What happened to OCMB?

[Red Valiant]

VERY interesting and illuminating topic.

More later ...

 

[Alanzo]

VERY interesting and illuminating topic.

More later ...

RE-WELCOME TO ESMB, Red Valiant!

And dude - let that freak flag fly!

 

[freethinker]

This is looking like OCMB comes to ESMB to stir things up.

 

[Bill]

Fair enough.

I knew that none of this would make me popular.

You come here where everyone is a critic of the Church of Scientology and you dutifully parrot the Church of Scientology's attacks:
"Anti-Scientologists are ignorant fanatics" Church of Scientology strawman.
"Anti-Cultists are ignorant fanatics" Church of Scientology strawman.
"Steve Hassan is an anti-cultist" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
"Leah Remini is an anti-Scientologist" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
"Mike Rinder has undisclosed crimes" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
... and so on.

And you thought we wouldn't notice? You are not actually stirring things up, you are just making an obvious fool of yourself.

 

[Gib]

You come here where everyone is a critic of the Church of Scientology and you dutifully parrot the Church of Scientology's attacks:
"Anti-Scientologists are ignorant fanatics" Church of Scientology strawman.
"Anti-Cultists are ignorant fanatics" Church of Scientology strawman.
"Steve Hassan is an anti-cultist" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
"Leah Remini is an anti-Scientologist" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
"Mike Rinder has undisclosed crimes" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
... and so on.

And you thought we wouldn't notice? You are not actually stirring things up, you are just making an obvious fool of yourself.

for me, all this new postings by Alanzo and even Emma is immaterial. What should be posted is the falsehood of clear and OT and the Bridge to Total Freedom. All this nonsense of anti this and anti that and tribalism, whew.

I'm reposting this to the tread Emma started of me asking Alanzo questions.

 

[Red Valiant]

You come here where everyone is a critic of the Church of Scientology and you dutifully parrot the Church of Scientology's attacks:
"Anti-Scientologists are ignorant fanatics" Church of Scientology strawman.
"Anti-Cultists are ignorant fanatics" Church of Scientology strawman.
"Steve Hassan is an anti-cultist" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
"Leah Remini is an anti-Scientologist" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
"Mike Rinder has undisclosed crimes" Church of Scientology ad hominem.
... and so on.

And you thought we wouldn't notice? You are not actually stirring things up, you are just making an obvious fool of yourself.

Who's "we" Bill? Your repetitive use of "church" is fascinating.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Who's "we" Bill? Your repetitive use of "church" is fascinating.

Alanzo doesn't like it when we say "cult" anymore. The social science professors have decided that it is derogatory.

 

[freethinker]

Who's "we" Bill? Your repetitive use of "church" is fascinating.

Most of the rest of us, if anyone else disagrees then speak up.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I thought Jeffrey's done some good interviews and written some good articles.

Emms, what moves you to be doing this now? Has there been some attack waged against you by him?

I must say the board's gotten quite lively with the return of the Armadillo. I'm glad he's back on here because it wasn't possible to discuss with him the positions he's taken on his own blog. Although I'm not happy that HH blew the scene. His wit will be missed.

@HelluvaHoax! is just taking a break ... he'll be back when he has something to say, of that I have no doubt.

I suspect he was a bit stunned at suddenly being told he couldn't direct the word 'troll' towards an obvious (though possibly only temporary) troller (perhaps he should have just used a troll smiley, lol) so he's probably taking a break instead of posting a sanitised load of old rubbish that he doesn't mean, I expect most of us would have responded in a similar way.

PirateAndBum said:

I'm not opposed to everything you have to say Alan. I do think that it's useful to look at both the benefits and the negatives of ones experience.
I'm not however down with the attacking critics game you play.

I feel exactly the same, I have often agreed and appreciated Alanzo's posts in the past and hope to do so again when he stops being a troll dick.

Most of us don't seem to require his enthusiastic 'advice' on how to observe the bleeding obvious possibly because we're not children or cretins and can either already clearly see certain things ... or just don't care ... the bigger picture being far more important.

 

[He-man]

Most of the rest of us, if anyone else disagrees then speak up.

I hate it when people say "we" and include me in whatever hot pot they are brewing. Almost always better to write "I". Especially when crusades go down. Especially whenever someone feels the urge to write something like:

But I do not trust anything Swifty has to say. So we still need verification on McGhee's claim.

Lol wut? We as in the whole board? That is how I interpret it.

 

[Bill]

Who's "we" Bill? Your repetitive use of "church" is fascinating.

The "we" in this case was the other people on ESMB. I guess it could have been phrased as "Did you think the other people on ESMB wouldn't notice" but that's feels clumsy to me. As I wasn't ascribing any opinion to "we" I don't think it's presumptuous.

The repetition is deliberate, for emphasis. It's a literary gimmick.

 

[Emma]

Hi Lotus,

I wanted to reply in more detail, but I have been busy all day trying to find out what happened to OCMB. I was going to write you this big long post, explaining everything, and I will, but for now I just want to say:

Have you been implicitly asked to run the board a specific way and to discard or muzzle some people?

You have to understand that it is not that simple. No one says to you "Here is your order. You are to discredit X." That is not how this works. What you get instead is a barrage of messages saying how upset or injured a person feels, and that X is the bully, and that X has an agenda and that X is a bad person (and here is the proof), and that it's your job as ESMB admin to ensure everyone gets fair treatment, and that it's only right because this upset person has supported you etc. If this person has been kind to you, or rewarded you in the past, the "human" in you wants to protect that person, so you do what you can to stop X from being so "mean". You don't really read what X says, you just "know" X has an agenda. You treat X like he's the bad guy. It doesn't really matter if X has a point or not. I've given an example of this earlier in one of my posts.

If yes, was it in exchange of substantial donation to cover the board expenses? We're you offered something else for personnal benefit ???

Yes. Unfortunately I have allowed the larger donators to do what they want & I have protected them. Many time HH's post were reported for cruelty or name-calling but I ignored that. You ignore it once and you keep ignoring it. You know it's wrong so you distance yourself from it.

I never received any "gifts" from HH, but from Karen, yes. If someone has your Paypal address it's difficult to stop it. Once you accept it the first time & don't return it, you are fucked. This works great. Just ask lobbyists.

Have you read about the Law of Reciprocity?

Law Of Reciprocity
Persuasion by reciprocation is based on the law of reciprocity. It’s considered by many to be the most powerful law of human nature. Basically, it states that,
“If you do something nice for me I’ll do something nice for you. I feel obligated to reciprocate.”

Material Or Financial Reciprocation
Another type of reciprocation is called material or financial reciprocation. An example of this is when you do something physical for someone such as, helping them move or lending them your lawnmower, they want to pay you back by reciprocating in some way.
We have a deep psychological need to be even with others. If a person does something for you, we feel a need to get even by doing something nice in return.

I have asked for a 12 year statement from Paypal. You can only get 7 years worth of transactions online and I want to see for myself, just how "bought" I actually was. Because believe me, it is awfully easy to "forget".

Was there an agenda to be implanted on ESMB that has been communicated to you specifically??

Yes. It started in 2010. All of it. The agenda was to get Indi's accepted, get Marty accepted, get Mike accepted. No criticism of Marty, Mike, Karen. Criticism of Marty became ok again in 2016. I was an easy target. After being asked by her, I introduced Karen to the board in late October 2010. Less than two weeks later I was arrested. Karen came to my rescue and put me in contact with Mike Rinder who had agreed to write an affidavit if I needed one. I was terrified that I would have to fight the might of the CoS in court by myself and needed powerful allies. The charges were serious. Each carried a prison term of up to 10 years. I would have done anything to make this go away. Thus ended any criticism of Indies from me.

This caused pretty much all the drama on the board from that time forward. Alanzo, Zinj and a bunch of others were concerned that this whole thing, the "charm offensive", was an op. Not necessarily an OSA op, but an Indy-OSA op. Why Indi-OSA? Because Marty, Mike and Karen all worked for OSA and knew how to get shit done. If you think all OSA do is harass people you are wrong. They are trained in influence. OSA did this to me back in 2004. They used charm and "good will" to get me to turn on critics. I'm not saying these guys (M & M & KDC) continued to be OSA, only that they didn't all of a sudden forget what they had previously been trained in.

They wanted there to be no attacks. Where were the attacks coming from? ESMB. Which was the largest community of Ex Scientologists and critics? ESMB. I was insulted that people thought I was being duped. They were trying to tell me that I had been the target of an Op. We all fell out. Thus began the great ESMB war of 2011.

Have you ever studied "The Art of War"?

“Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“Sun Tzu said: The control of a large force is the same principle as the control of a few men: it is merely a question of dividing up their numbers.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

This is how OSA operates. The Art of War is their playbook. The nasty shit only happens when manipulation fails.

We're you having pressure when EC ran the board and was the conflict with her related to any pressure on how to run the board.?

Yes. I would get messages that EC wasn't doing things right and pressured to interfere.

The thing between EC and myself a few years ago was caused by a couple of things:

1. She was sick of running it, and I don't blame her. I basically forced her hand to take it over in the first place.
2. I made a comment along the lines of "If I was still running this board politics wouldn't be allowed". So she, and probably rightfully so, said "Oh well have it back then!" and sent me all the logins & passwords.

Well this has been a long post afterall, but believe me when I say it's only 1/10 of what I could write.

I'm off to do more digging regarding the "disappearing" of OCMB. I have found out certain things and I'll post them separately.

I told you I'd tell you the truth and I have. You can think me weak or foolish, and I probably am.

 

[He-man]

Wow, thanks for sharing Emma. It must take a lot to dive into it but you are doing it. That's why I have nothing more then a deep respect for you, even if I feel it was sad to see how it happened back then(from what little I know and from what I could see plainly on the board).

 

[He-man]

Yes. It started in 2010. All of it. The agenda was to get Indi's accepted, get Marty accepted, get Mike accepted. No criticism of Marty, Mike, Karen. Criticism of Marty became ok again in 2016. I was an easy target. After being asked by her, I introduced Karen to the board in late October 2010. Less than two weeks later I was arrested. Karen came to my rescue and put me in contact with Mike Rinder who had agreed to write an affidavit if I needed one. I was terrified that I would have to fight the might of the CoS in court by myself and needed powerful allies. The charges were serious. Each carried a prison term of up to 10 years. I would have done anything to make this go away. Thus ended any criticism of Indies from me.

So who were the main culprits then? Who wanted the eminems and Karen to be protected? Was it a general push and shove from all the indies back then or were there specific people(apart from Karen) who donated monies and who then pushed this - Or was it only specifically Karen? If you want to tell, I mean I understand if you don't.

 

[Emma]

oooohh. I am back.

Big hello to all of you!!!

Hey Koki! Welcome back.

Can anyone confirm what John McGhee says here?

View attachment 15572

There are multiple attempts to confirm this right now.

Critics fighting each other online, is one of OSA's goals.

On another thread it was part of the plan described to discredit Chuck Beatty, who was a threat years ago.

Now we've just lost Aftermath, in recent years Marty and Arnie (apparently) were silenced, and today others here are being targeted.

There's more valuable information that has yet to be exposed, and there are a series of critical civil cases being filed that may help do it.

The free-form and open nature of the OCMB discussion board was an asset for years, and hopefully can be one that will rise again.

All else should rise above the drama, and stay on target.

Critics fighting/squabbling is one thing. Especially when it's personal. Just stop a second and look at the questions Alanzo has asked. Are they personal? Is he calling Mike Rinder names? Are the questions he is asking "not allowed"? If so why?

Should the guy who ran OSA for 22 years, who is now effectively the head honcho of Scientology criticism, be immune from scrutiny or hard questions? Isn't this how we keep a check on ourselves? We weren't allowed to question authority in the CoS. Now we can. And we should.

I thought Jeffrey's done some good interviews and written some good articles.

Emms, what moves you to be doing this now? Has there been some attack waged against you by him?

I must say the board's gotten quite lively with the return of the Armadillo. I'm glad he's back on here because it wasn't possible to discuss with him the positions he's taken on his own blog. Although I'm not happy that HH blew the scene. His wit will be missed.

He has. I'm not denying it. I'm questioning his motives, because I honestly don't know what they are, and the whole thing is intriguing, especially seeing that once I announced that I was taking a look at OCMB, it mysteriously disappeared.

I'll bet there are at least 10 people who not only could confirm what John McGhee says here about Karen and Jeffrey being given OCMB, but could prove it.

But, so far, they're quiet.

Like sheep.

I know of at least one other person who believes that Karen was the administrator when the board closed to further posts. AFAIK Andreas has walked away but someone is paying the server fees.

Swifty has informed me that: Until hearing from me, he had no idea it was down. That OCMB was never given, transferred or sold to Karen or himself. I have no concrete reason to doubt any of this.

I've sent PM's to many: Andreas Heldal-Lund, other ex-Moderators of OCMB, etc.

Could be that Andreas having moved on, cared less about the message board side of things than he has in keeping xenu.net intact and that OCMB has somehow crashed as a result of not having it's software updated or maintained. This is speculation on my part.

Could be. Let's find out.

This is looking like OCMB comes to ESMB to stir things up.

How so?

One very interesting & disturbing thing I found out today, is that the whole of xenu.net has been excluded from the wayback machine. When you search for the domain name at the internet archive, you get a message that says "Sorry. This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine." I went to the help section and this the answer I found to my question.

Why isn't the site I'm looking for in the archive?

Some sites may not be included because the automated crawlers were unaware of their existence at the time of the crawl. It's also possible that some sites were not archived because they were password protected, blocked by robots.txt, or otherwise inaccessible to our automated systems. Site owners might have also requested that their sites be excluded from the Wayback Machine.

OCMB & xenu.net were always available on the wayback machine. Why aren't they being backed up now? Has the owner requested that the site be excluded?

All uncomfortable questions. Is it ok to ask them?

 

[He-man]

hould the guy who ran OSA for 22 years, who is now effectively the head honcho of Scientology criticism, be immune from scrutiny or hard questions? Isn't this how we keep a check on ourselves? We weren't allowed to question authority in the CoS. Now we can. And we should.

This!

All uncomfortable questions. Is it ok to ask them?

Hell yeah! It should always be ok to ask questions in my not so humble opinion. Just not Alanzo. He is such a silly name to begin with.

I kid the Alanzo to paraphrase one of my favourite posters of all time.

 

[Emma]

Wow, thanks for sharing Emma. It must take a lot to dive into it but you are doing it. That's why I have nothing more then a deep respect for you, even if I feel it was sad to see how it happened back then(from what little I know and from what I could see plainly on the board).

Yes people have been trying for years to work out what the hell happened. To be honest I've only really woken up to it all in the last few weeks. The day I decided to end ESMB, was the day I realised that I'd be free of the "obligation" that was renewed every time I did a fundraiser. I had felt trapped. Now I felt free. It was amazing to me. All of a sudden I could speak my mind. I could tell Karen I thought she was controlling. I could moderate HH without concern. As I did this the realisation of the mindfuck I'd been in became clearer and clearer. Maybe I did moderate HH a little too hard, but I just wanted to make the point that "you don't run me".

And look what happened. HH quit. Karen quit. Jeffrey quit.

Doesn't that tell you something? I mean really? Seriously, look at what happened!

Emma got her balls back.

 

[Emma]

So who were the main culprits then? Who wanted the eminems and Karen to be protected? Was it a general push and shove from all the indies back then or were there specific people(apart from Karen) who donated monies and who then pushed this - Or was it only specifically Karen? If you want to tell, I mean I understand if you don't.

Just Karen. I never heard a peep from Marty or Mike.

 

[Emma]

Hell yeah! It should always be ok to ask questions in my not so humble opinion. Just not Alanzo. He is such a silly name to begin with.

I think it's spanish for armadillo.

I kid the Alanzo to paraphrase one of my favourite posters of all time.

Mine too. I miss TAJ.

 

[He-man]

Well, if you did want the board to go on, and you found someone bipartisan/not involved(as in ever, who has not even been a scientologist or an anti) to moderate the board, could the donations not be set up so that they are completely anonymous? Maybe a bit late to think like that but my mind normally revolves around solving problems.