La La Lou Lou
Crusader
If the feds marched in to the prison camp the prisoners would probably beg for DM to be let off, they would claim that wanted to be there, I doubt they are of sound mind. They would need time to 'return to normal'.
What staff member would have an impact if they blew and protested?
- Thread starter FascinatedNeverIn
- Start date
If the feds marched in to the prison camp the prisoners would probably beg for DM to be let off, they would claim that wanted to be there, I doubt they are of sound mind. They would need time to 'return to normal'.
FlunkYou
Patron with Honors
It would be nice to hear from Pat Broker or Shelly Miscavige, but either wouldn't have any affect on the sheep.
Scn needs to fail/betray someone hard enough before they begin to question the validity of the "it's on the next level" promise. Otherwise, they will blindly continue to drink the cool-aide from ANYONE deemed an authority within the organization.
Scn needs to fail/betray someone hard enough before they begin to question the validity of the "it's on the next level" promise. Otherwise, they will blindly continue to drink the cool-aide from ANYONE deemed an authority within the organization.
degraded being
Sponsor
.
.
These days, all higher management would be a liability if their names were to be bandied about and known by the majority of the public, because one day they might blow. So I assume DM will be discouraging staff from getting well known. DM probably doesn't let higher-up staff make too many speeches, visit orgs too many times, and other steps are probably taken to prevent people other than himself from becoming popular. This sort of thing must put him on edge like crazy these days with celebs, who have to be well known.
.
These days, all higher management would be a liability if their names were to be bandied about and known by the majority of the public, because one day they might blow. So I assume DM will be discouraging staff from getting well known. DM probably doesn't let higher-up staff make too many speeches, visit orgs too many times, and other steps are probably taken to prevent people other than himself from becoming popular. This sort of thing must put him on edge like crazy these days with celebs, who have to be well known.
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
..
Truly hilarious!
There must be some kind of Hubbardian scale involved in this. . .
TOTAL FREEDOM
99.99% FREEDOM: ECSTATICALLY EXTERIOR,
BEING ZOOMING AROUND THE UNIVERSE
WITHOUT A BODY, AND BEING TOTAL
CAUSE OVER THINGS, LIKE RON
95% FREEDOM: RESPECTED MINI GOD.
YOU MADE IT! ALL YOU NEED
NOW IS JUST ONE MORE INTENSIVE TO VALIDATE
YOUR INCOMPREHENSIBLY OT STATE
85% FREEDOM: NOBODY'S POSTULATES WORK
ON YOU, SO YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL LIKE
75% FREEDOM: EVERYTHING IS GREAT
BUT YOU STILL NEED TO BLEED MORE
CHARGE OFF THAT PESKY REMAINING
25% OF YOUR UNHANDLED CASE--ON
THE ADVANCED LEVEL CALLED "DONATIONS".
50% FREEDOM: YOUR LIFE IS
GLORIOUSLY EUPHORIC. BUT IF YOU
DON'T CONTINUE THE BRIDGE, YOUR
FUTURE IS HIDEOUS TORTURE AND
SUFFERING FOR ETERNITY. YOU DECIDE.
25% FREEDOM: YOU ARE A SUPERNATURALLY
POWERFUL HOMO NOVUS, BUT WE ARE WORRIED
ABOUT YOU. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SENT PEOPLE
TO YOUR HOME TO MONITOR YOU AND DISCUSS
YOUR DESTINY, GORRILLA GOAL IMPLANTS AND SUCH.
1.1% FREEDOM: NOT GOOD. BY NOT COMPLETING YOUR
BRIDGE (EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE ALREADY SPENT
$500,000 AND OVER THREE DECADES--YOU ARE PRETTY
MUCH BACK WHERE YOU WERE WHEN YOU FIRST
WALKED INTO THE ORG.
0% FREEDOM: WOG
-10% FREEDOM: PTS. DON'T BLAME US FOR LOSING
ALL YOUR CASE GAIN, IT'S YOUR OWN OVERTS BUDDY.
-20% FREEDOM: DEGRADED BEING.
-30% FREEDOM: SP
-40% FREEDOM: MEST. WE TRIED TO WARN YOU ABOUT
THE DEADLY SERIOUS GAME OF GOING FREE. AND YOU
ACTED LIKE A JERK OFF. NOW YOU'RE A ROCK.
-50% FREEDOM: FORMERLY RESPECTED MINI GOD
-75% FREEDOM: AMOEBA
-100% FREEDOM: DESPISED AMOEBA
(ps: I'm still laughing about the precipitous fall from respected mini god to despised amoeba) LOL
Truly hilarious!
There must be some kind of Hubbardian scale involved in this. . .
TOTAL FREEDOM
99.99% FREEDOM: ECSTATICALLY EXTERIOR,
BEING ZOOMING AROUND THE UNIVERSE
WITHOUT A BODY, AND BEING TOTAL
CAUSE OVER THINGS, LIKE RON
95% FREEDOM: RESPECTED MINI GOD.
YOU MADE IT! ALL YOU NEED
NOW IS JUST ONE MORE INTENSIVE TO VALIDATE
YOUR INCOMPREHENSIBLY OT STATE
85% FREEDOM: NOBODY'S POSTULATES WORK
ON YOU, SO YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL LIKE
75% FREEDOM: EVERYTHING IS GREAT
BUT YOU STILL NEED TO BLEED MORE
CHARGE OFF THAT PESKY REMAINING
25% OF YOUR UNHANDLED CASE--ON
THE ADVANCED LEVEL CALLED "DONATIONS".
50% FREEDOM: YOUR LIFE IS
GLORIOUSLY EUPHORIC. BUT IF YOU
DON'T CONTINUE THE BRIDGE, YOUR
FUTURE IS HIDEOUS TORTURE AND
SUFFERING FOR ETERNITY. YOU DECIDE.
25% FREEDOM: YOU ARE A SUPERNATURALLY
POWERFUL HOMO NOVUS, BUT WE ARE WORRIED
ABOUT YOU. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SENT PEOPLE
TO YOUR HOME TO MONITOR YOU AND DISCUSS
YOUR DESTINY, GORRILLA GOAL IMPLANTS AND SUCH.
1.1% FREEDOM: NOT GOOD. BY NOT COMPLETING YOUR
BRIDGE (EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE ALREADY SPENT
$500,000 AND OVER THREE DECADES--YOU ARE PRETTY
MUCH BACK WHERE YOU WERE WHEN YOU FIRST
WALKED INTO THE ORG.
0% FREEDOM: WOG
-10% FREEDOM: PTS. DON'T BLAME US FOR LOSING
ALL YOUR CASE GAIN, IT'S YOUR OWN OVERTS BUDDY.
-20% FREEDOM: DEGRADED BEING.
-30% FREEDOM: SP
-40% FREEDOM: MEST. WE TRIED TO WARN YOU ABOUT
THE DEADLY SERIOUS GAME OF GOING FREE. AND YOU
ACTED LIKE A JERK OFF. NOW YOU'RE A ROCK.
-50% FREEDOM: FORMERLY RESPECTED MINI GOD
-75% FREEDOM: AMOEBA
-100% FREEDOM: DESPISED AMOEBA
(ps: I'm still laughing about the precipitous fall from respected mini god to despised amoeba) LOL
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Chris Shelton
Patron with Honors
There's a lot of cynicism on this thread, but the obvious answer to this question is yes, sure there are. If any of the following people blew, went on TV and protested in front of orgs, it would create an effect on those still in, especially the old timers:
(a) Heber Jentsch
(b) Guilliame Lesevre
(c) Shelley Miscavige
(d) Marc Yeager (the first guy in the Marty airport video)
(e) Jenny DeVocht (now Linson)
(f) David Bloomberg (the guy holding the camera in the Marty airport video)
(g) David Miscavige (LOL!!!)
If any one of these people came out and told what was going on right now at Int, it would get major media attention. Especially if any of the three in the Marty video talked about how they were acting under duress and how DM is still running a concentration camp, etc. There would be a lot of people who would be very interested in that story and it would be rabidly popular, especially with clips of the airport video being shown to give them context. That sort of thing gets right back into the cult bubble world and it does make a difference.
Personally, I was only known about in the West US and while there weren't wholesale blows when I left and started speaking out, I know my speaking publicly made a difference and did reach some people still in the bubble. I think it's defeatist to think nothing can be done and there's no one who can make a difference and it's all hopeless. Of course we can still reach some people in the bubble world! C'mon guys!
Techless
Patron Meritorious
I totally agree with Chris!
Really anyone, I'm thinking, who leaves and speaks out has and can have a big impact. Most of the folks I've now seen on YToob I've never known about prior, especially the biggies in the organization. yet they did have a meaningful force on me, to shift gears.
It's seems to be the only game still 'working' here on planet earth: public opinion.
It can and does sway political mechanisms regardless of whether they actually have anything to do with the 'xyz' topic or not.
That's just how stupid the whole thing has gotten.
But it all does help! and sure: we'd all love for Mr./Mrs. bigwig to come out and speak up. Still could (actuallly will have to) happen though - just a time thing.
Fingers crossed -
Really anyone, I'm thinking, who leaves and speaks out has and can have a big impact. Most of the folks I've now seen on YToob I've never known about prior, especially the biggies in the organization. yet they did have a meaningful force on me, to shift gears.
It's seems to be the only game still 'working' here on planet earth: public opinion.
It can and does sway political mechanisms regardless of whether they actually have anything to do with the 'xyz' topic or not.
That's just how stupid the whole thing has gotten.
But it all does help! and sure: we'd all love for Mr./Mrs. bigwig to come out and speak up. Still could (actuallly will have to) happen though - just a time thing.
Fingers crossed -
David Miscavige perhaps. The machine of scn may be too strong for him to have an immediate lasting impact if someone replaced him.
If he blew and was taken to court his way out may be that he was not responsible for his actions because of the many years in scientologies mind control. So blame it on the dead man, Hubbard.
Scn will extinguish itself, as it is doing now. As staff diminishes others will see how futile it is for them to remain.
If he blew and was taken to court his way out may be that he was not responsible for his actions because of the many years in scientologies mind control. So blame it on the dead man, Hubbard.
Scn will extinguish itself, as it is doing now. As staff diminishes others will see how futile it is for them to remain.
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Free Being Me
Crusader
This this this! ^
Every Ex's voice counts no matter how small that voice may seem. Post on ESMB, OCMB, WWP, start a blog. Write government officials. Make a you tube video. Write a Kindle version biography expose. Talk with friends, family and neighbors. It's not about how a big a splash is made, it's that every drop counts sending out ripples of truth.
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Good twin
Floater
When Debbie Cook left it mattered. She did it with a splash and her email made a big difference. People knew her and recognized her from Flag and the Freewinds videos.
If Heber left and went public it would matter to old timers. He is still respected in a way that DM never will be.
As JB said, every staff member that leaves makes an impression.
If Heber left and went public it would matter to old timers. He is still respected in a way that DM never will be.
As JB said, every staff member that leaves makes an impression.
JustSheila
Crusader
GT! 
Funny... I was just thinking of you a few hours ago.
Funny... I was just thinking of you a few hours ago.
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
..
Perhaps.
But, then again, Scientologists are notorious for being able to not blink or react in any way when something "pushes their buttons".
Add to that the rather obvious fact that Scientologists (by definition) have a perilously low threshold of naiveté and/or gullibility, and thus even if COB himself blew, I don't think it would really take that much for Scn senior management to patch the hole in their rubber life rafts--and keep sailing to total freedom.
WTH am I talking about, right? LOL
If COB blew here's all they'd have to do. Hire Pat Broeker to fly in for an evening event and hold up his marketing gimmick (with a tiny edit).
Then Pat can say a few words about how Dave had to shed his encumbrance so he could do advanced research to free all beings in the universe.
The Scientologists in the audience will be blown away by such a long number and rise to their feet in a cheering, standing ovation. They will grin widely to one another with such reassuring comments as: "Wow that number is so theta!" and "Wow, that number totally indicates!"
Then people will begin "blowing charge". That's always a good sign.
ps: If months or years later photographs of Miscavige begin to surface from some remote island resort, the COS can easily handle Scientologists's complaints that he didn't really die. They need only state that it was a miracle of unprecedented magnitude that Captain Miscavige was resurrected from the dead--proof once again that the tech works!
Perhaps.
But, then again, Scientologists are notorious for being able to not blink or react in any way when something "pushes their buttons".
Add to that the rather obvious fact that Scientologists (by definition) have a perilously low threshold of naiveté and/or gullibility, and thus even if COB himself blew, I don't think it would really take that much for Scn senior management to patch the hole in their rubber life rafts--and keep sailing to total freedom.
WTH am I talking about, right? LOL
If COB blew here's all they'd have to do. Hire Pat Broeker to fly in for an evening event and hold up his marketing gimmick (with a tiny edit).
Then Pat can say a few words about how Dave had to shed his encumbrance so he could do advanced research to free all beings in the universe.
The Scientologists in the audience will be blown away by such a long number and rise to their feet in a cheering, standing ovation. They will grin widely to one another with such reassuring comments as: "Wow that number is so theta!" and "Wow, that number totally indicates!"
Then people will begin "blowing charge". That's always a good sign.
ps: If months or years later photographs of Miscavige begin to surface from some remote island resort, the COS can easily handle Scientologists's complaints that he didn't really die. They need only state that it was a miracle of unprecedented magnitude that Captain Miscavige was resurrected from the dead--proof once again that the tech works!
BunnySkull
Silver Meritorious Patron
I think one of the reasons DM has taken every exec "off-post" and is the ONLY guy who speaks at big international events is due to the harm a "big name" leaving could have. It's one thing to have a celebrity leave, it can be dismissed pretty easily and the fact they hold blackmail files and fear for their careers lessens the threat of a noisy departure somewhat.
However, a top level SO exec who is supposedly at the top of the food chain in privy to the best and most secret tech leaving is dangerous - even more dangerous if they are known to SO members as a OL. It's been said that seeing Rathbun give his interviews in the Truth Rundown was a big gut check for some long-time (SO and public) members who knew Marty was a top dog, iG, the head guy to get ethics in - AND HE LEFT AND IS SPEAKING OUT?!?
This is too dangers for DM, not to mention the knowledge they have of his behavior and activities. So he keeps them as powerless as possible and ensures they are never to closely identified with the organization in the minds of public or staff because if they blow - the damage is so much greater.
DM has in many ways taken any real power away from others in the SO to ensure everyone is easily replaceable and no one feels safe or secure in their post to create a power base. DM doesn't want any loyalty to anyone but himself. He only trust himself to be publicly identified with Scientology and as the only OL in the SO.
Just think about the secrecy that surrounds a typical low level SO blow. No one is allowed to talk about a blow - the cult lies to other SO members about where they went or what they are doing. I know someone who left the SO and three years later they ran into one of their former colleagues from the SO. They were shocked that the person came up and started chatting with them (They blew and were a DB in the eyes of SO). They discovered the person had no idea they had blown - they had been told they had been sent on a mission and then posted elsewhere. This was three years after their blow and the truth about their leaving still wasn't known to most of their old co-SO members at the same base! Imagine the lies and shore stories they create when a high-level INT exec blows!
This is quite a reversal for DM. In the early years I think he feared being seen as the "only leader" or even the leader - at least to the public and media. He saw the trouble LRH was in as being the figurehead - it puts a target on your back. It took about a decade for DM's ego to push him to be THE MAN in all respects (not just to the SO ranks). Once he did the target was on his back and his paranoia also kicked up a massive amount - he probably realized the position he was now in as a result of being identified in the media as "the leader" of Scientology (not just Author Services or CST which are the names of positions he claimed publicly early on before deciding to be COB to the world). I think is complete terror of being named in lawsuits or being deposed demonstrates his terror.
He so badly wanted the public recognition (and he probably hoped respect HA!) that his early rationale decision to be the secret power behind the throne (and put a scapegoat like Herber on the throne to take the arrows and lawsuits) got the best of him. His ego demanded he be seen as the big man (ha!) and now he lives in fear as a result. He will most likely end up much like Hubbard (if a sudden heart attack doesn't take him out) and his worst fears realized.
However, a top level SO exec who is supposedly at the top of the food chain in privy to the best and most secret tech leaving is dangerous - even more dangerous if they are known to SO members as a OL. It's been said that seeing Rathbun give his interviews in the Truth Rundown was a big gut check for some long-time (SO and public) members who knew Marty was a top dog, iG, the head guy to get ethics in - AND HE LEFT AND IS SPEAKING OUT?!?
This is too dangers for DM, not to mention the knowledge they have of his behavior and activities. So he keeps them as powerless as possible and ensures they are never to closely identified with the organization in the minds of public or staff because if they blow - the damage is so much greater.
DM has in many ways taken any real power away from others in the SO to ensure everyone is easily replaceable and no one feels safe or secure in their post to create a power base. DM doesn't want any loyalty to anyone but himself. He only trust himself to be publicly identified with Scientology and as the only OL in the SO.
Just think about the secrecy that surrounds a typical low level SO blow. No one is allowed to talk about a blow - the cult lies to other SO members about where they went or what they are doing. I know someone who left the SO and three years later they ran into one of their former colleagues from the SO. They were shocked that the person came up and started chatting with them (They blew and were a DB in the eyes of SO). They discovered the person had no idea they had blown - they had been told they had been sent on a mission and then posted elsewhere. This was three years after their blow and the truth about their leaving still wasn't known to most of their old co-SO members at the same base! Imagine the lies and shore stories they create when a high-level INT exec blows!
This is quite a reversal for DM. In the early years I think he feared being seen as the "only leader" or even the leader - at least to the public and media. He saw the trouble LRH was in as being the figurehead - it puts a target on your back. It took about a decade for DM's ego to push him to be THE MAN in all respects (not just to the SO ranks). Once he did the target was on his back and his paranoia also kicked up a massive amount - he probably realized the position he was now in as a result of being identified in the media as "the leader" of Scientology (not just Author Services or CST which are the names of positions he claimed publicly early on before deciding to be COB to the world). I think is complete terror of being named in lawsuits or being deposed demonstrates his terror.
He so badly wanted the public recognition (and he probably hoped respect HA!) that his early rationale decision to be the secret power behind the throne (and put a scapegoat like Herber on the throne to take the arrows and lawsuits) got the best of him. His ego demanded he be seen as the big man (ha!) and now he lives in fear as a result. He will most likely end up much like Hubbard (if a sudden heart attack doesn't take him out) and his worst fears realized.
eldritch cuckoo
brainslugged reptilian
Heh. Some of these "despised" critters, namely the usual suspect Pelomyxa palustris (German nickname: Schweinchenamöbe, piggy amoeba!), eat up the filter paper with which they got catched! Omnomnomnom! (At last my book says that.) That's dedication! Ever seen a disappointed space cootie eating up a Hubbard book they now consider stupid, or a devastating "personality test"? Huh?
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag...microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artsep01/amoeba.html
Even if Miscavige himself underwent a complete change of mind and personality, and as a result of that blew, became a fierce critic and spoke out highly critical about the cult, the over all impact he'd have would be somewhere between insignificant and negligible.
Why do I think so?
Because the structure of the cult and it's many "limbs" is highly diversified.
Example:
Even if NarCONon could be completely killed and eradicated worldwide today, CCHR, ABLE, or any other of these limbs immediately would temporarily take over it's role and play it until another limb has grown.
It's just like cutting off one head off of a hydra: Two more heads would grow back in it's place.
Yes, seeing that a former staff colleague and friend is now protesting from the other side of the fence, sure has some impact on some individuals, but it doesn't even touch the head of the hydra.
How to kill the Hydra?
I honestly don't know, but killing it by a gazillion of tiny little cuts from all possible angles seems to be the best option.
Sindy
Crusader
I believe every person who leaves takes at least one other person out with them.
Between my husband and myself we have had many people reach out to us under the radar. One person even ended up getting a 35K refund.
Any ED or other high ranking post, any well respected staff member leaving -- they all show people the glitch in the matrix. Every single staff member leaving could make a difference. Every one.
Each time the same lie gets told about how this or that person is now the big enemy, the more shopworn and less effective it becomes.
I see it as a game of Ker-Plunk. Remember that game? Okay, I'm old. In that game, you can take out lots of sticks before all the marbles fall (defeat) but when you get down to those last key sticks, each one makes a bigger impact and means more. I think that's where we're at...each defection means more now, not less, than it did before.
Edit: I will say that I believe it is more effective when one announces leaving, when people speak out and don't allow themselves to be disappeared. The person leaving has total control over that.
Between my husband and myself we have had many people reach out to us under the radar. One person even ended up getting a 35K refund.
Any ED or other high ranking post, any well respected staff member leaving -- they all show people the glitch in the matrix. Every single staff member leaving could make a difference. Every one.
Each time the same lie gets told about how this or that person is now the big enemy, the more shopworn and less effective it becomes.
I see it as a game of Ker-Plunk. Remember that game? Okay, I'm old. In that game, you can take out lots of sticks before all the marbles fall (defeat) but when you get down to those last key sticks, each one makes a bigger impact and means more. I think that's where we're at...each defection means more now, not less, than it did before.
Edit: I will say that I believe it is more effective when one announces leaving, when people speak out and don't allow themselves to be disappeared. The person leaving has total control over that.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
I actually think many would be glad to leave...but are so indoctrinated and fearful, they can't muster up the strength or even conceive of starting over in "the real world". They have been taught that the world is a degraded prison planet and "wogs" (all non-scientologists) are ignorant and evil. Many have burned their bridges with family and old friends, have no savings or other resources beyond COS, not even Social Security after decades of service in the Cult, and literally would not know where to go or what to do if suddenly released. Many would be reliant on social services in some way, and also on the kindness of strangers.
Fortunately, there are many people who have helped and will help Sea Org members and staff to leave Scientology, and to heal and adjust to the real world again.
More talk about the abuses at INT Base here at about 25:30
http://timestalks.com/detail-event.php?event=alex_gibney,_paul_haggis,_lawrence_wright
It's a panel discussion organized by the New York Times about the upcoming documentary film about Scientology entitled, "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief,” which premiered at Sundance this year and will air on HBO March 16th. [Edit~ new HBO air date is March 29th]
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eldritch cuckoo
brainslugged reptilian
It's a panel discussion organized by the New York Timesabout the upcoming documentary film about Scientology entitled, "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief,” which premiered at Sundance this year and will air on HBO March 16.
Small correction: "Going Clear" has been moved to March 29th, but only to get a "prime time" place - on Sunday evening.
There's a thread about that:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ch-29th-Watching-Party-Being-Organized-in-NYC
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Thanks for that correction!
I understand it is also going to have a limited theatrical release in New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco?
I do think we should organize viewing parties!
I understand it is also going to have a limited theatrical release in New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco?
I do think we should organize viewing parties!
La La Lou Lou
Crusader
Thanks for that correction!
I understand it is also going to have a limited theatrical release in New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco?
I do think we should organize viewing parties!
You know even if this film was never released the amount of discussion it has raised and the bad jokes and derision it has caused in the general public has to be creating highest ever entheta stats. I love it already!