Which is Worse? Scientology or Psychiatry . . .

[Teanntás]

Thanks Trouble. There is a fair amount of debate about him being one. My judgement is that if you cannot do without it and you drink inappropriately, then you definitely have a problem. Most likely you are an alcoholic. The level of sobriety is somewhat irrelevant. Alcoholics come up with all sorts of excuses to normalise their habits.

Nothing wrong with a drink or two, just what control it has over you is the question. Hitchens certainly had a drinking problem.

A bit of background about him: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...a-sober-perception-however-much-he-drank.html

I would think he was always sober because he was such a seasoned drinker. I doubt he would have been able to pass any breath tests.

I do remember the movie about the English lady (a social worker) who came to Western Australia and exposed the abuses of the Catholic priests on young boys who were stolen from England. Good Catholics everywhere really turned on her too.

That story about the children here:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-land-of-lost-children-20110611-1fy4w.html

http://www.smh.com.au/national/i-can-still-hear-the-kids-screams-20110611-1fyap.html

I used to work with one of those former kids. Said things, but not a lot. It was pretty obvious it still affected him.

I am no supporter of the Catholic Church, but I sort of understand their thinking. It isn't quite as simple as Hitchens makes it out to be, but he isn't exactly wrong either. Your viewpoint would depend on how you can see another person's way of thinking.

Stephen Fry made his case in this speech he did some years back, said it well:

I still sometimes wonder which one of scientology or the catholics were the bigger evil.

Galileo was not tortured. He spent one day in prison (I'm sure he was treated better than people in the Hole) and then he was released into 'villa arrest' (house arrest). Stephen Fry is fast and loose with the facts. Thomas More was no saint but he did not put people on the rack for merely possessing a Bible in English.

On the broader question much more evil has been committed by the Church than by Scientology - the Scientologists haven't had the same opportunities.

 

[The_Fixer]

Yep, the Catholics have had more time to refine their abuses and have gained a wider audience.

They managed to capture their core audience when mankind was still pretty ignorant.

Stephen Fry may have been mistaken on some points, but the gist of his argument still applies.

 

[TomKat]

"New research estimates about one in six American adults takes at least one psychiatric drug over the course of a year."

A couple of years ago I heard that 25% of women are on some kind of psych med. Do you realize the full implications of that? 75% OF WOMEN ARE OFF THEIR MEDS!

 

[Bill]

I think LRH's "scheme" for getting rid of the "psychs" was hilarious. He had Scientologists become "psych busters" and locate all the worst psychiatrists who were abusing their patients and getting them removed.

Which helped clean up the whole psychiatric profession and greatly improved their image...
... the exact opposite from what he wanted to do.

If he'd been smart, he would have figured out how to get rid of the good ones.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Well the thing that Scientology wants you to not realize in a debate like this is that if psychiatry is a fraud, then so is Scientology, because that is what it is - it IS psychiatry - although a rather outdated and superficial "Freudian" form of it - but ESSENTIALLY it is the same. Which isn't to say that if a scientologist couldn't help you then neither can a psychiatrist. Because as has been said, there are always some bad apples, and while Scientology wants you to believe that all the bad apples are among psychiatrists, that isn't how it is, because you have good and bad people in every group of people - it's just that in Scientology, their leader is one of the bad apples, whereas in psychiatry there is no single leader, so you can always go to someone else. And it isn't like Scientology claims that psychiatry would be all about prescribing drugs. Have you ever seen a Scientologist prescribe a single drug? Yet all of what Scientologists do is simple based on (Hubbard's superficial understanding of) Freud. If you are so afraid of being prescribed medicine, then go to a psychologist instead of a psychiatrist and you can be sure to never ever be prescribed a single pill either.

If Scientology killed a PC (e.g. Lisa McPherson, by forbidding medication) then it's one lone, unavoidable anomaly, due in no part whatsoever to Scientology or Scientologists.

If Psychiatry killed one patient (e.g. with medication) then it's all psychiatrists murdering all patients, all of the time (e.g. now and previously, for endless trillions of wholetrack years).

The really unimaginable part is that Scientologists endlessly strive to achieve a delusional trance where their own ideas exactly match those of the severely mentally ill, delusionally paranoid sociopath L. Ron Hubbard.

.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Galileo was not tortured. He spent one day in prison (I'm sure he was treated better than people in the Hole) and then he was released into 'villa arrest' (house arrest). Stephen Fry is fast and loose with the facts. Thomas More was no saint but he did not put people on the rack for merely possessing a Bible in English.

On the broader question much more evil has been committed by the Church than by Scientology - the Scientologists haven't had the same opportunities.

The RCC had a seventeen century headstart.

I am entirely confident CoS can outdo them in evil if they cn just gain the necessary political clout

 

[Clay Pigeon]

You act as though Co$ organizations have nothing to do with Hubbard's work.

All the criminal activity and abusive actions originating within CoS is a result of Hubbard's writings. All of it. He is the creator of all the policies that indoctrinate Scientologists in such a way so they believe they're acting ethically when they seek to destroy another human being, cover up rapes, abuse of children, and disconnect from their own children, parents, siblings, lifelong friends.

It is my observation that most of the bad conduct (very little of it actually criminal; actual de jure crimes can be prosecuted) by Co$ is from bad application of policy. For instance, early on as a staff member I got to read "The Admin Scale". It has Goals and Purposes up at the top. The lowest entry is "Ideal Scenes" and just above that is "Statistics". I read that and looked around, and again FCDC in the early seventies was one of the best CLIV orgs anywhere ever, and said to myself "The tail is wagging the dog in this joint"

Rotten Co$ conduct is the product of rotten Co$ personnel and ignorant personnel obeying rotten personnel.

Which is not to say I don't find flaws with Hubbard's work but even at that I find no flaws which cannot be remedied with other writings of Hubbard. Proper ideals are articulated often in the writings of LRH along with instructions for implementing them

 

[Clay Pigeon]

If Scientology killed a PC (e.g. Lisa McPherson) then it's one lone, unavoidable anomaly, due in no part whatsoever to Scientology or Scientologists.

If Psychiatry killed one patient (e.g. with medication) then it's all psychiatrists murdering all patients, all of the time (e.g. now and previously, for endless trillions of wholetrack years).

The really unimaginable part is that Scientologists endlessly strive to achieve a delusional trance where their own ideas exactly match those of the severely mentally ill, delusionally paranoid sociopath L. Ron Hubbard.

.

Puh-leeeeze HH...

Psychiatry has killed and crippled somewhat more than a single human being.

Furthermore it is the "suppressive" who talks in generalities. Co$ apparently, now and always has loads of executives who just have no feel for nectar and ambrosia of the work.

If this were not so I'd be there instead of here

 

[Terril park]

"New research estimates about one in six American adults takes at least one psychiatric drug over the course of a year."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/psychiatric-drugs-study-reveals-widespread-use-women-men/

It seems to me that despite Scientology's abusive practices , they become close to irrelevant ( and will become more so) when we discuss the field of mental health.

Scientology is not psychiatry it is a psychotherapy. Big difference.

 

[The_Fixer]

The RCC had a seventeen century headstart.

I am entirely confident CoS can outdo them in evil if they cn just gain the necessary political clout

The church also controlled the state, often overruling the ruling monarchs at the time.
They also had absolute control over the general populace.

Edited to add: The monarchs had to behave too, or the church would have them either removed and/or punished. Even Henry VIII once was whipped (spanked, really) for disobedience against the church doctrines.

No one dared criticise or act against the church unless they were willing to face torture and/or a gruesome death.

This continued pretty much on a declining scale up to the 1960's. The torture and death aspect faded off in the 1800's.

Wow, this really sounds familiar. Imagine scientology wielding that much power....

 

[pineapple]

The RCC had a seventeen century headstart.

I am entirely confident CoS can outdo them in evil if they cn just gain the necessary political clout

Hubbard would have loved to have that much power. He did write to Forrest J. Ackerman, "I haven't decided whether to destroy the Catholic Church or merely start a new one." Hubbard was much more candid about his motives in the early days.
https://tonyortega.org/2014/10/23/l...-a-friend-the-real-reason-he-wrote-dianetics/

And you may remember this one:

"Somebody some day will say ‘this is illegal.’ By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not."
- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 4 January 1966, "LRH Relationship to Orgs"

This is Hubbard. He is the "Source" of the evil in CoS.

 

[Type4_PTS]

It is my observation that most of the bad conduct (very little of it actually criminal; actual de jure crimes can be prosecuted) by Co$ is from bad application of policy. For instance, early on as a staff member I got to read "The Admin Scale". It has Goals and Purposes up at the top. The lowest entry is "Ideal Scenes" and just above that is "Statistics". I read that and looked around, and again FCDC in the early seventies was one of the best CLIV orgs anywhere ever, and said to myself "The tail is wagging the dog in this joint"

Rotten Co$ conduct is the product of rotten Co$ personnel and ignorant personnel obeying rotten personnel.

Which is not to say I don't find flaws with Hubbard's work but even at that I find no flaws which cannot be remedied with other writings of Hubbard. Proper ideals are articulated often in the writings of LRH along with instructions for implementing them

The bad conduct is a result of the correct application of policy.

The policies on Fair Game, Disconnection, treatment of children as if they're adults in little bodies, regges hard-selling customers to the point of bankruptcy, preventing Scientologists from reporting crimes directly to the police if the perpetrator was another Scientologist in good standing, were all authored by Hubbard!

On top of those destructive policies he lied his ass off about the tech. The CoS cannot deliver what he promised it could for decades, so that amounts to fraudulent marketing. (Hubbard couldn't even fix his OWN mental and spiritual issues)

As a Hubbard Apologist you try your best to relieve him of responsibility for all the bad stuff. Yet, Hubbard himself would acknowledge that HE is responsible for all the bad stuff. That is if he believed what he wrote on the subject of "Full Responsibility".

 

[Clay Pigeon]

The bad conduct is a result of the correct application of policy.

The policies on Fair Game, Disconnection, treatment of children as if they're adults in little bodies, regges hard-selling customers to the point of bankruptcy, preventing Scientologists from reporting crimes directly to the police if the perpetrator was another Scientologist in good standing, were all authored by Hubbard!

On top of those destructive policies he lied his ass off about the tech. The CoS cannot deliver what he promised it could for decades, so that amounts to fraudulent marketing. (Hubbard couldn't even fix his OWN mental and spiritual issues)

As a Hubbard Apologist you try your best to relieve him of responsibility for all the bad stuff. Yet, Hubbard himself would acknowledge that HE is responsible for all the bad stuff. That is if he believed what he wrote on the subject of "Full Responsibility".

there's too much validity to your opening sentence to say that isn't so.

Hubbard's dead. He's no longer responsible for jack shit.

And...

I didn't just read his parting decology, I listened to it, heart to heart with the writer. It was his confession (among several other things) and he used a familiar literary device to identify Jesus of Nazareth as Lord. As a lawfully ordained christian minister I accept his confession and recommend to the higher court his Absolution. I am grateful to him for the good ideas he passed on and the lame rotten crap he pedaled don't get past my desk and didn't get past my desk when I was a staff member either; tightrope walker doing Ali's rope-a-dope.

Can't say I'm pleased with being tagged as Ron's apologist but I suppose I fit the dictionary definition

 

[The_Fixer]

Hubbard was involved in Satanism and the occult as scientology was or was about to start up. His friends were Jack Parsons and Alastair Crowley, although it is claimed they never actually met each other... https://ac2012.com/2012/08/05/aleister-crowley-myths-actually-true/

Hubbard's interest were basically anti Christian and anti semitic, so I fail to see where he would have made any homage to this, except to get these people in and turn them.

You have to get pretty high up in scientology to find out that Christianity is an implant and has no basis in reality. But you need to be pretty well indoctrinated to accept all that. That's why it is only revealed high up on the bridge.

I guess Hubbard was fairly confused himself, as why would you deal with the Satan's stuff if you had no belief in the Christian's philosophy? It would all be an irrelevant argument as you couldn't have any belief in one without some sort of belief in the other. That's just my thoughts there.

I would say that scientology would have been created with his core beliefs in mind, that being of Satanism of sorts. Despite everything else that may appear of a positive nature, even the Bible warns to beware of false gods and messiahs. It is where their hearts lie, not what they have to say that matters.

 

[JackStraw]

I read his book about Mother Teresa too ("The Missionary Position") it was pretty shocking and he certainly pointed out some very negative traits and underhanded dealings but as I recall, they were always backed up with facts.

I really appreciated and liked him and wish he was still here, he never did do PC and we need more intelligent people to point out the BS and in many cases the fear tactics that emanate from religions across the boards. He was one of the best at doing that, he was fearless and very clear when he argued his well researched points ... he was funny too.

RIP Hitch.

Here's a whole "terrible trio" for you.

Jack

 

[pineapple]

Hubbard was involved in Satanism and the occult as scientology was or was about to start up. His friends were Jack Parsons and Alastair Crowley, although it is claimed they never actually met each other... https://ac2012.com/2012/08/05/aleister-crowley-myths-actually-true/

In the interests of accuracy, Parsons and Crowley were not Satanists. Occultists, black magicians yes, but Satanists no. And though Hubbard referred to Crowley in a lecture as "my very good friend," they never met. Hubbard was greatly exaggerating the extent of their relationship. Crowley was over in England while Hubbard was hanging with Parsons in California, and nearing the end of his life. He died in December 1947.

 

[programmer_guy]

In the interests of accuracy, Parsons and Crowley were not Satanists. Occultists, black magicians yes, but Satanists no. And though Hubbard referred to Crowley in a lecture as "my very good friend," they never met. Hubbard was greatly exaggerating the extent of their relationship. Crowley was over in England while Hubbard was hanging with Parsons in California, and nearing the end of his life. He died in December 1947.

Yes. Crowley would make a sarcastic comment about himself being 666 toward christians who didn't like him.
This did not mean that Crowley was saying he was a Satan worshiper. He was just being sarcastic.
Crowley had his weirdo ideas but he was not a Satanist.

 

[George Layton]

If you please Mister Goldstein, Scientology is most certainly NOT psychiatry. Just for a primary and conclusive point Scientology addresses the individual as a spirit

The reinforcement of one's vanity does not enhance the spirit.

 

[George Layton]

It is my observation that most of the bad conduct (very little of it actually criminal; actual de jure crimes can be prosecuted) by Co$ is from bad application of policy. For instance, early on as a staff member I got to read "The Admin Scale". It has Goals and Purposes up at the top. The lowest entry is "Ideal Scenes" and just above that is "Statistics". I read that and looked around, and again FCDC in the early seventies was one of the best CLIV orgs anywhere ever, and said to myself "The tail is wagging the dog in this joint"

Rotten Co$ conduct is the product of rotten Co$ personnel and ignorant personnel obeying rotten personnel.

Which is not to say I don't find flaws with Hubbard's work but even at that I find no flaws which cannot be remedied with other writings of Hubbard. Proper ideals are articulated often in the writings of LRH along with instructions for implementing them

Throwing people overboard, locking children in chain lockers, making people push peanuts around with their noses past the point of blooding faces. What writings remedy that? And that was his own crew not those nasty wogs.

 

[George Layton]

Scientology is not psychiatry it is a psychotherapy. Big difference.

psycho-therapy. FIFY.