Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tech

[degraded being]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes continued use of Scientology Admin and Ethics tech, as well as conspiracy theories.

While perhaps not surprising given the fact he is a founding member of Milestone Two, Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes the continued use of Scientology Admin and Ethics Tech.

Perhaps marginally more surprising, he also promotes conspiracy theories. SNIPPED
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Last sentence: Not really, not even marginally.

 

[degraded being]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Based on my (admittedly limited) experience the admin tech for a small business or organization can be 'better than nothing' but that's about it. I can understand why people who have no business training but run businesses get into things like WISE because they may be the best dentist in the world but that doesn't mean they know how to manage people or a business, it's a totally different skill set and yet many professions like dentists, doctors, optometrists, etc. find themselves in this position and usually run their businesses very haphazardly so things like WISE can help them.

I think they would be much better off buying Starbucks management training books off ebay or something (I would imagine you can find them someplace though I've never looked) - Starbucks has _excellent_ internal business management training.

The admin tech doesn't scale well, in my opinion, up or down. In a small organization you end up with too much overhead and in a large organization you end up with extreme divisionalization.

Doesn't make their coffee taste any better.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

In some instance this would certainly be the case. But here is kind of an example of what I mean:

* You could strongly pattern-match before having any empirical data that the NSA is spying on you based on complex social patterns and so on. You may not have any idea of how to go about even providing credible evidence though and end up fumbling around in the dark trying to find evidence for what you already know to be absolutely true.

vs

* You could get a slight hint that maybe you possibly being spied on by the NSA and have the reasoning capacity to begin investigating the issue yourself and collecting your own data and going through it as a deductive process - all prior to having ever strongly pattern matched on it so that you are not _sure_ that its happening, but suspect it might be and looking for evidence one way or another.

I'm saying that many people believe the second of these to be the natural state for people and that people who experience the first of those to have diminished reasoning capacity but I don't believe this to be the case because I believe most people would have never pattern-matched on this at all. In my opinion, the first example is someone who a more acute sense of pattern detection than the average person but an average ability to critically reason about their pattern matching. The second group would be higher than average on both. I don't believe these to be absolutes though, and its quite likely that people fall into one group on some topic and the other group on others and the 'average non-pattern-matching' group on most topics.

Humans have, in my opinion, an _amazing_ capacity to pattern match. We are able to recognize extremely un-obvious patterns in extremely complex systems but because we don't always know _why_ we recognize a pattern there is often a gap between recognition and rational analysis.

OK but there are never just two models with their various subsets. Hubbard broke peoples pattern matching by heading it off at the pass and issuing directives that one could never speak of the evils of the cult, he killed it in it's tracks. So which category would that fit in or is that a 3rd model - that which develops in the void created by the suppression of the other two models?

 

[kate8024]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

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[uniquemand]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Hubbard's "reactive mind" (a=a=a, sic) is just a rewording of Pavlov's associative chains concepts mixed with Freud's abreactive analysis. Of course "pattern recognition" is involved, and would remind you of Hubbard's stuff. Hubbard ripped off some bright minds!

 

[kate8024]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

-deleted-

 

[jea-su]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Suggestion: Go to the New Members Introduction section - toward the top of the MB - and start a thread introducing yourself, and describing your experiences and wins within Scientology.

Dear Sir, I am so sorry. I have completely ignored you. I have no words. Go to ..... and start to ..... and describing ..... and wins ..... are you in any way connected to DM? Sir!!! You really need to do your introduction.. I am really shocked after 7 years "communicating" still in Non-Ex. That is the reason why Scientology doesn't work. The Non Ex formula is a scam.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Well research into neural networks certainly suggests that humans are wired for pattern recognition and this has nothing directly to do with anything LRH wrote. For example I can write a very simple artificial neural network of 6 or so artificial neurons that take two numbers as an input and give me one as an output. If I ask it for the output of, say:

1, 2

and maybe it gives me 3 and I tell it wrong, so it tells me 4, and I tell it wrong and so on until it gives me the answer I expect. Each time I tell it wrong it will adjust the 'synaptic weight' values linking the neurons. Then I repeat this process until any two numbers I give it will give me the expected result most of the time. At this point it will be able to correctly respond without having any idea whatsoever of how it gets the right answer. Perhaps the formula I was applying for what the right answers are is something like (first+second/36^9-second) but you wouldn't find that formula anywhere in the computer's memory, you would only have the weights of the synapses connecting the neurons. Thus you have a system that knows the right answer without having any idea how it gets the right answer. It takes separate systematic introspection to figure out how it got the right answer and that's something computers are _really_ bad at currently.

My understanding of pattern recognition has been that it's our basal means of learning especially as babies when we have no language skills to utilize in making our way in the world and that it's by no means an infallible model. It's more of a stepping stone to reason. All the neural componentry I won't comment on other than to say "isn't that what drugs are meant to override"?
Don't mention any of that down at the org or they might suspect you're a psychiatrist, then you'll get your chance to experience conspiracy theorists in the first person.

ps: Peace by the way!

 

[kate8024]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

-deleted-

 

[Free Being Me]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

I am looking what is being reported in this forum. I am comparing it with my own experience and wins within Scientology. The only conclusion I came up with is that very few of you have really grasped what Scientology is all about. It seams that basic like ARC, Understanding, Self Determinism, Think for Yourself , Data Analysis, Ethics conditions, Postulate, Games etc. are not applied but Scientology is a scam. It seams that all the bad things that are happening around us are coincidental and not created. Bad things ? Those are only conspiracy theories

 

[DagwoodGum]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

I think there is a difference in the way we are speaking, I'm sorry. I was trying to speak about pattern matching and conspiracy theories as a general topic rather than how it related to LRH or Scientology (other than a loose connection to some auditing processes). You are talking about development of what I would consider suppression neural circuits that suppress the results from probably still active pattern recognition due to such pattern recognition not being favorable for the person within their current environment.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the theory presented above was some all-encompassing universal theory of the psychology of pattern recognition and conspiracy theories either. It's just something I was throwing out there to see if someone had some counter opinions since it's something for which I don't have strongly held opinions but rather an in-progress hypothesis development.

OK, I see. I was connecting the dots due to this being an ex scientologist message board and your intense interest in what is for most of us a dead end subject. Now, is it worth playing the corporate raider and dissembling, parting out and using what remains of it? I don't know. I know that you believe so and you may be right that there are kernals of truth in it that one can use going forward. But it's a high wire act over an abyss in that it could land someone right back in it.

 

[kate8024]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

-deleted-

 

[DagwoodGum]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Do you mean the possibility of reform? If so it is an interesting subject to me but not one I generally mention here unless I'm asked and even then I tend just to leave it at "I believe its still possible". It's certainly not something I constantly bring up on my own. I certainly don't advocate anyone else doing what I'm doing. If they want to it's their decision but I would never suggest that anyone else do it (unless maybe I'm talking to a currently very-in Scientologist as I'd rather them either start working toward reform (even if only in very small ways) or leave than stay in their current state - but still that's their choice ultimately).

I'm sorry but reform is not possible in that Hubbard booby trapped that too by covering every aspect in policy format that cannot be unwritten. He's the only one that can countermand a previous directive with a new one and he's gone bye bye. Being that most of his directives are doublespeake the current management can pull anything out of their hats or asses as the case may be and do whatever they want except reform. If Scientology works it's incidental to it's money grubbing primary purpose as stated when he said "the way to make a million dollars is to start your own religion". People should have red flag that one, big time! That's just one of many the little factoids that I compiled when I built my case for heading for the door.
Now you could join the attempt to put a reformed version together as is being done in the Freezone but I've never been over there so I don't know how that's going, again I defer to Terril.

 

[kate8024]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

-deleted-

 

[Anonycat]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes continued use of Scientology Admin and Ethics tech, as well as conspiracy theories.

While perhaps not surprising given the fact he is a founding member of Milestone Two, Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes the continued use of Scientology Admin and Ethics Tech. Perhaps marginally more surprising, he also promotes conspiracy theories.

From the South African Independent Scientology blog, Scientologists getting back in comm:

Group Engram
https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/group-engram/
Excerpts: EDITED TO ADD:

Conceptually related thread: Recruiting for the religious order of the Church of Scientology, The Sea Organization
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...he-Church-of-Scientology-The-Sea-Organization

.

I have heard of this before - free zoners with an ethics officer, and maybe other positions too. And definitely the crazy conspiracy stuff. I'm surprised that there is another place where someone is doing that too, but it's hard for some people to get it out of their heads.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Sure I realize most here don't share my opinion that it can be reformed and many don't even think it should be even if its possible but rather believe it should just die, period. I have no problem that this is something I have a different opinion on and it's why I don't generally bring up the topic of reform unless I'm asked about my status with the church or directly about reform. I don't think I'm going to change anyone's minds here about it and this isn't my target audience for changing minds anyway. The people whose minds I'd like to change are the ones that are very 'in' the church without critically evaluating what goes on around them.

If you believe you can make a big impact along those lines you really don't understand the "church".

 

[kate8024]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

-deleted-

 

[DagwoodGum]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Sure I realize most here don't share my opinion that it can be reformed and many don't even think it should be even if its possible but rather believe it should just die, period. I have no problem that this is something I have a different opinion on and it's why I don't generally bring up the topic of reform unless I'm asked about my status with the church or directly about reform. I don't think I'm going to change anyone's minds here about it and this isn't my target audience for changing minds anyway. The people whose minds I'd like to change are the ones that are very 'in' the church without critically evaluating what goes on around them.

You'll only find yourself sec checked to death, all at your expense by the way, which will push your attainment of the grade chart back to square one. Look out back for the wood pile of reformists who've come before you. You didn't think that you're the first one to attempt it did you? Lots of us tried in our own ways.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

I never said I am trying to make a 'big impact'. I'm trying to make a small impact.

I doubt you'd be able to have a significant impact as an outsider.

I know that this isn't the "Ask Kate a Question" thread, but could you give me an example of the type of small impact you'd like to make?

 

[uniquemand]

Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Internal reform is probably impossible. External reform among people who've left the Church is possible, but I don't know how they'd come to common agreement. If they stick to "Green on White" they'll just end up recreating the current Frankenstein. If they don't, then how will they decide which policies to follow and which to leave behind, or who will make the new policy, etc. I think, as an intellectual exercise for Independents, it's worth thinking about.