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ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

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I joked earlier about us being a little PTS to Scientology. Personally, I don’t like using Scientology nomenclature for two reasons: 1) It gives Scientology a degree of validity and 2) It means that I have not separated myself enough from Scientology so that I can view the world and express my ideas about it without using a Scientology paradigm.
I think we have a few things going on in this thread. There is a principled argument about free speech versus civility. There are emotional responses. When things calm down it seems someone says something that reignites emotional reactions. There is absolutism. Some people view any sort of compromise or dropping an argument the same as being a brainwashed robot and acting like a Scientologist.
But all of this has come about because this thread is about the issue of the input of Freezoners on this board. But I have to say that I agree with Acertainratio in that: Why are there Freezoners here anyway, if not to either defend Scientology or recruit people?
I am not for banning anyone, but it seems to me that the exes that are fighting among themselves on this thread are missing the point. In fact, the fighting is the point.
Exes are fighting each other on this thread instead of addressing the point about Freezoners. Let us exes pick apart the premises of the Freezoners when they express them here, instead of picking ourselves apart, and thereby allowing the influence of the Freezoners to grow because we fight among ourselves.
This thread isn’t fun anymore. The spirit that drew me to this board is being disturbed. It has become tiring. I think we are playing into someone else’s hands. I’m not implying a conspiracy, just that we’ve fallen off what we do best which is inspiring other exes and giving them support. Look how many other threads are being ignored.
Let’s keep our eyes on the prize and prioritize our reasons for being here.
We must cultivate our garden.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
The Anabaptist Jacques said:
I joked earlier about us being a little PTS to Scientology. Personally, I don’t like using Scientology nomenclature for two reasons: 1) It gives Scientology a degree of validity and 2) It means that I have not separated myself enough from Scientology so that I can view the world and express my ideas about it without using a Scientology paradigm.
I think we have a few things going on in this thread. There is a principled argument about free speech versus civility. There are emotional responses. When things calm down it seems someone says something that reignites emotional reactions. There is absolutism. Some people view any sort of compromise or dropping an argument the same as being a brainwashed robot and acting like a Scientologist.
But all of this has come about because this thread is about the issue of the input of Freezoners on this board. But I have to say that I agree with Acertainratio in that: Why are there Freezoners here anyway, if not to either defend Scientology or recruit people?
I am not for banning anyone, but it seems to me that the exes that are fighting among themselves on this thread are missing the point. In fact, the fighting is the point.
Exes are fighting each other on this thread instead of addressing the point about Freezoners. Let us exes pick apart the premises of the Freezoners when they express them here, instead of picking ourselves apart, and thereby allowing the influence of the Freezoners to grow because we fight among ourselves.
This thread isn’t fun anymore. The spirit that drew me to this board is being disturbed. It has become tiring. I think we are playing into someone else’s hands. I’m not implying a conspiracy, just that we’ve fallen off what we do best which is inspiring other exes and giving them support. Look how many other threads are being ignored.
Let’s keep our eyes on the prize and prioritize our reasons for being here.
We must cultivate our garden.

The Anabaptist Jacques
Click to expand...

You are right.
 
acertainratio said:
As I said in an earlier post, Scientology is a dark and dangerous thing with the potential to wreck people totally - physically, mentally, and socially.

People who have suffered this kind of damage have a strong desire to prevent other people going through the same trauma.

With the best will in the world, I don't see how people who have been through that hell can accept the idea that Scn outside the Cof$ is all fine and shiny.

I'm a big advocate of free speech, so I'm not suggesting that anyone should be silenced.

I have to be honest and say that my foremost inclination is to support people who have been hurt by the cult.

It would be good if the FZ'ers on this board would give some deep thought to the damage done by the subject that they hold so dearly, and the fact that many of the people here suffered that damage. Most of them I think, are here to work on their recovery, and help others doing the same.

So FZ'ers, please think about what you can do to make your presence here congruent with the fact that this is an ex - scientologists board.

Here's the big question:

If you are not here to recruit people and sing the praises of Scientology, why are you here, and what can you contribute?

None of these are trick questions, and I'm not asking so that I can duff you up when you answer.

As we know, there are plenty of FZ and independent boards; so why do you like to come here?

Those who are here to help themselves recover, and help others recover deserve a lot of consideration, in my view.

But as I say, I'm not into attacking free speech, and I'm not into expelling people, so I would like to hear something from you about how you can take part in debate on an ex - scientologists forum without undermining the basic purpose of the board or undermining the recovery of people who've been hurt by the subject that you hold dear.
Click to expand...

Any FZ'ers gonna answer these questions?
 
The Anabaptist Jacques said:
I joked earlier about us being a little PTS to Scientology. Personally, I don’t like using Scientology nomenclature for two reasons: 1) It gives Scientology a degree of validity and 2) It means that I have not separated myself enough from Scientology so that I can view the world and express my ideas about it without using a Scientology paradigm.
I think we have a few things going on in this thread. There is a principled argument about free speech versus civility. There are emotional responses. When things calm down it seems someone says something that reignites emotional reactions. There is absolutism. Some people view any sort of compromise or dropping an argument the same as being a brainwashed robot and acting like a Scientologist.
But all of this has come about because this thread is about the issue of the input of Freezoners on this board. But I have to say that I agree with Acertainratio in that: Why are there Freezoners here anyway, if not to either defend Scientology or recruit people?
I am not for banning anyone, but it seems to me that the exes that are fighting among themselves on this thread are missing the point. In fact, the fighting is the point.
Exes are fighting each other on this thread instead of addressing the point about Freezoners. Let us exes pick apart the premises of the Freezoners when they express them here, instead of picking ourselves apart, and thereby allowing the influence of the Freezoners to grow because we fight among ourselves.
This thread isn’t fun anymore. The spirit that drew me to this board is being disturbed. It has become tiring. I think we are playing into someone else’s hands. I’m not implying a conspiracy, just that we’ve fallen off what we do best which is inspiring other exes and giving them support. Look how many other threads are being ignored.
Let’s keep our eyes on the prize and prioritize our reasons for being here.
We must cultivate our garden.

The Anabaptist Jacques
Click to expand...

Interest in the board likely ebbs and flows with all of us, even the regulars. A good way to reinvigorate yourself and the board is to think up a good thread. Your point above could be one, for example.
 
The Anabaptist Jacques said:
I joked earlier about us being a little PTS to Scientology. Personally, I don’t like using Scientology nomenclature for two reasons: 1) It gives Scientology a degree of validity and 2) It means that I have not separated myself enough from Scientology so that I can view the world and express my ideas about it without using a Scientology paradigm.
I think we have a few things going on in this thread. There is a principled argument about free speech versus civility. There are emotional responses. When things calm down it seems someone says something that reignites emotional reactions. There is absolutism. Some people view any sort of compromise or dropping an argument the same as being a brainwashed robot and acting like a Scientologist.
But all of this has come about because this thread is about the issue of the input of Freezoners on this board. But I have to say that I agree with Acertainratio in that: Why are there Freezoners here anyway, if not to either defend Scientology or recruit people?
I am not for banning anyone, but it seems to me that the exes that are fighting among themselves on this thread are missing the point. In fact, the fighting is the point.
Exes are fighting each other on this thread instead of addressing the point about Freezoners. Let us exes pick apart the premises of the Freezoners when they express them here, instead of picking ourselves apart, and thereby allowing the influence of the Freezoners to grow because we fight among ourselves.
This thread isn’t fun anymore. The spirit that drew me to this board is being disturbed. It has become tiring. I think we are playing into someone else’s hands. I’m not implying a conspiracy, just that we’ve fallen off what we do best which is inspiring other exes and giving them support. Look how many other threads are being ignored.
Let’s keep our eyes on the prize and prioritize our reasons for being here.
We must cultivate our garden.

The Anabaptist Jacques
Click to expand...
I believe that, just like when McMurphy wanted all the other guys to vote on being able to watch the World Series on TV and Nurse Ratched started manipulating things, this thread began to go off the rails when there was a mistake in moderation, and Roan's post was censored by Thor.

That set off powder keg of reactions: People started stamping and screaming "I want MY CIGARETTES!!". Harding was sexually insulted. And Martini ran around wringing his hands.

I think it's time for our medication.

And a couple of us may need to go up to the second floor for some electro-shock therapy.
 
The Anabaptist Jacques said:
I think we are playing into someone else’s hands. I’m not implying a conspiracy, just that we’ve fallen off what we do best which is inspiring other exes and giving them support.

The Anabaptist Jacques
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this. I was told by someone who used to work for OSA that, "It's OSA's JOB. It's what they do. It's all they do. They stir the pot"

I'm not normally this paranoid. :omg:
 
Cat's Squirrel said:
Charge off case = (depending on the item being addressed); fewer somatics, more workable viewpoints, better confront and lookingness, more ARC, rehabilitated / better games. All good.
Click to expand...

This only works if you believe you have a "case" per L. Ron Hubbard's mocked up definitions.

The EP of Clear: I mocked up my own reactive mind. (Of course you wouldn't have known you had one if that old joker L. Ron Hubbard hadn't made up all those funnies about case, engrams, past lives, AAs and basic basic, etc.)

The EP of OT7: I mocked up my own BTs. ( You wouldn't have imagined those either without his hilarious rendition of the Sci Fi xenu story, which he told with a straight face, only laughing behind your back all the way to his bank.)

And of course next there is the ever popular "Highest Holy Level" OT8, where you find out you mocked it all up, including all those past lives and BT's you paid so dearly to "discover". The EP of OT 8: "I now know who I am not, and am ready to find out who I am".

But you are still kept on the edge of your seat by the buffoonery of being assured that "History of Man", "Super Power", GAT, GAK, "The Basics", The L's", "OT IX, X, XI, XII...C" etc ad nauseum..... hold the TRUE keys to your "case".

Keep it in your pants, please (your WALLET, sheesh!) for whatever latest! best! greatest! ALL NEW! release comes down the pike from the cult, it will just be another voyage of discovery into the outer limits of mans gullibility.

This truly is an epic journey "L. Reel-em-in Huckster has devised for his enrichment at your expense.

So for those of you who still don't get the joke, here are a couple of Ladybirds favorite EPs: (at a cost considerably less than $360,000.00)

The EP of scientology is: I have been scammed, suckered, soul raped, ripped off and had by a con game.

The EP of SP is: I am now free from scientology and can clearly see reality.

Scientology mocks up it's own enemies, but thats ok because as PT Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute." and "No one ever lost a penny underestimating the intelligence of the common people."


Stop being the butt of Hubbards jokes, he is not funny at all. He and his cult need to be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail like the snake-oil salemen of earlier times. That is all Hubbard ever was.

snake-oil.jpg
 
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nozeno said:
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this. I was told by someone who used to work for OSA that, "It's OSA's JOB. It's what they do. It's all they do."

I'm not normally this paranoid. :omg:
Click to expand...

Must we choose to dismiss it or not to? Let's face it, the mere existence of this board is the real stick in the craw for pro-techies. It proves there are lots of real people who have turned their back on the whole shebang. No one but a lunatic can always fight, anyway. You gotta sing, dance, do the Mombo.
 
I have a confession to make. I have never seen the movie or read the book "One Flew Over the Cukoos Nest." But I think I did experience in Scientology. And I am declaring war on Freezone propaganda on this board. My sword is my arguments, my shield is the inspiration I get from other exes, and my cause is for all those who good, idealistic, even altruistic people who whose spirits have been crushed and minds distorted or bruised.
Once more unto the breach!

The Anabapatist Jacques
 
I'm wit ya brother!

The Anabaptist Jacques said:
I have a confession to make. I have never seen the movie or read the book "One Flew Over the Cukoos Nest." But I think I did experience in Scientology. And I am declaring war on Freezone propaganda on this board. My sword is my arguments, my shield is the inspiration I get from other exes, and my cause is for all those who good, idealistic, even altruistic people who whose spirits have been crushed and minds distorted or bruised.
Once more unto the breach!

The Anabapatist Jacques
Click to expand...

CuckoosNest.jpg
 
Ladybird said:
This only works if you believe you have a "case" per L. Ron Hubbard's mocked up definitions.

The EP of Clear: I mocked up my own reactive mind. (Of course you wouldn't have known you had one if that old joker L. Ron Hubbard hadn't made up all those funnies about case, engrams, past lives, AAs and basic basic, etc.)

The EP of OT7: I mocked up my own BTs. ( You wouldn't have imagined those either without his hilarious rendition of the Sci Fi xenu story, which he told with a straight face, only laughing behind your back all the way to his bank.)

And of course next there is the ever popular "Highest Holy Level" OT8, where you find out you mocked it all up, including all those past lives and BT's you paid so dearly to "discover". The EP of OT 8: "I now know who I am not, and am ready to find out who I am".

But you are still kept on the edge of your seat by the buffoonery of being assured that "History of Man", "Super Power", GAT, GAK, "The Basics", The L's", "OT IX, X, XI, XII...C" etc ad nauseum..... hold the TRUE keys to your "case".

Keep it in your pants, please (your WALLET, sheesh!) for whatever latest! best! greatest! ALL NEW! release comes down the pike from the cult, it will just be another voyage of discovery into the outer limits of mans gullibility.

This truly is an epic journey "L. Reel-em-in Huckster has devised for his enrichment at your expense.

So for those of you who still don't get the joke, here are a couple of Ladybirds favorite EPs: (at a cost considerably less than $360,000.00)

The EP of scientology is: I have been scammed, suckered, soul raped, ripped off and had by a con game.

The EP of SP is: I am now free from scientology and can clearly see reality.

Scientology mocks up it's own enemies, but thats ok because as PT Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute." and "No one ever lost a penny underestimating the intelligence of the common people."

Stop being the butt of Hubbards jokes, he is not funny at all.
Click to expand...

OK. If that works for you as a way of looking at LRH, the Tech etc., then fine.

The broader issue though is that many people on the planet today feel they are not living up to their full spiritual and human potential, and they experience emotional afflictions which they are powerless to heal or remove on their own accord.

In accordance with this, a number of teachers, gurus, therapists etc. have sprung up who offer their own interpretation of the problem and how it can be fixed.

LRH is just one of these. My former teacher before Scn. used to talk of the false self and psychic hypnosis. The late Australian spiritual teacher Barry Long spoke of "the pygmy" located in your belly and which is responsible for your emotional troubles.

Different strokes for different folks, but the common factor is that the cause of our troubles is below the surface of our awareness and hence not easily accessible to the insight that would heal it.
 
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Cat's Squirrel,

One thing I could never understand, where the people under Josph Stalin. He would take thousands of his loyal party members, and out of his own paranoia, would have them tortored and shot. Then the next group of loyal party members that replaced them, would eventually be tortured and shot. This went on for at least 15 years. And even after Stalin was dead, there were ppeople who were loyal to him.
The abuses, emotional distress, and injustice that has happened to many of the people on this board will happen to you too, if you stay loyal to Scientology, Hubbard, or the Freezone. Don't defend it. See it for what it is. Don't think you can reason away the pain Scientology causes.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
The Anabaptist Jacques said:
Cat's Squirrel,

One thing I could never understand, where the people under Josph Stalin. He would take thousands of his loyal party members, and out of his own paranoia, would have them tortored and shot. Then the next group of loyal party members that replaced them, would eventually be tortured and shot. This went on for at least 15 years. And even after Stalin was dead, there were people who were loyal to him.

The abuses, emotional distress, and injustice that has happened to many of the people on this board will happen to you too, if you stay loyal to Scientology, Hubbard, or the Freezone. Don't defend it. See it for what it is. Don't think you can reason away the pain Scientology causes.

The Anabaptist Jacques
Click to expand...

Thanks for the warning, but I haven't seen a lot of complaints here (or indeed any) about the freezone. All the complaints seem to be about the CofS, which I left many years ago and have no intention of returning to.
 
Cat's Squirrel said:
OK. If that works for you as a way of looking at LRH, the Tech etc., keep it.
Click to expand...


Those are the real EPs of those levels, Cat's Squirrel. Ask anybody who has done them.

I think it would be impossible to pick out the parts you don't want and decide whether a method was valid, invalid or sometimes valid, one would have to have a thorough understanding of all the parts that make up L Ron Hubbards dangerous mishmash of other practices.

Otherwise how would you know what parts were harmless and which are harmful?

Just saying "It works for me" is not very smart, there are all kinds of harmful things that "work".

Please find out all the facts before you put yourselves in danger, or advocate this dangerous activity to others.


Here you can hear in Hubbards own words what he thought of satanism:
Philadelphia Doctorate Course, Lecture 18, "Conditions of Space-Time-Energy."

"The magical cults of the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries in the Middle East
were fascinating. The only modern work that has anything to do with them is a trifle wild
in spots, but is a fascinating work in itself, and that's the work of Aleister Crowley - the late Aleister Crowley - my very good friend." - L.Ron Hubbard
Click to expand...

There is alot more... look for yourself before you leap into something you might not be able to get out of your mind so easily. It might not be helping you as much as you think it is, anyway.

Think about this:

Maybe a "good" auditor is a person who really cares about others? Maybe "good" auditing has more to do with human beings connecting with one another than it does with scientology tech?

I for one trust liscenced and educated professionals more than unliscensed, unprofessional, uneducated minions of the huckster science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. (Not that I trust all of them, but if my loved one was sick I would take them a Doctor, not a scientologist.)

I and many other EX-scientologists here know a lot more Hubbard tech than many of the freezoners and indies around here. Many of us also took time to learn where the "workable" parts of the tech were plagiarized from.

I took a look at the freezone, I guess it is better than the official COS, and maybe has some value as a gradient step out of L. Ron Hubbards fantasy land, but my advice is don't get stuck at that step.

The freezoners are still trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
 
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