War crimes: Are exes accountable for things they did when they were in?

[Good twin]

I continue to try to forgive myself. Some days I'm successful and other days not so much. Justice and injustice have nothing to do with it. It's just an emotional struggle. Sometimes I do something or experience something that makes it all seem okay. Other times I do something or experience something that makes it all seem very not okay. Everything I've done, good and bad, has contributed to who I am today. You can't just "come up to present time" and expect the consequences of your past actions to disappear.

Since my own truth has changed. I try to be faithful to my truth as it exists now. I choose not to forget the truth of my past so I won't pass judgment on others. We are all still evolving is how I see it.

 

[uncle sam]

You are absolutely right!

Lulu,

youre right, thats the two questions...



Can I forgive them?

Can I forgive myself?



I think really in the end you have to.

Sorry!
LaLa

Your "spot on"!
Very insightful-thanks.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

If DM runs out of HQ, jumps into a police station and says 'close it down the cult is evil', that wouldnt excuse him would it.

If Guillaume does, well that's different, he's been held prisoner.

Heres a little conspiracy theory for you....What if DM was to realise that he might get toppled, decides on his replacent and says OK we'll fight for the position, I'll make it look like I put up resistance and then I'll disappear to Bulgravia, this is my bank account, just keep sending 50 per cent, and I wont tell anyone about that under age whore, or whatever he'd picked up from a sec check. He could then retire in peace, just like Idi Amin did and many others.

In another thread somewhere around here I also that was actually how I think this will end. Not quite the same scenario but I think it will be a buy off because it is only with DM's cooperation that they can get him out of the various positions he has wormed his way into.

 

[sp declared]

I just want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Can I forgive them?

Can I forgive myself?

Lulu Belle, I think we can and should forgive them. Even if now they are being celebrated as the new hero's of "reformed scientology", down deep they know what they did and, unless they really come to grip with their inner sense of morality, their lives will be miserable. They may or may not apologize in public. But down deep they'll know what they did and Karma is going to be ruthless.

And even more important you should forgive yourself: of course you made mistakes (who doesn't BTW?) but the very fact that you are here admitting it, it is a sample of your great character. This makes yourself a decent person. To use LRH: the social personality admits his wrongdoings and tries hard to correct her behaviour while the antisocial doesn't.

However even if we forgive and perhaps help them, we should not forget. These very people were the same ruthless people that would RPF you on the spot for non compliance or that would post your 2d to the other side of the globe just to get a target done. Ruthless, no emotion, no compassion.

If they apologize they will start again to feel emotions, the ice inside their heart will start to melt and they'll become human again. If they don't, the very fact they are emotionless people will be enough of a punishment. How could they feel the love of their child when they are not able to express emotions or even feel emotions?

Even if we are not the celebrities of the new scientology, we stand tall: we are decent people. We made the grade. We can move on.

Sp Declared

 

[sp declared]

Heres a little conspiracy theory for you....What if DM was to realise that he might get toppled, decides on his replacent and says OK we'll fight for the position, I'll make it look like I put up resistance and then I'll disappear to Bulgravia, this is my bank account, just keep sending 50 per cent, and I wont tell anyone about that under age whore, or whatever he'd picked up from a sec check. He could then retire in peace, just like Idi Amin did and many others.

What about if Marty Rathbun was actually fired on a mission with Rinder as his second right after it was established that scientology couldn't win against anonymous?

This is a conspiracy theory but CBO MISSION PLANNING would call for something like this: use a pattern that was already successful in the past. In 1981 scn was kept afloat by giving all the responsibility to the GO. "Dear Scientologists, the bad people have left, we are the new management and we will get things back on standard tech, policy, etc".

Time will tell.

Sp Declared

 

[La La Lou Lou]

SP Declared, Im not usually one for conspiracies, but why not.

If I was DM and thought I was in a corner I couldnt get out of, and yet somehow wanted the thing to carry on, despite having spent all my energies trying to break it. Maybe even feeling remorse, like a wifebeater crying and begging forgiveness after cracking her jaw.

Yes I think its one way of keeping face, because theres no way hed just announce he's going to the RPF and hand his hat over to someone else. Thats what Id do, though, Id record a tearful blubbery attack on my awefull behaviour, to be played to all £cientologists, as soon as I was out the way, with my major highcrimes on it, beg forgiveness and demand to go into the RPF's RPF. Actually if I trully woke up realising what I had done, and it had been in that magnitude, I would go to the police and hand myself in. I would consider it a waste of anyone elses time to try and pull me out of the black pit I was in.

But then Im not a totally black hearted scumbag.

This guy was trained from an early age to be a cold hearted bastard and make it go right. I cant see remorse possible. I really cannot trust anyone that never says theyve maid a mistake. Make me wrong Dave...

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Yeah.

Pisses me off too.

It isn't actually any of this.

It was when she was AVC Int.

You don't even want to know how much of a hell she created for people on promo lines.

But how can this be? She is born again in the cleansing power of Marty "The Lamb" Rathbun.

Sorry for the sarcasm Lulu but it is precisely this which ticks me off - watching good people grapple with the issues while people who actually need to do some serious pondering think that its all OK because they now take photographs.

Pissants.

 

[sp declared]

SP Declared, Im not usually one for conspiracies, but why not.

Seriously, lets think at DM's options. Even if he is way off the rails, I am pretty sure he has realized he cannot win this war. He uses Sun Tzu, the Art of War "if you are sure to lose a battle stop fighting and retreat". Also "if you are strong, play as though you are weak" or "deceive the enemy".

I mean the guy is probably low tone, made a lot of mistakes but I don't think he is completely stupid. I am sure he is trying to work something out to get out of this situation.

Sp Declared

 

[degraded being]

Well, I think that's kind of my point.

There were people who were in posts - by choice or by chance, who knows? - where they were able, and actually obligated, by the nature of their jobs, to inflict a lot of damage. Rinder and Rathbun were two of them. I would consider Bitty, as DM's Special Project Ops, to fit into that category as well.

But I really think a lot of our viewpoints as to "who owes" is very subjective. There were a lot of people who treated me like shit and made my life hell who weren't on those kind of posts. People in the finance office; lower level MAA jobs; people who maybe just didn't like me who were over me. (I was so low on the food chain that "people over me" constituted just about everybody. lol!)

Then there were those who may have had OSA type jobs who I knew personally and I liked them, and I considered them good people.

It all has so much to do with what we subjectively experienced.

Yes it's subjective. It's possible to really not be worried by certain things in the past. There was a minor incident with me with the GO. It was too minor to be worried about it. But if I were to meet the perpertrator(s) who were actually good people as far as I know, and did not get too heavy, I would still mention the fact that they culled my pc files for information. That's what the cult does that it should not do, so it is good to mention it. I would expect a small apology. If it was not forthcoming I would probably say "Don't you think you owe me an apology for that?". Beyond that I would not bother and would dismiss it from my mind. If more severe things had been done to me I think I would be more demanding. If the perpertrators were now out of the cult and saw no reason to apologize, or express regret or remorse I would tell them in no uncertain terms what I think of them and "cut comm "
as the cultists say. If the damage was even more severe I would consider legal action, if feasible. I would probably post their name on the internet. But ONLY if I had had some sort of contact where they did not deny what they had done, yet blithely refused to acknowldge their responsibility in it.

 

[sp declared]

Yeah.

Pisses me off too.

It isn't actually any of this.

It was when she was AVC Int.

You don't even want to know how much of a hell she created for people on promo lines.

I have to admit that I am still, to a certain degree, "indoctrinated" but if I use the data series the fact that we have a picture of Mariette Lindstein up on Marty's blog after all his talk about reformation, black scientology, etc it is an outpoint: Incorrectly included or contrary facts. I mean something is not right.

Perhaps I should do a short eval and send it to Mariette for approval...

Sp Declared

 

[Roan]

Are exes accountable for things they did when they were in?

For instance, why is Marty "not OK" but Rinder is "OK"?

It depends largely on their rank, IMO.

For the top tier like Rinder and Rathbun, no doubt about it: they are fully accountable for the destroyed lives, stolen years, ruined health and fraudulent claims they participated in. It doesn't matter how "coerced" they felt by Miscavige... at that top level of rank, it's still the United States: brainwashed or not you have the responsibility to know right from wrong when you see it and flee the premises and contact authorities rather than be an accomplice. Oh, you were brainwashed, you say? Tough shit. That doesn't relieve you of legal culpability.

Rathbun and Rinder have blood on their hands and only years of activism against Co$ or super-major, tell all, mea culpa testimony against Miscavige will relieve their karmic debt.

Thanks for asking.

.

 

[scooter]

SP Declared, Im not usually one for conspiracies, but why not.

If I was DM and thought I was in a corner I couldnt get out of, and yet somehow wanted the thing to carry on, despite having spent all my energies trying to break it. Maybe even feeling remorse, like a wifebeater crying and begging forgiveness after cracking her jaw.

Yes I think its one way of keeping face, because theres no way hed just announce he's going to the RPF and hand his hat over to someone else. Thats what Id do, though, Id record a tearful blubbery attack on my awefull behaviour, to be played to all £cientologists, as soon as I was out the way, with my major highcrimes on it, beg forgiveness and demand to go into the RPF's RPF. Actually if I trully woke up realising what I had done, and it had been in that magnitude, I would go to the police and hand myself in. I would consider it a waste of anyone elses time to try and pull me out of the black pit I was in.

But then Im not a totally black hearted scumbag.

This guy was trained from an early age to be a cold hearted bastard and make it go right. I cant see remorse possible. I really cannot trust anyone that never says theyve maid a mistake. Make me wrong Dave...

From what I can gather (and I've spoken to a few who were unfortunate enough to have been in His presence for some time so know His mind-set well) DM will never step down as it means admitting he was wrong.

Maybe He'll get pushed into it by others organizing it and somehow forcing him to capitulate but He'd never (from what I can piece together) do it willingly.

Having lickspittles is more important to Him than Fame and Fortune.

It must make Him feel big.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

If he wasnt such a toe-rag Id feel sorry for him.

He is pathetic, he's too big to admit to having made a mistake?

Then blowing could work, as long as he's lined up a good plastic surgeon.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Type4pts, I would add that some were guilty of committing financial fraud, anyone who falsified loan documents, falsified income statements to procure fraudulent loans, misled folks who were putting their homes on the line as to the actual terms of the debts they were incurring, etc. That did happen in California and is being investigated by the State Attny General's Office. Others did not disclose that they were earning a "commission" (kick-back) from the amounts regged from public, and that was part of the "cost" of services. I don't think "the ends justified the means" of being a true believer trying to save everyone's souls rationalization will cut it in the California justice system.

I agree that this "defense" won't cut it in the justice system.
I hadn't heard that the crimes were being investigated by the State Attny General's Office. Is this a case about a particular person or with all the service organizations out there?
Personally I had never been on reg lines and IF those kinds of things were happening in Boston org where I worked I was unaware of it.
The only thing I can recall in this regards that was fraudulent.....I recall some meeting or seminar where a woman was discussing a technique to apply for many credit cards simultaneously so the banks when reviewing your applications cannot see that you have all these outstanding credit lines out there and will be more likely to approve your card. So you do like 15 or more at the same time and then you can get a good chunk of money to put down on your bridge.
I don't recall who said that, it wasn't a Boston staff member, maybe a reg from Flag. It's not something I did or ever encouraged someone else to do but I have to admit that at the time I did feel that the "end justifies the means". Yeah, you'll have a mountain of credit card debt, but you'll be so much more able after the auditing/training that it will be worth it. I actually believed that back then.
I don't mean to imply that all registrars participated in these practices, at all. For those that did, and where it can be legally proven, I think they should be prosecuted. Sorry if that seems harsh to anyone, but the fallout from these actions is pretty harsh, too. Financial fraud is financial fraud, even when committed in the name of a religion.
I understand why you feel that way. I've got a different solution though. Since the Co$ has gotten wealthy since its inception with rumors of hundreds of millions in reserves, and they accomplished this by exploiting staff, Sea Org members, deceiving them, using powerful mind-control techniques, defrauding many thousands of public over the years selling them a product of "Clear" and "OT" which they could not deliver, they harassed and abused many though their policies of Fair Game, Disconnection, and other human rights abuses, I've got a solution. Use those hundreds of millions in reserves and pay it out in damages to all of these people. And if that's not enough to cover it then to sell off all the assets and use that money as well. As far as the justice actions taken on individuals, I do believe it should be handled on a case by case basis. I do believe that the Co$ should be the primary target though.

Of course, everyone is responsible for their own actions, and lack of action in any given circumstance. Yes, there are sometimes mitigating circumstances.
While the law may not recognize "brainwashing" due to inability to measure it (or for other reasons) for me it is very real. Very very few of us would have ever got involved with the Co$ and went to work for them for 50 cents/hour or hand over hundreds of thousands for your bridge or IAS if you knew what you knew now.
We came in for the purpose of helping others and/or helping ourselves. We got conned........big time.

OK youre a new recruit to the gestapo, youre told to take these bars of soap and get people stripped for the shower. So then youre not guilty that they all get gassed. But at some point you would notice that truckfulls of dead bodies are being taken out of the showers.
Within scientology it always isn't so obvious. Even after being out for 15 years (5 years ago) I didn't believe most of the stuff I read on the internet with regards to the insanity going on at the Int Base. I worked at Boston org for 7 years, Soco Int (on Wilshire Blvd, Los Angeles), and in the Sea Org for less than a year in Clearwater. I never saw anything close to what I read about on the internet and it was completely unreal and unbelievable to me. Even though I was only briefly in the S.O. I still managed to even make it onto the RPF and it was like a cakewalk compared to the stories I read. Several months ago when the SP Times article came out with Rathbun, Rinder, and the others speaking out, giving graphic descriptions of what transpired there at Int with DM did I really start to do extensive reading of stories here on ESMB and elsewhere, and I came to a certainty that these stories were for real.



Then you are at the moment of realisation guilty if you carry on. If you stop and shoot your boss you become a hero. Not straight away but only when the russian army has taken the camp over. Dont forget that everyone knew that the conspiracy of the jews had stopped our great nation from surviving, they had sucked our country dry together with eating our babies and the only solution to these jews gypsies gays thieves and commies was anhialation, they had been living in their ghettos causing inflation and your childs mumps, it was scientifically proven you just had to read the latest book on Eugenics. They were not people anyway they were subhuman degenerates.

No I cant see that belief is an excuse. 'I believe that pig eating infidels must die', no you have to take responsability for your beliefs. Your political party or religion could tell you to rape rats, they deserve it, its your duty. You dont have to take on an insane viewpoint, and if you do then youre insane!

There were many people who helped people into trains, told the gestapo where Moischa lived told them they thought their maths teacher was a bit of a bender, and they never went to trail, they probably felt aweful afterwards, or if they were too week they never admitted to themselves what theyd done.

It takes a certain amount of guts to realise that you sold a sponsorship to someone you liked, but knew he really couldnt afford it. It takes a lot to realise that family money, put asside after a lifetimes hard work is out of someones bank and passed through the IAS coffers because you took someone to see a reg. But weve all done stuff like that, we have been part of a team that did some nasty things. However we did not all stand by while someone died from lack of food and medicine.

If you do not realise the effect youre causing by getting someone to remortgage their house again then you are not guilty, but you should know their finances if you really care. If you do realise but believe that the stars will stop twinkling if you dont then youre partially innocent? No no one has the right to be stupid, well not if your IQ is above 75 anyway.

So yes they are guilty, and so am I and so are you.
OK, you've just adjudicated and found me guilty. I don't even get an ethics hearing, or Comm Ev, or Sec Checks?
.......uh, one more thing........what are my crimes?? And the finding and recs?

...

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Youre a very naughty boy. Because youve done naughty things. But your biggest crime is wearing the wrong uniform, that hat's just wrong!

Now go and stand in the corner, and theres no mid rats for you!

What a naughty nutkin!

 

[Type4_PTS]

Youre a very naughty boy. Because youve done naughty things. But your biggest crime is wearing the wrong uniform, that hat's just wrong!

Now go and stand in the corner, and theres no mid rats for you!

What a naughty nutkin!

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

I believe in forgiveness.
Even I have done things I regret while in. I believe it all depends on how you handle what you did wrong while in. What I mean by that is seeking those who you feel you harmed and letting them know you did wrong and asking from them what you can do to help them now. This is why Marty is still disliked by many. Yes he has come out and exposed DM but he has yet to publically say he's sorry. He expects me to go to him...lol.
Forgiveness is the answer. But the people that have done misdeeds need to be the ones to reach for foregiveness imo.

 

[degraded being]

I believe in forgiveness.
Even I have done things I regret while in. I believe it all depends on how you handle what you did wrong while in. What I mean by that is seeking those who you feel you harmed and letting them know you did wrong and asking from them what you can do to help them now. This is why Marty is still disliked by many. Yes he has come out and exposed DM but he has yet to publically say he's sorry. He expects me to go to him...lol.
Forgiveness is the answer. But the people that have done misdeeds need to be the ones to reach for foregiveness imo.

I agree with that. It's not that I don't believe in forgiveness, it's that perpertrators should offer something, even if it's just an apology. I don't believe in "forgiving" anyone and everyone indiscriminately. On a personal level it may be OK, but it neglects the social level and erodes common values so that in the future people may assume that apologies, responsilbilty, etc, are no longer necessary.
This is what happens in the cult. Just seeing things happen, that shouldn't happen, continually, normalizes it. That's why abused people are sometimes far less outraged at the treatment they have recieved than people they report it to. So I think it's worth asking what patterns of behavior are being reinforced or supported by the way things are dealt with now.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

There are mitigating cirumstances

Because of the "cult" status, most people were operating with incorrect (and often incoherent) information.

Someone mentioned Frankenstein's monster--look at the Movie. The little girl was throwing flowers into the river "because they were pretty". Acting on little or no information on living materials, he thought the little girl was pretty, so he threw her into the river. Because she drowned, the Monster was suddenly "evil" in a world he did not understand.

I think, for many young people with little life experience, that the exclusion of the outside world means that most staffers and SO are also operating on good intentions. To the best of my knowledge, I broke no laws--and I certainly hope that there is no one out there now injured because of my actions.

However, I stated it in another thread: although my time inside was short compared to many others, I still bare a level of responsibility for having contributed to the functionality of that organization.

 

[Lulu Belle]

Because of the "cult" status, most people were operating with incorrect (and often incoherent) information.

Someone mentioned Frankenstein's monster--look at the Movie. The little girl was throwing flowers into the river "because they were pretty". Acting on little or no information on living materials, he thought the little girl was pretty, so he threw her into the river. Because she drowned, the Monster was suddenly "evil" in a world he did not understand.

That's a great analogy. I never heard this Frankenstein story before.