The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

No, absolutely not. It might take me a few months to find out where in the world he (the trumpet player) currently is and contact him, but I could try to bring him here to personally confirm the story. I'm not willing to post his real name, though. He can do that himself, should it ever come to that, but I'd doubt that, since he doesn't like to spend much time on the
'net.

Oh, ok, I guess I believe you. I'll cancel the call to Douglas' people.

 

[eldritch cuckoo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yes, it still happens. Wanna know why? Because distortions in the power stage of a tube amp give the sound a kick that can't be gotten elsewhere. No matter how much you boost the pre-amplification stage, you can't get that sound from there.

That's why, in recent years, small combo tube amps with only a 0.5 Watt power stage have become so popular - and believe me, even 0.5 Watt of tube power are WAY too loud for an average living-room.

Speaker technology has come a long way in the last 15 years or so too.

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I assure you looker that William Burroughs was gay as in the contemporary use of the word.

IMO the banana story would be more enlightening if in the end you throw away the banana and eat the peel.

Indeed. Research the source of Steely Dan's name. You will find the reference in Naked Lunch.

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Good point!
I always make (or re-model) my own saddles. I'd never try to work professionally with a $60 guitar but I've fixed more than a few for students.

I know what you mean, but look at this model:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/fender_squier_sa105_na.htm

A dreadnought for 75€, and good enough to have the Fender/Sqier logo slapped on it. Of course, a six-pack of high-quality machine heads alone would approximately cost that much, if you bought it in your local guitar shop and here you get a whole new, complete brand name dreadnought for that price. Throw in 30€ more, and you'll get one with a semi-decent piezo pickup system. I've just recently discussed that with my favorite guitar dealer. We both agreed that it's impossible to build a decent quality guitar for such a low shop price. And that's the official shop price, which means: Materials plus production costs plus branding plus marketing are probably 25 bucks or so.

I know a factory can produce easily 200 or 300 of these guitars per hour, on it's CNC-controlled, conveyor-belt-fed machines and these machines deliver high-precision work, with tolerances of less than 4/1000th of a millimeter over the complete product, but damn, they leave all the fine tuning and the proper adjustments to the little dealers in their guitar stores in some god forsaken country village somewhere on this planet. Even if they wanted to, these little dealers can't do that job, they need their time to sell these things to make a living. How many of these things does the owner of a small guitar shop have to sell per day, just to buy food and clothes for himself and his family? I mean after paying rent, taxes and the necessary insurance fees?

This world is crazy!

End of rant

 

[strativarius]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Originally Posted by strativarius
I assure you looker that William Burroughs was gay as in the contemporary use of the word.

Indeed. Research the source of Steely Dan's name. You will find the reference in Naked Lunch.

C'mon SP, give me a break, I read Naked Lunch 150 years ago.

 

[strativarius]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I know what you mean, but look at this model:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/fender_squier_sa105_na.htm

A dreadnought for 75€, and good enough to have the Fender/Sqier logo slapped on it. Of course, a six-pack of high-quality machine heads alone would approximately cost that much, if you bought it in your local guitar shop and here you get a whole new, complete brand name dreadnought for that price. Throw in 30€ more, and you'll get one with a semi-decent piezo pickup system. I've just recently discussed that with my favorite guitar dealer. We both agreed that it's impossible to build a decent quality guitar for such a low shop price. And that's the official shop price, which means: Materials plus production costs plus branding plus marketing are probably 25 bucks or so.

I know a factory can produce easily 200 or 300 of these guitars per hour, on it's CNC-controlled, conveyor-belt-fed machines and these machines deliver high-precision work, with tolerances of less than 4/1000th of a millimeter over the complete product, but damn, they leave all the fine tuning and the proper adjustments to the little dealers in their guitar stores in some god forsaken country village somewhere on this planet. Even if they wanted to, these little dealers can't do that job, they need their time to sell these things to make a living. How many of these things does the owner of a small guitar shop have to sell per day, just to buy food and clothes for himself and his family? I mean after paying rent, taxes and the necessary insurance fees?

This world is crazy!

End of rant

I bought a Squier Strat in South Africa in 1991 for about R500 (£50 at the time). It had logo'd Fender machine heads and a Fender bridge/tremolo assembly. I still have the machine heads and bridge altho the guitar is trashed. I have a newer Squier Strat that I bought s/h for about £35.00 because it has a (IMO) lovely neck. The Fender machine heads require a 10mm hole in the headstock but the holes in this current Squier are too small and I don't have a drill. :-(

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I bought a Squier Strat in South Africa in 1991 for about R500 (£50 at the time). It had logo'd Fender machine heads and a Fender bridge/tremolo assembly. I still have the machine heads and bridge altho the guitar is trashed. I have a newer Squier Strat that I bought s/h for about £35.00 because it has a (IMO) lovely neck. The Fender machine heads require a 10mm hole in the headstock but the holes in this current Squier are too small and I don't have a drill. :-(

I would have said "Send me that thing to me and I'll drill you the exact holes you need", but chances are, that buying another, new guitar within that price range would be cheaper than the mailing fees.

BTW: Around my neck of the woods, I can buy an akku drill plus akku charger plus 10 drill bits (including a 10 mm drill bit) plus 10 different screw driver bits plus (can't remember what else was in that package) for 4.99€. I've bought one of those, combined it with my own tools. I center-drilled, pre-drilled, drilled 100 holes and cut a 6-mm thread into each one of 'em. In less than 30 minutes.

OK, the threads went into some cheap pieces of aluminum alloy, so I needed just 2 seconds per hole. And, of course, I needed a cigarette break inbetween.

So, my €4.99 investment has already payed off.

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I bought a Squier Strat in South Africa in 1991 for about R500 (£50 at the time). It had logo'd Fender machine heads and a Fender bridge/tremolo assembly. I still have the machine heads and bridge altho the guitar is trashed. I have a newer Squier Strat that I bought s/h for about £35.00 because it has a (IMO) lovely neck. The Fender machine heads require a 10mm hole in the headstock but the holes in this current Squier are too small and I don't have a drill. :-(

Prior to the current "free trade" fiasco, the number one manufacturer of musical instruments in the world was the Chicago Musical Instruments company. They had a built in profit center because they had the Silvertone contract with Sears and thus nationwide retail distribution but they also made Harmony and Stella and other brands. The lawsuit era mainly was the Japanese making better guitars than Fender, Gibson and Martin and not so much on the low end. Since the Samick factory opened in Seoul, the Koreans have become the number one manufacturers. But as MrNobody said, they knockout these almost good guitars that still need tons of work just to be playable. There should be tremendous work availble in the new field of guitar setup technician given the current state of manufacture.

 

[strativarius]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I would have said "Send me that thing to me and I'll drill you the exact holes you need", but chances are, that buying another, new guitar within that price range would be cheaper than the mailing fees.
<snip>

That's a very kind offer MrN. As a matter of fact, the neck that has the Fender machine heads is a piece of shit with respect to it's intonation, otherwise I'd just replace the newer neck with it. The newer neck is in a different league, but the machine heads are of inferior quality. Swings 'n' roundabouts eh? C'est la vie.

 

[looker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Even famous guitarists can play too loud though; according to Ron Wood, Mick Taylor royally p'ed off his former bandmates in the Stones (and Keith in particular) by turning up the volume when he reunited with them on stage once in in '81. I'd have thought there'd be a gentleman's agreement between musicians not to do this, but clearly it still happens.

Since our band is all over 60, we have blown out our ears at many concerts when younger. Now we resort to a Db meter to set max limits on our amps. However after a few whiskys and after midnight the guitarist who has the biggest amp turns up the volume and distortion and we have gotten death threats from a neighbor.

I guess his hearing diminishes as the night wars on and wants to feel the music through the sound compressions in his chest.

He loves distortion and often plays his Mandolin with distortion. I thought that was not allowed in bluegrass songs LOL.

I'm guilty too I sometimes bump my volume knob with my finger on my PRS and accidentally use up all my head room. I know when I do this because the singer gives me stink eye.

EDIT: Distortion and reverb are the answer for out of tune guitars and flubbed playing.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

On a more serious note, I was looking at your quote above, "I don't believe it's healthy to replace one guru with another and it says very little for the "tek" it there's a need to." I am looking at this statement and I don't fully get what you are trying to say. For example, say that Socrates was a guru of long duration and he dies and Plato comes along, wouldn't it make sense to possibly consider making Plato one's guru. If any one is going to do this, it would mean that they thought that Socrates's tech was good and in Plato, they saw a continuation of that "tech"

Example 1 - People have a Guru with bad tech and he dies. People will not necessarily do without a Guru, though that is possible. Generally people will go with a Guru with good tech.
Example 2 - People have a Guru with good tech and he dies. People will not necessarily do without a Guru. though that is possible. Generally people will go with a Guru with good tecd.

So to me. if there is a need for tech and an old Guru dies, people will always choose a Guru who they perceive to have good tech. In other words whatever the previous tech was, good or bad, it does not matter, people will always seek out good tech in a new Guru.

You are suggesting that it is not healthy to replace one Guru with another. Why do you say that? A dead Guru is either replaced or not replaced. Why is it healthier not to replace? How about a good reason why this is healthier?

Next you state that if the people do that, it says very little for the tech. Why do you say that? It does not necessarily say anything about the tech. if they need a new Guru, it really says nothing one way or the other about the tech used by the previous Guru. People will automatically want a new Guru with good tech.

I would appreciate it if you could please clear up these simple points. I mean, you wrote something which doesn't make sense to me and I would like to hear your explanation of why it makes sense. I think it is fair to ask you such a question. Every poster should stand behind their post. I am not being malicious in asking for clarification.
Lakey

Lakey
Socrates is not a guru. Socrates knew his limits and that he did not know. He had students, actual students. He never claimed to be an expert of anything. His student Aristotle was not a sheep in search of a guru. He too was brilliant and also became a teacher. Heidegger, a famous German philosopher has never been seen as a guru - only as a brilliant thinker. A guru I find perjorative and gross. An expert. Yuck. And his blind leading the blind followers. Sometimes we refer to a tech guru or photoshop guru. This means someone so good at some bit of knowledge as to be expert and know it all and to have acquired admirers. The connotation is that the admirers are somehow below the teacher, sycophants. The sycophant waits for the guru to teach them that all there is to know, as if the guru was the font of truth. Philosophers are not gurus, source, fonts of truth. They are thinkers who discussed problems or questions but since they never offer solutions, cures, conclusions, fixes or remedies then they never became an expert. Because an expert and guru is an illusion, can never exist. If anything Plato raised problems (not solutions) to think about and then talk with other thinkers about those mysteries and problems in a wine party (the symposium) Lol. And get drunk, real drunk. I think you have an underlying belief that philosophy actually answers questions. That is how Scn thinks but it is NOT philosophy. Scientology is not philosophy. Any philosopher would find that comical since the truth is the more we know the less we realize we know. This means the more a philosopher teaches a student the less dogmatic the student gets and the less in need of the teacher the student is and the less the student 'knows' too. I won't say the punchline. Because I already see the 'mu' this will provoke in you. But I will wait for that to play out in your response.

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey
Socrates is not a guru. Socrates knew his limits and that he did not know. He had students, actual students. He never claimed to be an expert of anything. His student Aristotle was not a sheep in search of a guru. He too was brilliant and also became a teacher. Heidegger, a famous German philosopher has never been seen as a guru - only as a brilliant thinker. A guru I find perjorative and gross. An expert. Yuck. And his blind leading the blind followers. Sometimes we refer to a tech guru or photoshop guru. This means someone so good at some bit of knowledge as to be expert and know it all and to have acquired admirers. The connotation is that the admirers are somehow below the teacher, sycophants. The sycophant waits for the guru to teach them that all there is to know, as if the guru was the font of truth. Philosophers are not gurus, source, fonts of truth. They are thinkers who discussed problems or questions but since they never offer solutions, cures, conclusions, fixes or remedies then they never became an expert. Because an expert and guru is an illusion, can never exist. If anything Plato raised problems (not solutions) to think about and then talk with other thinkers about those mysteries and problems in a wine party (the symposium) Lol. I think you have an underlying belief that philosophy actually answers questions. That is how Scn thinks but it is NOT philosophy. Any philosopher would find that comical since the truth is the more we know the less we realize we know. This means the more a philosopher teaches a student the less dogmatic the student gets and the less in need of the teacher are and the less they know too. I won't say the punchline. Because I already see the 'mu' this will provoke in you. But I will wait for that to play out in your response.

Robert Ripley once ran this snippet:

The more you study, the more you know
The more you know, the more you can forget
The more you can forget, the more you do forget
The more you forget, the less you know
So, why study?



PS oops, forgot the third line. Fixed.

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Since our band is all over 60, we have blown out our ears at many concerts when younger. Now we resort to a Db meter to set max limits on our amps. However after a few whiskys and after midnight the guitarist who has the biggest amp turns up the volume and distortion and we have gotten death threats from a neighbor.

I guess his hearing diminishes as the night wars on and wants to feel the music through the sound compressions in his chest.

He loves distortion and often plays his Mandolin with distortion. I thought that was not allowed in bluegrass songs LOL.

I'm guilty too I sometimes bump my volume knob with my finger on my PRS and accidentally use up all my head room. I know when I do this because the singer gives me stink eye.

EDIT: Distortion and reverb are the answer for out of tune guitars and flubbed playing.

Well, since I'm (mostly) an old-time Jazzer, I don't have the loudness problem that often - only when I hadve a 12-piece horn-section right behind my neck.

But, from my experience: In most of the loud rock bands, the musicians wear ear protectors.

Ears are the most valuable tools musicians can have, so why would any sane person risk that?

No, no, let the fans destroy their ears, if they need to, but musicians need to keep their "equipment" intact for their next gig.

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well, since I'm (mostly) an old-time Jazzer, I don't have the loudness problem that often - only when I hadve a 12-piece horn-section right behind my neck.

But, from my experience: In most of the loud rock bands, the musicians wear ear protectors.

Ears are the most valuable tools musicians can have, so why would any sane person risk that?

No, no, let the fans destroy their ears, if they need to, but musicians need to keep their "equipment" intact for their next gig.

Most of my electric work has been on bass rather than guitar and mostly in rock, country and blues type bands. I was always certain to stand to the side of my amp stack rather than in front of it. And those little spongey thingies are great. My ears are still good, although I'm down to about 12K on the top end.

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

On a more serious note, I was looking ......I don't believe ......<brevity>

More Merlot ?

Love you man, but, recently it seems with your posts that I have to try to figure out which is you & which is the booze.

In all kindness & consideration to the Leader of the Board is everything going alright or do you need a rehab clinic ?

Love & Blessing to you !

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Robert Ripley once ran this snippet:

The more you study, the more you know
The more you know, the more you can forget
The more you forget, the less you know
So, why study?

Very clever.


Philosophy is more about thinking and reading than study. And, for the existentialist, philosophy is just life itself.

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well, since I'm (mostly) an old-time Jazzer, I don't have the loudness problem that often - only when I hadve a 12-piece horn-section right behind my neck.

But, from my experience: In most of the loud rock bands, the musicians wear ear protectors.Ears are the most valuable tools musicians can have, so why would any sane person risk that?

No, no, let the fans destroy their ears, if they need to, but musicians need to keep their "equipment" intact for their next gig.

I know a long time almost constantly working jazz musician who plays piano & wears ear protection as religiously as a high powered rifle shooter at the gun range !

When he puts together any combination of singer, bass, guitar, cello or whatever else... it seems somehow as the "Leader" he manages to control sound levels.

Not being a musician, I get sort of baffled that in such widely varying venues, room sizes, number of pieces indoor, out doors, auditoriums & all that that the sound gets so right.

He says years of sound mixing in the studio plus all the years at various gigs makes the difference.

Yes, you musicians are a different bread.

Can we imagine the world without music ?

Love & Blessing to you all ( and hearing your music in your preference of 440 / 432 or 666 ) !

 

[SPsince83]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Very clever.


Philosophy is more about thinking and reading than study. And, for the existentialist, philosophy is just life itself.

That's just your opinion

 

[looker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I bought a Squier Strat in South Africa in 1991 for about R500 (£50 at the time). It had logo'd Fender machine heads and a Fender bridge/tremolo assembly. I still have the machine heads and bridge altho the guitar is trashed. I have a newer Squier Strat that I bought s/h for about £35.00 because it has a (IMO) lovely neck. The Fender machine heads require a 10mm hole in the headstock but the holes in this current Squier are too small and I don't have a drill. :-(

Ah Ha Great minds think alike. I bought a used Fender Squire Bullet from Guitar Center for $50, put some Canadian Rylander Vintage Sound pickups in for $90 and the thing became my garage beater. When I get frustrated on some project I come in and play the blues for a few minutes to bring my blood pressure down then I'm good for another hour or so.

Now I wish I had waited to buy some Fender Texas Special pull outs for cheap. Lotta young thrashers are opting upgrade from Specials to Seymour Duncans. Its creeping elegance.

But your right, CNC has made precision in guitars plentiful. Its the metal parts tuners and bridges that are slop. The Chinese seem to go beyond tool wear out just to get quantities out the door. Tolerances suffer like mad.

The best locking tuners I have seen are the PRS lockers. They have a thumb screw that tightens down on the string so it cant slip.