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War crimes: Are exes accountable for things they did when they were in?

That's a great analogy. I never heard this Frankenstein story before.

Not to derail the thread, but Frakenstein is a book of pure genius written by Mary Shelley. The movies have never been able to touch her nuanced pholosophical arguments about the resposibilities of creators to the things they create. It really is a must read...
 
Not to derail the thread, but Frakenstein is a book of pure genius written by Mary Shelley. The movies have never been able to touch her nuanced pholosophical arguments about the resposibilities of creators to the things they create. It really is a must read...

Holy Moly - Div 6 and I agree. it is indeed a brilliant book!
 
Legally accountable or something else?

Marty Rathbun's blog, and the controversy surrounding his emergence, has made me think a lot lately about this subject.

There are people who consider that he did so much harm when he was in that no good can come from him now.

I can certainly see that viewpoint, considering who he was and what he was responsible for.

My question:

Where do you draw the line?

Why with some people is there an "all is forgiven" attitude and others there's a "they has a lot to be answerable for" attitude?

For instance, why is Marty "not OK" but Rinder is "OK"?

There are a lot of "now outs" who I feel have some explaining to do. Bitty Miscavige, for one. Mariette Lindsteen is another one. Maybe it's a personal thing, but they were both responsible for certain things in the SO that made my life miserable.

Should they be held accountable, or is it all water under the bridge (no pun intended)?

Would like to hear other people's viewpoints on this.


Are you talking about people being legally accountable for making your life miserable? If the ex in question broke the law, they are accountable unless a statute of limitations applies. And if they are accountable and you feel that badly about it, then hire a lawyer and bring about a civil suit against them.

If you are not talking about the law, then I am not quite tracking with what is meant by "accountable." Like getting an ESMB "Comm Ev"? Like receiving a majority thumbs up or thumbs down vote by the members of this board? I'm not trying to be snide. I am just wondering what you believe should be happening in the physical universe to signify that "accountability" has occurred or not.
 
If you are not talking about the law, then I am not quite tracking with what is meant by "accountable." Like getting an ESMB "Comm Ev"? Like receiving a majority thumbs up or thumbs down vote by the members of this board? I'm not trying to be snide. I am just wondering what you believe should be happening in the physical universe to signify that "accountability" has occurred or not.

Excellent, excellent question.

I'm not sure myself.
 
I will take responsibilty for everything I did while in the "church". I will apologize to anyone I hurt while in the "church". This includes "helping" them: Get on the bridge
Get back on the bridge
Get on Staff
Stay on staff
Get back on Staff
Get in the SO
And especially anything I did Thursday befor 2:00 PM
 
I continue to try to forgive myself. Some days I'm successful and other days not so much. Justice and injustice have nothing to do with it. It's just an emotional struggle. Sometimes I do something or experience something that makes it all seem okay. Other times I do something or experience something that makes it all seem very not okay. Everything I've done, good and bad, has contributed to who I am today. You can't just "come up to present time" and expect the consequences of your past actions to disappear.

Since my own truth has changed. I try to be faithful to my truth as it exists now. I choose not to forget the truth of my past so I won't pass judgment on others. We are all still evolving is how I see it.

Yesterday, I went through some of the KRs and other things I wrote while still a Scientologist.

I was shocked to realize that a full 5 years before I left, I was writing things down to get handled within the Church in just about the same way I write them down now on the Internet. When I became aware of them, I responded pretty much the same way to them then as I do now.

Another thing I want to say is that I have a friend who never got in who I have known since 7th grade - way before becoming a Scientologist. He was one of the friends I got away from when I became a Scientologist, but over those 16 years while in, I saw him a number of times.

A few years after getting out, he began to notice that I had this idea I had become someone completely different while I was in the cult. He told me that I was always the same, that there was not any difference at all between who I was before, while in, and after. He said that I still have the same ideals, still argued and debated and talked talked talked all the time, still loved reading and writing, etc. I gradually have come to realize that this thing I've become obsessed with, of finding my "true self", is right in front of my face, and always has been.

My point is that we really don't change all that much. There might be chronic situations we are living with during a particular time which cause us to develop semi-permanent traits to handle them. But when those situations evaporate, we go back to being our normal selves again.

There is a common thread running through all the fashionable changes in our lives.

I've come to see that when I walked into a Scientology mission in Champaign, IL in 1984 holding a Dianetics book in my hand - Scientology being what it is, and me being who I am - it was always going to end up this way.

I think the same might be said of all of us.
 
I believe in forgiveness.
Even I have done things I regret while in. I believe it all depends on how you handle what you did wrong while in. What I mean by that is seeking those who you feel you harmed and letting them know you did wrong and asking from them what you can do to help them now. This is why Marty is still disliked by many. Yes he has come out and exposed DM but he has yet to publically say he's sorry. He expects me to go to him...lol.
Forgiveness is the answer. But the people that have done misdeeds need to be the ones to reach for foregiveness imo.

Iknowtoomuch,
Does Marty know how to contact you should he want to do that?
I feel that he is in the middle of a process where he has already acknowledged some pretty seriously bad behavior such as in the link below. http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/funeral-for-a-friend-griffee-blythe/
He has publicly acknowledged that he has hurt people and has given out his contact info for people to contact him that he has hurt. In a way is that not reaching for forgiveness?
 
I dont know, one minute Im taking responsibility and the next I just think, it was fucking twenty or thirty years ago, I was duped presurised and blackmailed, brainwashed and hipnotised into body routing, waking people up to answer telexs from WDC, whatever, it was hardly Mafia stuff.

I feel sorry for the guys I insisted answer their comm, when they really had nothing to say, the order being unreal in the first place. However they surely knew that you dont get to hide from WDC like that. I think Ive learned to be truthfull now, Id just say Ive been woken up to answer this, have nothing to say the order is unreal because....and by the way, sod off and let me sleep.

If youre going to end up on the RPF anyway, you might as well.

I regretted not sending reports uplines on the suppression metered out by certain execs. Though I know that hundreds of others should have too, so why why single myself out for punishment at not writing the KR's?

Listening to the rafters rattle when Harvey Jaques (COUK) was encouraging his ED's to become upsat, swearing, threats, punishing bodies tone level . He used inval and eval like I'd never heard. And he screamed down the phone lines. But now I just realise that if Id done that he'd of been pulled off to be ED Int or something, with a chestful of medals. I think he's CO FLB now, there will be plenty of blows from there.

If you ever get to read this Harvey, sorry mate but you were scary, no really, terrifying. High decimal intention with no regard to the effect you were causing at the other end or all along the comm line. It was hell just being in the same building as you, the whole CLO could hear you, Im sure the public around Saint Hill could do too. The point about what we were supposed to be doing was about freedom not terror!

I have gained from the experience, I dont hide what I feel, if I think something is wrong Im fully willing to blow the whistle.
 
Yesterday, I went through some of the KRs and other things I wrote while still a Scientologist.

I was shocked to realize that a full 5 years before I left, I was writing things down to get handled within the Church in just about the same way I write them down now on the Internet. When I became aware of them, I responded pretty much the same way to them then as I do now.

Another thing I want to say is that I have a friend who never got in who I have known since 7th grade - way before becoming a Scientologist. He was one of the friends I got away from when I became a Scientologist, but over those 16 years while in, I saw him a number of times.

A few years after getting out, he began to notice that I had this idea I had become someone completely different while I was in the cult. He told me that I was always the same, that there was not any difference at all between who I was before, while in, and after. He said that I still have the same ideals, still argued and debated and talked talked talked all the time, still loved reading and writing, etc. I gradually have come to realize that this thing I've become obsessed with, of finding my "true self", is right in front of my face, and always has been.

My point is that we really don't change all that much. There might be chronic situations we are living with during a particular time which cause us to develop semi-permanent traits to handle them. But when those situations evaporate, we go back to being our normal selves again.

There is a common thread running through all the fashionable changes in our lives.

I've come to see that when I walked into a Scientology mission in Champaign, IL in 1984 holding a Dianetics book in my hand - Scientology being what it is, and me being who I am - it was always going to end up this way.

I think the same might be said of all of us.

Gee, Alanzo. I guess I know this is true, but there are some things I did that I sure hope I wouldn't do "for the greatest good" ever again. Also, I can't imagine any other group where the consequences are so high. I betrayed people who trusted me. I failed to intervene in situations that would destroy individuals because it would interfere with disseminating and delivering Scientology. I coerced my friends into decisions that would impact them negatively over a very long period of time. I can forgive myself for the damage I did to me, but what I did to others....

The only way I could justify the subproducts I generated in my effort to clear the planet was the certainty that someday the world would be a better place because of my efforts. Once that was shattered, the blood on the carpet became impossible to ignore.
 
Alanzo, thanks that bit about actually being yourself with you friend is interesting.

I have a theory that we really are quite different depending on who we're with. I remember some schoolfriends coming to see me when I was class 4 org staff, we giggled and went into a sex shop like country yokels, pointing out the giant dildos and laughing, just as I would have done at 18. If I met my old CO from the SO, Id probably be a totally different person, bowing and scraping. Not conciously of course. To some degree you adjust yourself to the people youre with, we are social creatures after all.

So when you were with this friend you were your old self, maybe when you were suppressed and attacked in the Org you were not. However at times you were, and felt stong enough to fight back, and write reports. As social animals we change our behaviour when the alpha male is around.

{Do armadillos have alpha males?}


La La Lou Lou [mamal]
 
Gee, Alanzo. I guess I know this is true, but there are some things I did that I sure hope I wouldn't do "for the greatest good" ever again. Also, I can't imagine any other group where the consequences are so high. I betrayed people who trusted me. I failed to intervene in situations that would destroy individuals because it would interfere with disseminating and delivering Scientology. I coerced my friends into decisions that would impact them negatively over a very long period of time. I can forgive myself for the damage I did to me, but what I did to others....

The only way I could justify the subproducts I generated in my effort to clear the planet was the certainty that someday the world would be a better place because of my efforts. Once that was shattered, the blood on the carpet became impossible to ignore.

Believe me, I know what you mean.

But while running your own personal sec check, conditions assignments, amends projects, comm evs and declares on your self - be sure to include all four flows.

Not just one.

Also, apply the hindsight bias, the fundamental attribution error, and the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Figure out exactly how much damage you really did, compared to, say, Hauptmann Gerd Wiesler in "The Lives of Others".

Then take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
 
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Glad that it's true for you!

Yesterday, I went through some of the KRs and other things I wrote while still a Scientologist.

I was shocked to realize that a full 5 years before I left, I was writing things down to get handled within the Church in just about the same way I write them down now on the Internet. When I became aware of them, I responded pretty much the same way to them then as I do now.

Another thing I want to say is that I have a friend who never got in who I have known since 7th grade - way before becoming a Scientologist. He was one of the friends I got away from when I became a Scientologist, but over those 16 years while in, I saw him a number of times.

A few years after getting out, he began to notice that I had this idea I had become someone completely different while I was in the cult. He told me that I was always the same, that there was not any difference at all between who I was before, while in, and after. He said that I still have the same ideals, still argued and debated and talked talked talked all the time, still loved reading and writing, etc. I gradually have come to realize that this thing I've become obsessed with, of finding my "true self", is right in front of my face, and always has been.

My point is that we really don't change all that much. There might be chronic situations we are living with during a particular time which cause us to develop semi-permanent traits to handle them. But when those situations evaporate, we go back to being our normal selves again.

There is a common thread running through all the fashionable changes in our lives.

I've come to see that when I walked into a Scientology mission in Champaign, IL in 1984 holding a Dianetics book in my hand - Scientology being what it is, and me being who I am - it was always going to end up this way.

I think the same might be said of all of us.

Alanzo, it's great that you're having this insight into yourself, and I hear something very healing and comforting, that you feel your essential self, essential nature or "true self" as you put it, was never lost and has never really changed all that much, in spite of Scientology. I think this is an important realization for you, and good for you for seeing it clearly. Own it! :)

However, what is true for you is not always true for everyone else. This is part of the mind-blindedness of Scientological indoctrination that needs to be relinquished. Some people do change that much, others don't. Some who are lucky are not very negatively effected by their time in Scientology, others are greatly effected. Each person's experience of this is different.

It's working for you, great! Just state your truth and let that stand.

I would imagine that there are many who can look back at months or years worth of KR's, and trying to get justice and ethics in their groups, trying to do their best to be just and compassionate in a brutal system. Many that I know who left have left because of their failed attempts to do so, after a full realization that an unjust system will never fully foster justice.
 
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Yesterday, I went through some of the KRs and other things I wrote while still a Scientologist.

I was shocked to realize that a full 5 years before I left, I was writing things down to get handled within the Church in just about the same way I write them down now on the Internet. When I became aware of them, I responded pretty much the same way to them then as I do now.

Another thing I want to say is that I have a friend who never got in who I have known since 7th grade - way before becoming a Scientologist. He was one of the friends I got away from when I became a Scientologist, but over those 16 years while in, I saw him a number of times.

A few years after getting out, he began to notice that I had this idea I had become someone completely different while I was in the cult. He told me that I was always the same, that there was not any difference at all between who I was before, while in, and after. He said that I still have the same ideals, still argued and debated and talked talked talked all the time, still loved reading and writing, etc. I gradually have come to realize that this thing I've become obsessed with, of finding my "true self", is right in front of my face, and always has been.

My point is that we really don't change all that much. There might be chronic situations we are living with during a particular time which cause us to develop semi-permanent traits to handle them. But when those situations evaporate, we go back to being our normal selves again.

There is a common thread running through all the fashionable changes in our lives.

I've come to see that when I walked into a Scientology mission in Champaign, IL in 1984 holding a Dianetics book in my hand - Scientology being what it is, and me being who I am - it was always going to end up this way.

I think the same might be said of all of us.

:thumbsup: Great post Alanzo.

For me, with WHO I was back in the mid 1970's, what I was looking for, what I knew, and what I wanted, hooking up with SCN was inevitable. It could not have happened any other way. For me, it was exactly what the doctor ordered.

Of course, now with all my experiences, with what I know, and with where I want to go (not anywhere really), I could never support or involve myself with the Church of Scientology.

There are some theories in New Age materials along the lines that we each attract people and situations necessary to SHOW US who we really are, and to assist us each in personal growth and development. This "attraction" process is part of the very nature of reality. To a certain degree you are how you BEHAVE. And all behavior occurs in unique situations. It makes some sense to me that we each attract and find ourselves in the very situations we most need, surrounded by certain people and forces, as a way to develop and grow. From this perspective, Scientology is simply a brick along the road of life (for those folks who need to learn something by involvement with Scn). Though, within the mindset of Scientology (LRH), the subject of Scientology encompasses it all, and the view is that the data includes the ENTIRE road (I don't think that it does).

A person's character develops over time based on consistent reponses to situations. Apparently, without involvement with numerous external events and situations, a person would never "know" who he or she really was, as far as "morals", "character", "honesty", and those sort of things go. It seems that a person must be "tested", and the character tempered over extensive time in the fire of existence. Possibly we each are, at the most basic, a "static" nothing (Brahma), BUT, we each have traits of "character", and those surface, appear, and develop over time (even over many many lives) through endless interaction with people and situations. One doesn't become stable by "therapy" or "auditing". One becomes stable by repetitive LIVING, and by gradually fine-tuning the traits of ones character. This takes self-inspection and personal questioning (things NOT admired or encouraged in SCN).

I have zero regret for anything having to do with Scientology. I learned many things about myself, groups, and people in general. I saw the face of fanaticism close up and I am quite sure that I could NEVER again fall into THAT trap - no matter what form it took (i.e. religious, political, scientific, ideological).

I was a person who observed things from "an exterior view", even while in, so I was always paying attention to people, what they did, why they did it, what beliefs they accepted, what seemed to motivate them, how they lied to themselves about various things, how they saw themselves as superior, how they chose to invalidate various facts to continue some pretense, and on and on. The only reason I ever stayed in was because I liked some of the data and I always enjoyed getting blown out of my head with auditing. But for me, from early on, the subject and the practice of Scientology was very inconsistent and a mixed bag presenting positive and negative aspects at every turn. I never suffered from the identification of "all things Scientology" as being good and positive - as did and do so many other overly-indoctrinated and overly controlled Church members.

I learned early to shut my mouth because I noticed quickly that even though Hubbard stressed valid key things such as personal integrity, observation, knowing what you observe, and obnosis, that the Church organization and the practical application of Hubbard's ideas had little tolerance for those qualities and abilities when directed AT the Church and LRH. But, I was always quite aware of it. I got so good at covering my true views that I could mock up and change into an entirely different beingness when going on the E-meter. I learned to create F/Ns at will. I would be called in course to mock up F/Ns for students to observe. So, I never felt victimized by any of it. I knew that I was there by choice, because I wanted the auditing, and what the parameters of the manipulation and control were.

For me, I learned a GREAT deal by being closely involved in such a well-constructed mind control outfit. Any dictator or manipulative corporate executive could learn a GREAT deal by studying Scientology in general, and especially the organizational materials.
 
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Believe me, I know what you mean.

But while running your own personal sec check, conditions assignments, amends projects, comm evs and declares on your self - be sure to include all four flows.

Not just one.

Also, apply the hindsight bias, the fundamental attribution error, and the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Figure out exactly how much damage you really did, compared to, say, Hauptmann Gerd Wiesler in "The Lives of Others".

Then take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

^^^^^^^
This.......is why I love you! :smoochy:
 
sufficient penitance and remorse

I continue to try to forgive myself. Some days I'm successful and other days not so much. Justice and injustice have nothing to do with it. It's just an emotional struggle. Sometimes I do something or experience something that makes it all seem okay. Other times I do something or experience something that makes it all seem very not okay. Everything I've done, good and bad, has contributed to who I am today. You can't just "come up to present time" and expect the consequences of your past actions to disappear.

Since my own truth has changed. I try to be faithful to my truth as it exists now. I choose not to forget the truth of my past so I won't pass judgment on others. We are all still evolving is how I see it.

Very inspirational words Good Twin. The above two paragraphs say what has to be said about this topic about as well as it can possibly be said! I also liked what Grey Wolf had to say.

If a person voices contrition to the extent that Good Twin has done then, if what they engaged in was not against the laws of the land, I would trust, work with and be friends with that person and want them in any group I am in. If what they did was illegal, that illegality should be handled through the appropriate authorities and as soon as such a person was taking the steps to handle the illegality, the acceptances mentioned above would be forthcoming.

Gadfly made a good point about people choosing or being destined to hook up with certain people or groups during their journey through life as a means of learning more about life and honing or fine tuning their character, judgement and abilities. If a person makes it all the way through a life on Earth without upsetting or inconveniencing another person, that person has not done much living, and would be just cowering somewhere being a "Miss Goodie Twoshoes." It is far better to roll in the muck and then get cleaned up than to never do anything at all.

Some kid raised in Germany in the 1930's was automatically going to be placed in the Hitler Youth and be indoctinated into Nazism. The question is not that he was once a Nazi but how he handled it and if he regreted the harm he had caused others while being part of that group. If his crimes led to murder or any other kind of unconscionable activities, he or she would need to be punished by the law but then if sufficient penance and contrition were shown, he or she should be welcomed back into society. The same type of approach should be applied to those who harmed people while being Scientology executives or being an exec in any other group which damaged peoples' lives.
Lkwdblds
 
Iknowtoomuch,
Does Marty know how to contact you should he want to do that?
I feel that he is in the middle of a process where he has already acknowledged some pretty seriously bad behavior such as in the link below. http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/funeral-for-a-friend-griffee-blythe/
He has publicly acknowledged that he has hurt people and has given out his contact info for people to contact him that he has hurt. In a way is that not reaching for forgiveness?


While that's touching, it isn't an apology.
The only "bad behavior" he has admitted to surounds DM. And it's to cover his own tracks. Otherwise the whole contacting him has to do with him "fixing" you and you giving him money.
How hard is it to apologize for his past actions? The only time he came on here was to get people to follow him, not say he was sorry. Shit doesn't fly!
 
QUOTE=Carmel;310133]I think all exes would do well by making themselves accountable for everything they did while in, and in doing so, consider the good with the bad.

However, I don't think it's a question of who should be accountable and who shouldn't be. It's more a question of "what are they doing now?" and/or "are they still doings for which they should be accountable?"[/QUOTE]


AMEN!!

I also think the biggest crime of all is keeping your trap shut!!
 
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Marty Rathbun's blog, and the controversy surrounding his emergence, has made me think a lot lately about this subject.

There are people who consider that he did so much harm when he was in that no good can come from him now.

I can certainly see that viewpoint, considering who he was and what he was responsible for.

My question:

Where do you draw the line?

Why with some people is there an "all is forgiven" attitude and others there's a "they has a lot to be answerable for" attitude?

For instance, why is Marty "not OK" but Rinder is "OK"?

There are a lot of "now outs" who I feel have some explaining to do. Bitty Miscavige, for one. Mariette Lindsteen is another one. Maybe it's a personal thing, but they were both responsible for certain things in the SO that made my life miserable.

Should they be held accountable, or is it all water under the bridge (no pun intended)?

Would like to hear other people's viewpoints on this.

If they are truly OUT and not trying to take advantage of people/exes THEN I think that it is just water under the bridge. I advocate forgiveness.
 
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