ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[acertainratio]

I've never had any auditing, but have explored and even practiced various 'Spiritual Paths' over more than 40 years.


I'm also an amateur anthropologist and enjoy human group dynamics, which the various factions, groupings, cliques and circles around Scientology are rife with.
Zinj

You could probably write a very interesting book. Ever thought about it?

 

[Pixie]

I've never had any auditing, but have explored and even practiced various 'Spiritual Paths' over more than 40 years.

I came here because I've been a vocal Scn critic since about '95 and that activity has brought me into contact and even association with numerous ex and even still Scientologists since then. I enjoy discussing Scientology, mostly because the 'Tech' itself is behind most of the abuse, but, also because I'm always interested in 'theories' of spirituality, and, once you can get over the inevitable frustrations inherent in 'discussion' with Scientologists, I tend to like them.


Zinj

Wow Zinj, I never knew!! You're a dark horse amoung us!! That's incredible!! I'm amazed!! I tell you what Zinj, I like you too....

 

[Voltaire's Child]

From Fluffy: I've heard the comparison between auditing and talking to friends before.

I would just say this: Would you compare psychotherapy with just talking to friends?




No I wouldn't.

Because people do come into legitimate problems in life whereby theu need help. Like grief that continues so long that a person is stuck in life, like real clinical depression. In many cases I believe wholeheartedly in getting help by a licensed person and also a person that you get along with or click with.

I believe people need help at times in life, the kind that can't be had from a good lunch with friends. But the good clinicians of psychology (watch out for the bad ones as in any profession), dont use emeters that can be easily fooled, that have been proven to be inaccurate, and they don't sec check a person and make them feel criminal.

I don't know of any auditor who considers that emeters do anything. They are just an aid and almost all auditing done on the meter can be done off it.

It's the auditor who observes and listens.

I think psychoanalysis is great. Just fine. I also think some other things are just fine and have good and bad practitioners.

 

[olska]

The post quoted below imo states succinctly the core and most important argument against the promotion and proselytizing of "tech" outside COS by Freezoners and other non-COS scientologists, whatever they happen to be calling themselves today. I've made some minor changes in red.

As I said in an earlier post, Scientology is a dark and dangerous thing with the potential to wreck people totally - physically, mentally, and socially.

People who have suffered or seen this kind of damage have a strong desire to prevent other people going through the same trauma.

I'm a big advocate of free speech, so I'm not suggesting that anyone should be silenced.

I too am an advocate of free speech -- let everyone have their say, pass over or ignore the parts you don't like in the same way you can change the TV channel from a program you dislike. Generally I favor uncensored/ unmoderated forums, though I recognize that irl this is often not practical as a few trolls and unsympathetic idiots can destroy a useful and needed forum.

Most of [the members here] I think, are here to work on their recovery, and help others doing the same.

So FZ'ers, please think about what you can do to make your presence here congruent with the fact that this is an ex - scientologists board.

Or, here's a thought for the scientologists: just READ and LEARN instead of jumping in to defend scientology or further upset or try to "fix" (by applying MORE scientology) someone who has found their way out and needs to vent.

I know that's a lot to ask since to a scientologist, scientology is the answer to eeevvveryyyything! even upsets with or about scientology... but try it, you might learn something.

For the scientologists on the board:

Here's the big question : If you are not here to recruit people and sing the praises of Scientology, why are you here...? As we know, there are plenty of FZ and independent boards; so why do you like to come here?

An EXCELLENT question, that the scientologists here SHOULD ASK THEMSELVES!

(Oh, excuse me, I guess that might be a LISTING question, or it might INTROVERT someone...golly gee whiz!)

...I would like to hear something from you about how you can take part in debate on an EX - scientologists forum without undermining the basic purpose of the board or undermining the recovery of people who've been hurt by the subject.

I'd also like to hear from the scientologists just how that works.

I've said before that pushing scientology on a forum for EX-scientologists who are helping each other through the process of recovering from their encounter/ experience with scientology is akin to offering fruity alcoholic drinks to people attending an AA meeting, all the while telling them it will make them feel better.

It's sleazy. It's nasty. It's cruel. It reeks of a total disregard for the welfare and well being of the people who come here seeking understanding and healing. The proselytizing predators creeping around here looking for prey undermine the safety of this meeting place.

I wish they'd go away.

Arguing with them about the validity of scientology or the bits and pieces of scientology won't shut them up or make them go away (they're the scientologists, the enlightened ones, you're not -- get it?).

Ignoring them might make them go away, except that without any resistance they may flock here to this safe space and take over (the manifest destiny of scientology, don't you know?) by starting innumberable threads all about the wonderfulness of scientology in all its official and unofficial forms, thus making this space UNsafe for true EX-scientologists.

So when you've had enough, just tell them to STFU about "the tech" and/or to bug off and find their own forum. No need to be "nice" to people who intend to do you harm.

 

[Pixie]

So when you've had enough, just tell them to STFU about "the tech" and/or to bug off and find their own forum. No need to be "nice" to people who intend to do you harm.

Well said and welcome Olska to this board. Well I have been doing that now for some time and all this has achieved for me is more lies, more frustration and a warning to keep myself calm. A scientologist no matter what he/she may want to call themselves should not be promoting scientology on a EX $cientologists Forum!

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I can't speak for others, but I've had messages of support from people here who enjoy my posts on ESMB.

Maybe those who feel otherwise should pm me as well, so I could get a better idea of where I stand here.

 

[Alanzo]

Freezone is not correct target at this time. In fact Freezone is a good thing right now, imo..

Problems may arise when the Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology implodes for real... At that time the Freezone will probably (make that certainly) establish itself as the 'kosher' Scn.

The danger for all of us is that the Freezone develops into the same totalitarian mess that CofS is today. The germs for that is in Hubbards tech right from the start.

Those members of the Freezone who wants a moderate and 'reasonable' movement will have to wrestle power from the Hubbard fundamentalists.. Who will probably be unreasonable, ruthless 'tigers'.

Who's gonna take it? - And where will it lead?

I agree with the Danish SP here.

I do not see Scientology as the horribly dangerous thing that a lot of people see any more. I used to.

But then I looked at shockandawe-kriegs and military industrial complexes and warrantless wiretappings and outright torture and decided that, if Scientology was allowed to get into power they would be very very dangerous indeed. But since they aren't, they're not.

They are easily shown to be utter fools. They are easily seen to be completely wrong.

And, when you are getting out of the cult, it is very important to have one or two around to be able to spot their thinking and their tactics and expose them in yourself and to others.

In that way, they can act like a vaccine. A little of the disease can help build up a big resistance to it. Until, like Polio, they're almost totally gone from the population.

As a result, I don't see the problem of having Freezoners here.

In fact, they can be a huge benefit to Exes.

They have been for me.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I can't speak for others, but I've had messages of support from people here who enjoy my posts on ESMB.

Maybe those who feel otherwise should pm me as well, so I could get a better idea of where I stand here.

That's cool. But I have a question for you: If you are not here to recruit people and sing the praises of Scientology, why are you here...? As we know, there are plenty of FZ and independent boards; so why do you like to come here?

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[acertainratio]

The post quoted below imo states succinctly the core and most important argument against the promotion and proselytizing of "tech" outside COS by Freezoners and other non-COS scientologists, whatever they happen to be calling themselves today. I've made some minor changes in red.



I too am an advocate of free speech -- let everyone have their say, pass over or ignore the parts you don't like in the same way you can change the TV channel from a program you dislike. Generally I favor uncensored/ unmoderated forums, though I recognize that irl this is often not practical as a few trolls and unsympathetic idiots can destroy a useful and needed forum.



Or, here's a thought for the scientologists: just READ and LEARN instead of jumping in to defend scientology or further upset or try to "fix" (by applying MORE scientology) someone who has found their way out and needs to vent.

I know that's a lot to ask since to a scientologist, scientology is the answer to eeevvveryyyything! even upsets with or about scientology... but try it, you might learn something.

For the scientologists on the board:



An EXCELLENT question, that the scientologists here SHOULD ASK THEMSELVES!

(Oh, excuse me, I guess that might be a LISTING question, or it might INTROVERT someone...golly gee whiz!)



I'd also like to hear from the scientologists just how that works.

I've said before that pushing scientology on a forum for EX-scientologists who are helping each other through the process of recovering from their encounter/ experience with scientology is akin to offering fruity alcoholic drinks to people attending an AA meeting, all the while telling them it will make them feel better.

It's sleazy. It's nasty. It's cruel. It reeks of a total disregard for the welfare and well being of the people who come here seeking understanding and healing. The proselytizing predators creeping around here looking for prey undermine the safety of this meeting place.

I wish they'd go away.

Arguing with them about the validity of scientology or the bits and pieces of scientology won't shut them up or make them go away (they're the scientologists, the enlightened ones, you're not -- get it?).

Ignoring them might make them go away, except that without any resistance they may flock here to this safe space and take over (the manifest destiny of scientology, don't you know?) by starting innumberable threads all about the wonderfulness of scientology in all its official and unofficial forms, thus making this space UNsafe for true EX-scientologists.

So when you've had enough, just tell them to STFU about "the tech" and/or to bug off and find their own forum. No need to be "nice" to people who intend to do you harm.

Thanks for the editing.

I agree with every word you say.

Another point that I've made on another thread, is that by being allowed to promote and recruit here, they are by association picking up an aura of respectability that I for one, don't want to give them.

It's not a free advertising and recruitment service.

 

[Boldgirl]

Maybe FZ lurk and post because they do have doubts and aren;t ready to disconnect the cult umbilical cord.

I do think it is a good question though....what are FZ here on this MB to contribute if not to solicit ?

 

[acertainratio]

I can't speak for others, but I've had messages of support from people here who enjoy my posts on ESMB.

Maybe those who feel otherwise should pm me as well, so I could get a better idea of where I stand here.

I enjoy your posts and see nothing wrong in them. You are always open and honest, which to me means you are a safe person.

 

[Alanzo]

I can't speak for others, but I've had messages of support from people here who enjoy my posts on ESMB.

Maybe those who feel otherwise should pm me as well, so I could get a better idea of where I stand here.

I support your presence here.

I think you provide a much needed viewpoint.

If someone goes into the Freezone, or even goes back into the Church, it isn't the equivalent to people being sent to the gas chambers, especially if the abuse in the freezone and the Church is continually exposed and curtailed.

Please simply do your best to listen to and help others here and provide the best, most persuasive and logically consistent arguments for your positions.

Everyone wins if we all try to do that, from whatever viewpoint we have.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I agree with the Danish SP here.

I do not see Scientology as the horribly dangerous thing that a lot of people see any more. I used to.

But then I looked at shockandawe-kriegs and military industrial complexes and warrantless wiretappings and outright torture and decided that, if Scientology was allowed to get into power they would be very very dangerous indeed. But since they aren't, they're not.

They are easily shown to be utter fools. They are easily seen to be completely wrong.

And, when you are getting out of the cult, it is very important to have one or two around to be able to spot their thinking and their tactics and expose them in yourself and to others.

In that way, they can act like a vaccine. A little of the disease can help build up a big resistance to it. Until, like Polio, they're almost totally gone from the population.

As a result, I don't see the problem of having Freezoners here.

In fact, they can be a huge benefit to Exes.

They have been for me.

I don't think they shouldn't come here. I think that out of a decent respect for the opinions of others who want a sanctuary from Scientology that they should not promote Scientology Lite here or try to recruit. We can always discuss things. I am talking about promoting the benefits of Scientology. The key words being "promoting Scientology."

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[olska]

Well said and welcome Olska to this board.

Hi Pixie,
I've been around awhile -- I don't post that often because most of what I have to say was said long ago, and is being said again by new people -- and after a lot of reading on the 'net that "filled in the blanks" for me, I've been able to pretty much leave my scientology experience behind and go on with a life that I like. I haven't read your whole story because I don't spend much time here now (busy with other things)

Well I have been doing that now for some time and all this has achieved for me is more lies, more frustration and a warning to keep myself calm.

Like any other skill, learning to say STFU calmly and confidently takes some practice! Keep practicing, hang in there, you'll make it!

A scientologist no matter what he/she may want to call themselves should not be promoting scientology on a EX $cientologists Forum

I agree!

Just keep in mind that when you make that declaration, it's not a comment about people's "rights" or about "free speech," -- it's a comment noting that there are people in the world who are too uncaring, too insensitive, too lacking in common social skills, or perhaps just too stupid to understand.

It's part of the damage wreaked by scientology on the personalities of people who might otherwise be fairly normal, even intelligent. Pity.

 

[Alanzo]

Maybe FZ lurk and post because they do have doubts and aren;t ready to disconnect the cult umbilical cord.

I do think it is a good question though....what are FZ here on this MB to contribute if not to solicit ?

Salesmen are not executioners.

There is nothing wrong with sales.

Especially if those sales pitches are subjected to the FULL DISCLOSURE that we can achieve here.

 

[acertainratio]

I agree with the Danish SP here.

I do not see Scientology as the horribly dangerous thing that a lot of people see any more. I used to.

But then I looked at shockandawe-kriegs and military industrial complexes and warrantless wiretappings and outright torture and decided that, if Scientology was allowed to get into power they would be very very dangerous indeed. But since they aren't, they're not.

They are easily shown to be utter fools. They are easily seen to be completely wrong.

And, when you are getting out of the cult, it is very important to have one or two around to be able to spot their thinking and their tactics and expose them in yourself and to others.

In that way, they can act like a vaccine. A little of the disease can help build up a big resistance to it. Until, like Polio, they're almost totally gone from the population.

As a result, I don't see the problem of having Freezoners here.

In fact, they can be a huge benefit to Exes.

They have been for me.

I'm glad they have been a help to you, and I'm for free speech and no expulsions of people, BUT:

I want:

No free advertising.

No recruiting.

No PMing people as soon as they hit the board, with what is really SPAM for FZ or 'Independant Scientolgy.'

It is an ex scientology message board, and there are people here who have suffered enough from registrars and recruiters.

I for one, do feel protective towards them and make no excuses for it.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

That's cool. But I have a question for you: If you are not here to recruit people and sing the praises of Scientology, why are you here...? As we know, there are plenty of FZ and independent boards; so why do you like to come here?

The Anabaptist Jacques

I've got no one to recruit to, I don't have a practice.

Basically, I came here last year because I was searching for some info about The Pilot (Ken Ogger), whom I hadn't heard about for some time. One of the threads the search turned up was one on here. I registered, logged on and started posting.

You can check the early history of my posts if you want and you'll see I'm speaking the truth. But anyway, I stuck around because there are people I like here and we have some interesting discussions, as well as deciding what to do about the Church.

Some people like my posts here and some clearly don't, that's pretty obvious too. Ultimately, though, the person I'll respond to here is Emma. It's her forum, all she has to do is ban me if she doesn't want me here.

 

[acertainratio]

Hi Pixie,
I've been around awhile -- I don't post that often because most of what I have to say was said long ago, and is being said again by new people -- and after a lot of reading on the 'net that "filled in the blanks" for me, I've been able to pretty much leave my scientology experience behind and go on with a life that I like. I haven't read your whole story because I don't spend much time here now (busy with other things)



Like any other skill, learning to say STFU calmly and confidently takes some practice! Keep practicing, hang in there, you'll make it!



I agree!

Just keep in mind that when you make that declaration, it's not a comment about people's "rights" or about "free speech," -- it's a comment noting that there are people in the world who are too uncaring, too insensitive, too lacking in common social skills, or perhaps just too stupid to understand.

It's part of the damage wreaked by scientology on the personalities of people who might otherwise be fairly normal, even intelligent. Pity.

I like you a lot.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I support your presence here.

I think you provide a much needed viewpoint.

If someone goes into the Freezone, or even goes back into the Church, it isn't the equivalent to people being sent to the gas chambers, especially if the abuse in the freezone and the Church is continually exposed and curtailed.

Please simply do your best to listen to and help others here and provide the best, most persuasive and logically consistent arguments for your positions.

Everyone wins if we all try to do that, from whatever viewpoint we have.

Thanks (and acertainratio too), I always do my best to speak the truth as I see it.

 

[Pixie]

Maybe FZ lurk and post because they do have doubts and aren;t ready to disconnect the cult umbilical cord.

I do think it is a good question though....what are FZ here on this MB to contribute if not to solicit ?

I could buy that, however, I have not seen many if any real contributions to this board apart from more $camology hubbardisms, over recruitment, free advertising and arrogance.