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EVIL - I don't get it

RogerB

Crusader
I absolutely agree with you. There are land mines, hand grenades, & booby traps in the tech.

What I'm trying to point out is that there are people ''hit" on the whim of somebody in power. The person "hit" is a good person - sometimes and outstanding person - and all this is brought to bear by some senior.

With the wide variations of 'policy' for a single given act by one individual there is policy to support giving a kha khan - and also policy to make it merit being declared SP.

I always been of the opinion that anything can be done with policy as it just depends on whom is reading it and what they want to do with it.

Aside from the pitfalls and vagrancies inherit in the tek there is that snake in the woods that rears it's head and slaps down good people who have managed to avoid the perils - up until the blindside from a snake.

Ahh, the real question:D

In my observation, as one part of the answer observed, I'd say since the SO started running rampant (began in late 1967 . . . but has increasingly gotten worse since then) the whole thing of $cn has been driven down tone by abuse, and now the org personnel are operating out of fear and solutions to fear.

Senior, but not the very top, are fearful of getting hit if their areas are "down" . . . their solution? Brutalize and terrorize those below them.

When folks are operating in or out of fear they are irrational and routinely hit the wrong targets.

I collided with this at Flag in '82 when I questioned a (verbal) directive of an FSO staffer pointing out it was a violation of HCO Pol. . . her response was an insane reaction based on her fear of "not getting compliance" . . . . and I ended up on the slippery slope of Comm Evs-ville.

At that time in the mid '80's the entirety of org operations was irrational and insane . . . so of course you'll see evil.

Insanity and evil are twins :yes:

It was not that way pre-1967.

Rog
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
I experienced this.

In August 2000 I was "Student of the year", "Intern of the year" and "Auditor of the year" with commendations coming out of my butt. In March 2001 (6 months later) I'm expelled from the group and publicly vilified as a bad auditor, PTS declare, Illegal PC declare, comm eved. KR'd up the ying Yang and labeled an SP (not sure if I've ever been officially declared) and whatever else they came up with.

It always bugged me about David Mayo. If he was soooo bad then how did LRH not see this earlier. I mean he worked closely with the guy for years. How did he not spot this raging SP?
 
It always bugged me about David Mayo. If he was soooo bad then how did LRH not see this earlier. I mean he worked closely with the guy for years. How did he not spot this raging SP?

David Mayo: One of the nicest men, much less scientologists, I have ever met

Or course, I have never met "Ron", either. :whistling:


Mark A. Baker :)
 

paradox

ab intra silentio vera
<snip>

One of the things that began to really gnaw on me in my latter days in the SO and Scn was just how heartless a “Scientology Planet” might just turn out to be and was not a place I would want to live in.

Face:)

This is so an important truth for anyone to hear, in, out, or in between $cn and something else. "Might" (above) not being a valid option, for anyone with eyes sufficiently un-blindered to see, and a mind sufficiently filter-free.
 

Stat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Help me here. Help me understand how one snaps into being evil.

C'mon, you know what I mean. A person goes " up the bridge" feeling they have completed level by level, the CS agrees and they are "allowed" to attest.

A person is on post after post and does well enough to keep getting " pulled up the org board".

Then whamo, one day it is " discovered" that all along this person has been EVIL and fooled absolutely everyone for years and years with all those false attests and false stats.

And, by golly, even though their area was "upstat" way over yonder that crash was mysteriuosly caused by this newly found EVIL person.

And, yep, there are far far more of these evil people that have to be weeded out than anyone ever suspected.


The most highly trained tek people? SP's!
The most loyal SO members? SP's
The most trained admin staff? ? SP's
The most highly processed public? Sp's

The more training and the more processing one gets the more likely they are going to be discovered as an SP.


This all makes sense.........right?

"Read the book The Lucifer Effect, or find a video from the author entited "Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil".
It's a shocking video, but it shows how decent people can be persuaded to do the most terrible things to others while in a bad
environment and under bad influence. It also shows how some people came to their senses and put a stop to the terrible
real-life events going on."


I do not remember where I snipped it from and I didn't look into it myself yet.
I just saved it on my desktop as a Notepad thingy for later. I thought it was important enough.
So I share.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
I experienced this.

In August 2000 I was "Student of the year", "Intern of the year" and "Auditor of the year" with commendations coming out of my butt. In March 2001 (6 months later) I'm expelled from the group and publicly vilified as a bad auditor, PTS declare, Illegal PC declare, comm eved. KR'd up the ying Yang and labeled an SP (not sure if I've ever been officially declared) and whatever else they came up with.

It always bugged me about David Mayo. If he was soooo bad then how did LRH not see this earlier. I mean he worked closely with the guy for years. How did he not spot this raging SP?


I had a bankers box full of KRs on me when I left.

And David Mayo? At the time he was declared the OT VI coursesheet was HANDWRITTEN by him. Was anybody that did that checksheet have to re-do on another one? Was anybody auditing on OT VII his version called back and re-issued something else? No. How I do I know ? I was AT flag when he was declared just as I finished OT VI.

So, how bad was Mayo ? Not at all.

And he CS'd me for awhile - and he was damn sure better than most.

Going from fair haired darling to red headed illegitimate step child happens overnight.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Scientology itself is the real evil. From this perspective, it becomes clear why Scientology would want to expel any element of good from within. The application of the term "evil" to those it expels masks the actual source - as Goebbels said, if you're going to tell a lie, tell a big one.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
In my observation, as one part of the answer observed, I'd say since the SO started running rampant (began in late 1967 . . . but has increasingly gotten worse since then) the whole thing of $cn has been driven down tone by abuse, and now the org personnel are operating out of fear and solutions to fear.

Who knows when the physical abuse started - but, sure, Hubbard certainly codified it when he established the GO/SO to carry out his instructions. But look back even earlier. The use of fear was a prime motivating factor for Hubbard a decade earlier when he was battling "psychs". Without its "enemies" to fear and loathe, Scientology might never have got off the ground. And, from its very beginnings, fear that the planet might never be "saved" has always been at the heart of the Scientology mindset.
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
Come on guys. We all know the real why. The evil psychs PDH'd all those
people so they would infiltrate and destroy Scn. When that didn't work the evil pdh'd ones, blew due to their own overts.:duh::duh::duh:
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Who knows when the physical abuse started - but, sure, Hubbard certainly codified it when he established the GO/SO to carry out his instructions. But look back even earlier. The use of fear was a prime motivating factor for Hubbard a decade earlier when he was battling "psychs". Without its "enemies" to fear and loathe, Scientology might never have got off the ground. And, from its very beginnings, fear that the planet might never be "saved" has always been at the heart of the Scientology mindset.

From first hand observation and experience, the verbal, emotional, psychic and physical abuse sequentially ratcheted up DRAMATICALLY with the implementations of Ethics Conditions, Awards and Penances, PTS/SP “Tech”, GO, SO and OT 111.

Face :)
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
From first hand observation and experience, the verbal, emotional, psychic and physical abuse sequentially ratcheted up DRAMATICALLY with the implementations of Ethics Conditions, Awards and Penances, PTS/SP “Tech”, GO, SO and OT 111.

Face :)

Hi Face

Sorry to hear of your ailments, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

With one exception, I accept what you say, and thank you for taking the time to do so. Where I quibble is with the "psychic" abuse. From my perspective, that abuse started the moment the first person ever picked up the cans for "Auditing". The first "Clear", a woman introduced as Sonia Bianca, was presented to the world on August 10, 1950. That pre-dates the other abuse by nearly two decades. Just a few years later, the University of New York debunked Dianetics altogether, so I could accept that there was no scientific evidence to confirm Hubbard was being abusive prior to that date. In the intervening, say, 12 years, Scientology/Dianetics exploded and so would have the psychic abuse, if you accept my viewpoint. But, as you say, all the abuse accelerated once it had been codified.
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi Face

Sorry to hear of your ailments, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

With one exception, I accept what you say, and thank you for taking the time to do so. Where I quibble is with the "psychic" abuse. From my perspective, that abuse started the moment the first person ever picked up the cans for "Auditing". The first "Clear", a woman introduced as Sonia Bianca, was presented to the world on August 10, 1950. That pre-dates the other abuse by nearly two decades. Just a few years later, the University of New York debunked Dianetics altogether, so I could accept that there was no scientific evidence to confirm Hubbard genuinely believed he wasn't be abusive prior to that date.

Thanks for the "best wishes"...much appreciated...I'm gonna hurry along as fast as I can but don't be needin' to take no shortcuts.

No quibble here, pardner.

I completely agree with your clarrification. I was kinda alludiing to what you say by the phrase, "ratcheted up DRAMATICALLY"....the abuses were already "laced in" long before there were any soup cans to pick up.

Face:)
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Who knows when the physical abuse started - but, sure, Hubbard certainly codified it when he established the GO/SO to carry out his instructions. But look back even earlier. The use of fear was a prime motivating factor for Hubbard a decade earlier when he was battling "psychs". Without its "enemies" to fear and loathe, Scientology might never have got off the ground. And, from its very beginnings, fear that the planet might never be "saved" has always been at the heart of the Scientology mindset.

Did LRH bust Otto Roos in the chops before or after overboarding started?
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
These are excellent questions.

It was not this single belief alone that led to the “last straw” but one of many…along with personal interaction with El Ron, working in the “inner circle” and seeing first hand numerous orgs, interacting with public from top Mission Holders and Celebs all the way to Newbies. I was, of and on, privy to stuff that most SO, let alone public, knew nothing about and a “Gump” in the immediate crowd when some of the “Landmark/Watershed events happened from ’mid to late sixties to the early to mid ‘80’s.

Eventually I will complete posting “my story”—“What I Bought Into and Why”—here on ESMB but, due to circumstances, it will probably many, many months before I complete that task. I have already extensively posted much about my overall “Take” on my life and times with El Ron, SO, Scn and the “Tech”.

Specifically to your questions:

My whole time in Scn and the SO was one of a balancing factor. I never bought in to “Clearing the Planet” per se…I had some experiences in my early auditing that were…and still are…significant. I had things happen with me that non Scns, even people that were anti Scn observed and went, “wow”. I now know realize that I was a seeker, a reacher, a quester, a person that aspired to “Walk the Earth” and “stuff” was most probably bound to happen with and to me anyway but, as I was a young, well educated and literally “off the farm” young adult, I attributed my “realizations” to Scn, “The Tech” and perforce to El Ron.

All I ever wanted was to learn, to know, to understand and help others and to help make a better world and life for humanity. I wanted to be part of and contribute to something “good”, worthwhile and I damn sure wanted everyone to have the opportunity to “feel” what it’s like to have “realizations” such as I had had. That’s what the “Lever” was to the “balancing factor” (perfect phrase) that I struggled with throughout all my years “in”.

In the interest of my wish for anonymity at this time, I’m not going to detail the road I walked and every specific about what led me to walk away but I will relate briefly, and have said in more detail in past posts on ESMB, much about this.

Most importantly for purposes of this discussion is that I worked with and knew El Ron, personally. And, I either worked with or knew personally and interacted with Mary Sue, Capt. Bill, Urq, Mayo, Rinder, Rathbun and Da Monster.
I will not try and speak for another SO member…I can only speak for myself. I believe that the concept of “tipping points” is real…has to do with “self ordered critically, fractal geometry and chaos theory”, which I will refrain from discussing at this time. IMO, we all have our own “tipping point”. I know I did and, when it happened, NOTHING BUT NOTHING was going to stand in my way. Although “despondent and desperate” at that moment, an ethereal almost “mystical” calm and clarity set in and I “structured and designed” my walking away—went through some real bad shit coming out but, by the Grace of this Universe and some real decent, patient and kind folks (which are IMO the Grace of this Universe) I made it and the rest, as they say, is history.

Personally I don’t think there is anyone—including El Ron and Da Moster—that doesn’t know, to a greater or lesser degree, that there are “holes” and worse, much worse, in Scn, “The Red Tech and Green Tech” and the entire construct. The “squirrel cage” (pun intended) is that part of the “Tech” is that if it’s not working on you or for it’s ultimately “your fault”; if it’s not working in the orgs it’s “their fault”; if it’s not working for someone else it’s “their fault”: it it’s not working in the World it’s the “Worlds fault”.

So, “If an SO member said to you that s/he sees the bad points in Scientology but is ...*clearing the planet*..How would you counter that reasoning?”

I might ask, “Have you ever thought about the concept, ‘The end justifies the means’?” Depends completely on the circumstance and circumstance is all about that moment and its existing pent-up context for each individual party involved in that Dialogue.

There is no Silver Bullet, Red Pill or Blue Pill.

I see “tipping points” as random, progressive and chaotically sequential. I wouldn’t “counter that reasoning” re “clearing the planet”. I would listen and question, depending upon what I have patiently gleaned as my “take” on the persons “frame of reference” from my own “frame of reference”. I wouldn’t seek to be a “tipping point”. I would wish only to have the opportunity to maybe be a “grain of sand” that adds to the self ordered criticality of their “pile” and my “pile” that may, or maybe not, lead to some form of “shift”. I personally would wish to hopefully be a “sign post” on their way out of the Labyrinth; I would never aspire to be “The Signpost”.

SO members have lived secluded, hectic, frenetic and chaotic lives of enforced “context” by others, inadvertant self enforced "context", enforcing “context” on others and inadvertantly enforcing "context" on others and making pthers do same. The last thing they need is another “severe reality adjustment” or probing quasi “Sec Check” or “finger” pointed at them.

Face:)

Thank you very much for your answer, very informative and interesting. I will look forward to reading more of your story when you are ready. I know I have missed some threads your posts have been in.

I understand completely about being a sign post and not The Sign Post. Subtle and calm and consistent goes a longer way than in your face lecturing.
I believe there is value in everyone posting, even if it is questioning, the post could contain the exact phrase someone uses on Google and start the looking process.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you very much for your answer, very informative and interesting. I will look forward to reading more of your story when you are ready. I know I have missed some threads your posts have been in.

I understand completely about being a sign post and not The Sign Post. Subtle and calm and consistent goes a longer way than in your face lecturing.
I believe there is value in everyone posting, even if it is questioning, the post could contain the exact phrase someone uses on Google and start the looking process.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::yes::yes::yes:
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
El Ron sorta busted Otto in the chops...it was more like Ruth Buzzy flailing away with her purse.:eyeroll:

It was after the overboardings.

Face:)

Thanks and I like the Ruth Buzzy flailing :roflmao:

The poor man always struck me as acting like an old screaming queen but that seems a highly unpopular view of that fat toothless old psycho.
 
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