by Hubbard.

It may work to help you feel good about something, or to just feel good, but as far as the State of Clear and OT abilities - NOPE! It is a BIG ZERO!

I can't argue with you there.

 

[Gadfly]

And well he could as it is a key component of Vedanta as figured in the Hindu Trimurti. It's one of the many valid fundamentals of scientology tech which Hubbard glommed on from another source. And as with any tool it can be used in a fashion which is not beneficial.

Mark A. Baker

I think you may be a bit confused here Mark.

If we were talking about a cycle of action, start-change-stop, or create-survive-destroy, I would have to agree with you. But I was talking about Be-Do-Have, which is NOT even slightly similar to the Hindu notion:

The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: त्रिमूर्तिः trimūrti) is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahmā the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver and Śhiva the destroyer or transformer."

It takes a great deal of misplaced imagination and leaps of meaning and logic to turn one into the other. And, just because there are three components in Be-Do-Have means nothing. There are three parts to ARC and KRC also, and they have nothing to do with the Hindu Trimurti. Though maybe the Catholic Holy Trinity does . . . .

Come on, those of you with severely exaggerated imaginations (a quality developed by involvement with Scientology), make sense of how create-survive-destroy actually relates to is the Father-The Son-The Holy Ghost.

I noticed while involved with Scientology that it became a sort of ability of Scientologists to make sense of total nonsense. They HAD to, otherwise they couldn't pass star-rate checkouts, do demos, and get through their courses using standard study tech.

I remember when the definition of the second dynamic was changed to "creativity". It was obviously completely off-the-wall when compared to everything else Hubbard ever said about the 2D, but good malleable conforming typically-moronic Scientologists almost one-for-one had it "all make total sense" to them. It was almost scary to watch - if it hadn't been so sadly funny. Until the definition was then changed back a few years ago, and then it no longer made sense to them!

Please don't do the same thing with Be-Do-Have.

Hubbard had a thing for threes. There are three key components in many of his notions, three wives, and so forth.

Be-Do-Have are the three aspects of what Hubbard called, "The Conditions of Existence". Personally, I think he was full of shit on this one. He goes on to say that these three conditions comprise life. All life, everywhere. So tell, how does an ant, a species of trees, or a flock of geese exhibit and use these "conditions of existence"? Please put that imagination into overdrive. Because it often requires great feats of imagination to make sense of what is fundamentally hogwash. Now, as far as a human being goes, there might be some use for the notion of be-do-have on the stage of life, but is it some basic deep truth of all life?

I repeat, Be-Do-Have is not the Hindu "cycle". But, a person can accept and adopt any significance and have it be true, no matter how nutty. THAT is one thing I did learn from my involvement with Scientology.

I would add that most applications of be-do-have require a good deal of pretense, phoniness, and what I would call "acting". Simply, you adopt an identity, and pretend that is you, so that one can bring about various actions and get things. I have no use for the concept in my life. To me it is grossly exaggerated in importance and value.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I think you may be a bit confused here Mark.

If we were talking about a cycle of action, start-change-stop, or create-survive-destroy, I would have to agree with you. But I was talking about Be-Do-Have, which is NOT even slightly similar to the Hindu notion: ...

Not true at all, G. The two are intimately related, although most easily seen when considered from a perspective of "emptiness of being".


Mark A. Baker

 

[Gadfly]

Not true at all, G. The two are intimately related, although most easily seen when considered from a perspective of "emptiness of being".

Mark A. Baker

Like I said Mark, one MUST contribute his or her own additions, alterations and distortions to often make sense of Hubbard's idea.

From a perspective of "emptiness of being"? I never heard Hubbard talk of any such thing. This is Mark's unique squirrel version of Scientology again, right?

Again, how does an ant, a species of trees, or a flock of geese exhibit and use these "conditions of existence"? I can imagine all sorts of imaginary possibilities, but they are all fictional make-believe. For instance, I suppose that the primordial cosmic awareness (whatever THAT is) somehow mocked up (through an act of creative fiat) quad-zillions of identities, setting in motion endless activities, so that we could have stars, suns, moons, planets, and on and on. More of the Factors hogwash - that is just vague enough so that people with over-active imaginations can "fill in the blanks".

Anyway, we are each free to imagine whatever we want - but remember that it is an exercise in imagination, and not much else.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... From a perspective of "emptiness of being"? I never heard Hubbard talk of any such thing. ...

"static"

A rose by any name ...

or if you prefer ...

If it looks like a duck ...


Mark A. Baker

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

ouff. Painful. Was going to engage the last point, but holy-cognitive-dissonant-hell-of-a-set-of-blinderz-batty-boy!

*going drinking nao*

 

[Techless]

No. Active participation in an occult group does not equate to knowledge of esoterica or occultism any more than going to church makes one holy.


Mark A. Baker

Well, I guess you know more than i, but I still think anyone participating in a ritual to birth the devil, has to have, and had known to some degree the process that went along with such.

Would you say that anyone doing OT 8 knows nothing of the subject? Regardless of whether it 'worked' or not, I would never call them unknowledgeable about the topic - that's just like saying 'no one really knows anything about anything' - one of of those mystical ideas which keep you wondering...BS

Hub had more knowledge of than most, just by being a very serious participant. I didn't say anything about being an expert though.

 

[Gadfly]

No. Active participation in an occult group does not equate to knowledge of esoterica or occultism any more than going to church makes one holy.

Mark A. Baker

Geez mark, active participation in an occult group is quite a bit different than the casual Sunday church goer.

What was your point, other than (intentional or unintentional) misdirection?

People who actively participate in occult subjects often and usually have an avid interest, and spend a great deal of time studying about it. I know - I was one of them. Granted I never tried to impregnate a women with the seed of Satan and thus open the doors to an alternate dimension to allow in various sleazy entities!

Hubbard obviously contacted a great deal of information of an esoteric and occult nature.

His ideas on postulates, considerations and agreements and how they relate to ones personal experience of reality are distortions of the basic magickal ideas inherent to all forms of visualization and affirmation methods (though he never hands these to his followers in any sort of simple and workable form).

 

[Techless]

I think you may be a bit confused here Mark.

If we were talking about a cycle of action, start-change-stop, or create-survive-destroy, I would have to agree with you. But I was talking about Be-Do-Have, which is NOT even slightly similar to the Hindu notion:

The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: त्रिमूर्तिः trimūrti) is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahmā the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver and Śhiva the destroyer or transformer."

It takes a great deal of misplaced imagination and leaps of meaning and logic to turn one into the other. And, just because there are three components in Be-Do-Have means nothing. There are three parts to ARC and KRC also, and they have nothing to do with the Hindu Trimurti. Though maybe the Catholic Holy Trinity does . . . .

Come on, those of you with severely exaggerated imaginations (a quality developed by involvement with Scientology), make sense of how create-survive-destroy actually relates to is the Father-The Son-The Holy Ghost.

I noticed while involved with Scientology that it became a sort of ability of Scientologists to make sense of total nonsense. They HAD to, otherwise they couldn't pass star-rate checkouts, do demos, and get through their courses using standard study tech.

I remember when the definition of the second dynamic was changed to "creativity". It was obviously completely off-the-wall when compared to everything else Hubbard ever said about the 2D, but good malleable conforming typically-moronic Scientologists almost one-for-one had it "all make total sense" to them. It was almost scary to watch - if it hadn't been so sadly funny. Until the definition was then changed back a few years ago, and then it no longer made sense to them!

Please don't do the same thing with Be-Do-Have.

Hubbard had a thing for threes. There are three key components in many of his notions, three wives, and so forth.

Be-Do-Have are the three aspects of what Hubbard called, "The Conditions of Existence". Personally, I think he was full of shit on this one. He goes on to say that these three conditions comprise life. All life, everywhere. So tell, how does an ant, a species of trees, or a flock of geese exhibit and use these "conditions of existence"? Please put that imagination into overdrive. Because it often requires great feats of imagination to make sense of what is fundamentally hogwash. Now, as far as a human being goes, there might be some use for the notion of be-do-have on the stage of life, but is it some basic deep truth of all life?

I repeat, Be-Do-Have is not the Hindu "cycle". But, a person can accept and adopt any significance and have it be true, no matter how nutty. THAT is one thing I did learn from my involvement with Scientology.

I would add that most applications of be-do-have require a good deal of pretense, phoniness, and what I would call "acting". Simply, you adopt an identity, and pretend that is you, so that one can bring about various actions and get things. I have no use for the concept in my life. To me it is grossly exaggerated in importance and value.

Its funny and reminds me now of some upper level tape/lecture I heard near the end of my time within, where he states the b-d-h cycle is actually an illusion, and it's really have-be-do!! Well, I was always good at twisting things before Scn, but after having had most of it twisted further at some point between middle and total freedom, it just made me realize it could be twisted forever more, however and whatever needs to be done, to keep the money stream coming in...

But jeez, some very heady stuff going on here!