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Zinjifar said:
Scientologists hoard their accumulations of slurs, insults and affronts like precious gems and valuable tools in the Make-Wrong/Self-Right game.

'Hurt Feelings' are an acquired skill and weapon.

Zinj
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Some even 'threaten you' with putting these treasured gems on their website ... for posterity.

:roflmao:
 
Zinjifar said:
Scientologists hoard their accumulations of slurs, insults and affronts like precious gems and valuable tools in the Make-Wrong/Self-Right game.

'Hurt Feelings' are an acquired skill and weapon.

Zinj
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Well, none of the ones posting on this thread have any hurt feelings- I know I don't and never did. So I'm not sure whom you're talking about.

Mick and Terril were talking about FZers being attacked. I commented on it. You might want to try reading Terril's post. He gave specific examples. I saw those photoshopped pix- they were pretty nasty. I, like Terril and Mick, was discussing factual events.

Point of fact, I could find post after post after post here written by non Scn'ists who aren't involved in any Scn endeavor talking about how butthurt they are about things said on the forum or things said to them in general.

Next time, try actually reading the posts you're so moved to respond to. It's good to know the actual content. That way you don't come off looking like you have no reading comprehension skills or other...problems.
 
Hatshepsut said:
My worry is that the dramatization is like a snake swallowing its tail. In the end lies the beginning and in the beginning lies the end.
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The reason this doesn't trouble me as much stems from my, admittedly jaded, view of human history, and most especially that dealing with religious/spiritual cults. In essence all religious groups go through something akin to what we are watching with scientology during their formative decades. Eventually things "quiet down" after initial disputes are resolved and the group gets on with whatever form of practice stabilizes. Periodically schisms may arise and religious offshoots are spun off which go through similar cycles.

In the case of early christianity the initial formative period was marked by severe fragmentation throughout the first two hundred years. The political triumph of pauline christianity eventually led to the elimination of rival christian cults. But this was only achieved through external political intervention & compulsion by the political state. That additional effort took another 400 years to achieve fully.

Similarly, Buddhism has gone through cycles of formation and schism, although not typically violent, which have resulted in the many differing schools of Buddhist philosophy today. Et cum altera religiones.

I seriously doubt that Co$ is going to achieve what the catholic church achieved in terms of tyrannical dominance simply because nothing like the political power of the Roman state exists today for the Co$ to coopt as the catholics managed to do successfully with Roma. Not even remotely. Even the u.s. is no substitute for SPQR, i.e. Roma. Fears to the contrary are based on nonsensical reasoning.

Basically, humans do crazy shit. Always have. This is especially true with regard to their religious practices. Notice that hundreds of millions of people in the world today think it is perfectly pious to engage in a weekly ritual of divine cannibalism. Sometimes, twice or more weekly. And they aren't even the craziest cults out there, either. :whistling:

If the Co$ winds up eliminating their abusive practices, everybody is better off. If there are a host of "new religions" which wind up delivering the grades or similar processes I, for one, would not consider that to be an innately "bad" thing. Many individuals have benefited greatly from being audited on the "lower level bridge".

Where there is no mystery associated with the content of the "upper levels" and it is strictly a matter of individual choice whether to proceed onward with them or not, I can see no reasonable objection to their being delivered.

What marks the Co$ out as abusive is the deliberate deception & coercive practices used by the cult to achieve compliance with management directives. Open the channels of information & eliminate abusive practices and such no longer constitute a basis for any reasonable objection to the free practice of the subject of scientology.

So what this all boils down to is, the "worst case scenario" would be MR succeeds in displacing DM and the Co$ alters its practices to eliminate it's worst abusive practices. That would not be a "terrible result" in itself. The fact is, I consider this unlikely, as I doubt very much that given the "fall of miscavige", MR would be in a position to replace him whether or not it was his wish. He, and several others, were too much implicated in the abuses of the miscavige years. Thus, to my mind, the "worst case" is unlikely, and therefore a "better case" is more likely to result.

We'll just have to wait to see what actually develops. Meanwhile, it helps to keep things simmering by making seasoned contributions to the stew pot. To this end, I want to express my agreement with Fluff's commendation of Alanzo for the contributions he's made on MR's blog.


Mark A. Baker
 
Terril park said:
You ever seen the cut and paste jobs I got on OCMB? Like a turd with
my face photo shopped being walked by LRH?
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Yes I think I remember them, not sure what the point you are making is though. Did it occur to you that they may just not like you?

So far I disagree. Would you like to give details in depth?
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Sure. From the 1980's until 2004 rathbun was a leader in Cofs Management - he himself makes hay about it in order to show what a big person he is.

He has admitted, slightly, that he may have, on occasion, lifted a pinky in a threatening gesture to another staff member. But he also stood around and watched while Miscavige broke the law by assaulting people. And he did nothing. He watched people abused and did not stand up for them. PLease note that this is direct contravention to the very subject he pretends to support!!!

He has taken part in harassing ex-members, as IG in RTC he was responsible in part for the infiltration of groups, he was part of Miscavige's campaigns against people including trying to ruin them utterly.

I have yet to se his affidavits in support of the Headley case, I have yet to see his affidavits of the malfeasance that he helped orchestrate, I have yet to see his sworn affidavits in support of those people who were beaten.

So yep, he is a cowardly tosspot. Do you have any example of him doing anything other than being that? He set up a blog - whoooo. He has a little forum where he can control what people say. He has the balls to slag Dennis Erlich - someone who's boots he aint fit to lick. Someone who Marty and his little thugs did their very best to totally destroy.

So yeah. that describes him nicely.

He covered up the story behind Lisa McPherson's death -

Nor would I attack you. We certainly have disagreements on the subject of scientology. I can live with that no problems, and I have witnessed you and partners incredible care with regard to your son. Awesome.

Well we met once IRL and occasionally cross paths on the net. Wish we were neighbours and we could be real good friends. :)
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yes indeed.
 
Gadfly said:
Marty was a major jerk while in the Church of Scientology. That is WHO he is. He is the type person, whether finding himself in Scientology or a Muslim group, who will take it to the limit.

So, now that he is out and no longer a member of the Church, with some bones to pick with the C of S, let him continue the trend. Let him be a major jerk now that he is out - but with all of this jerkness directed AT the Church of Scientology. Now, let him take it to the limit AGAINST the Church of Scientology.

I wish him luck! Though it will be nice to see him get a bit past the "management is all bad, but LRH and Scientology are all good" mentality. But, THAT happens to many who leave, and the process DOES take time.
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Sorry this is totally off the thread here.... one minute I'm totally entranced in reading this serious discussion and whoooof up comes your avitar and the next minute I'm ROTFLMHO. Very funny avitar Gadfly. Okay, back to this thread....
 
Voltaire's Child said:
Mick,

They don't like Terril because of what he does and what he stands for. They've said so.
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actually most of the bad comments I have seen directed at Terrill have been because of what he does. On OCMB he was lambasted by many people for his habit of using the board to promote his agenda.

Anyway Fluff you can believe whatever you wish, the facts wont change that.
 
Carmel said:
I don't personally feel any hate or resentment towards Marty. By the same token though, the thought of the effect that Marty and his clan are now having on 'exes' and fence sitters, chills me to the core, and that has led to me having a problem with Marty.

I can't help but think of those years ago, when critics risked so much, did so much, and copped so much, to expose the abuses of the CofS which were the result of the Scientology "package". After going through hell and high water, those critics finally got that heavy 'mother' of a ball rolling, to the point where it took off like an exponential curve.

From Freezoners through to Anons, there has been just so much work done by so many, to expose the CofS for what it is, and the Scientology "package" for what it is in its entirety. Hundreds and thousands have looked, seen, and started on the road to recovery because 1) they were predisposed to finding out wtf was going on and what was behind all the crap, and 2) there were answers and support. How long and how much effort by so many, did it take to get to the point where it was, earlier this year, prior to the St Pete's Times articles?

Marty had been out for some years prior to this. He didn't have to "find out wtf was was going on, and/or what was behind all the crap" because he knew what was, and he was one of the few who perpetrated a lot of it. Yet he 'sat' on it for some years. Why? And what caused his change of heart?

What gave Marty the impetus to finally speak out when he did? Was it remorse? Was it the realization that he had better be seen to be doing the right thing (now that the truth was coming out), in order to save his own ass from the legal authorities? Or was it a bright idea to capitalize on the hoards of people now leaving the church in droves?

Bloody hell! So many have done so much, and gotten so far in regard to exposing the CofS and Scientology (in its entirety), for what it is and for what it's responsible for. Then along comes Marty, at the eleventh hour, blaming it all on DM (when he was one of DM's #1 henchmen); he was one who actively implemented and forwarded the crap we all object to; he takes little or no responsibility for what he did (giving 'sufficient' lip service, hardly cuts the mustard); he remains tight lipped about the corporate structure and 'scam' of the 'church'; he's rallied 'allies'; fence sitters and some exes are treating him like some kind of hero/saviour; newly or would be "outs" are latching on to his explanation for all that has transpired (because as we know, facing the scam and having the loss, is a tough one...blaming it all on DM is much more confrontable and a far easier ride); he's already got a following of people who aren't even questioning why the fuck he doesn't blow the lid off the CofS when they should know that he is one of the very few people who could; etc, etc; etc (no need for me to write a 'book' on it here, when his blog tells a story).

Some may ask, why should some of us distrust him so, but I would ask, why would so many trust him?

The ironic thing is, that's it's mainly the "Scios" or "techies" who are trusting him. Those who you would think would be looking at things like; "Look Don't Listen"; the condition formulas below Non-E; the Data Series; Precept 17 of TWTH; the success with application of some of the PR Series; responsibility on four flows; the reference where it says that ya cop the condition ya don't assign; yadda, yadda, yadda. For some reason though, these references don't apply to the likes of Marty, just like they didn't apply to the likes of DM (and for way too long).

I'm not one of those who threw the baby out with all the bath water. Some label me as a "pro techie". I'm not "anti" Freezone, although personally, I would never again pursue Scn nor suggest anyone else to. I'm not anti anyone for what they believe in, and I'm not "anti" Marty because of what he did in the past. It is what he has not done since he left and what he is doing now, that bothers me.

I am very "anti", when it comes to anything and everything that cuts across the truth of Scn and the truth of CofS being exposed. I'm also dumbfounded as to how so many "pro techies" can put so much trust and faith in a man (and/or flow so much admiration and support), when that man hasn't acknowledged nor anywhere near made up the damage, for what he has done - it's all relative. I don't think Marty should be 'damned' or never trusted because of his history. However, nor do I think that he should be trusted or supported at this time, given his omission of responsibility and lack of action to date.

The idea of anyone conning the masses to believing that this was all DM's doing (while shoving his or her own related 'crimes' under the carpet), and 'safeguarding' the 'church' so it can or may continue, makes me want to vomit, cry, and oppose.

What happens to all that hard work over the last decade or two? Are the "Marty" supporters happy to see all that go down the girgler, and then inevitably after a period of time, have another three decades of human rights abuses repeat themselves, before a whole new wave of people (years down the track) see it again and rally together to fight it, all over again?

I am pissed off that so many have gotten on the band wagon. I am fearful for the future, and I can't handle the idea that so much may well be in serious jeopardy right now as a result of yet another con man doing his tricks, with people falling for it, all over again - We have been so damn close to exposing the whole fucking scam and bringing down the CofS - I consider that what Marty is doing, as a major threat to that.

There aren't just 'two' sides to all of this. Being a Scio doesn’t mean you’re a “bad guy” and being a “critic” doesn’t mean you’re a good guy – Fool ANYONE who thinks that it does.
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Great post Carmel. I thought it wierd from the start that Rathbun supports the tech. However, I believe that anybody can worship whatever they want. I've decided LRH was a conman and the tech a bunch of BS for various reasons, which reasons I'm too lazy to type at the moment (it's 1:15 in the morning here).
 
Mick I completely agree...

Hi all,

And hi Mick, we haven't met but I have to say I could not agree with you more. Didn't expect to post anything so soon but I just cannot resist on this one.

I've been out a good while now and have only just heard about everything that has happened recently. Saw the haggis story in the paper today and have now caught up. I think...

I'll freely admit I'm not into the ex scene, annonymous etc, (sorry if that disappoints some of you) but I am not pro Scn or DM or hubbard either. The first 19 years of my life (born into the SO) where robbed from me so I'll take the rest back thank you very much. Humans may do crazy things Mr. Baker but I'm all out of crazyness so it's normal life from now on.

Anyways, I'm glad Marty is helping to get people out if he is but I cannot believe some of the BS he has come out with. In particular his whole take on DM running black dianetics and how he will do it properly! Seriously?

Firstly DM may be doing that but I doubt it. He isn't that smart. He really believes his own hype and Marty damn well knows that. But worse is the fact that Marty has in fact run black dianetics. I know. He did it on me and it was a real piece of work, full on gang bang head fuck psycho sec check with Marty standing above me ensuring I become a complete wreck. And I did. So did others. Of course this was under DM's influence but he did it. In fact I would be suprised if DM even knew how to run dianetics, never mind the reverse.

Also why give him all this credit for what is happening now? IMHO, other than DM and Cruisy themselves there is only one other person who is responsible for the unprecedented scale of the shit storm over the last few years. No disrespect to all the others but whoever posted that medal winner video on you tube started the snowball that is now, without question, an avalanche. IMHO of course. And it wasn't me (just in case you thought that) but I think I know who it was... I'll have to read that new book and see if I'm right:whistling:

Anyways, not big on lurking so I'll crawl back under my rock now. Just had to say something on this one.

Peace and love to you all.xx
 
Mick Wenlock said:
Yes I think I remember them, not sure what the point you are making is though. Did it occur to you that they may just not like you?
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Not like me? Course they didn't. I'm a scientologist.

Well we have major disagreements with the subject. I bought the beer, and you and lovely wife bought, possibly the best Pizza I ever ate. I
think we all liked each other. :)

Whatever Marty is doing or going to do he can't tip his hand. We've just seen how Tommy D tried to get the newsline programme stopped. Earlier
warning would have resulted in injunctions and heavy legal stuff. This is what happened to the Brit programme " The beginners guide to L ron Hubbard", and why it aired a week or too later than advertised.

Out of curiosity did you know marty personally?
 
Mick Wenlock said:
actually most of the bad comments I have seen directed at Terrill have been because of what he does. On OCMB he was lambasted by many people for his habit of using the board to promote his agenda.

Anyway Fluff you can believe whatever you wish, the facts wont change that.
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Mick, like I said before, I can only know what someone thinks by what they tell me (or others in public posts) that they think. So I'm correct in what I say and you're in denial.
 
Mystic .... thank goodness that was corrected.

Now we know that black dianetics is run to worsen cases (ie remove any possible gains that would have been paid for and hopefully experienced previously from the other sort) and to add some extra upset to the case and (with any luck) spin the person in.

This is done to the person after the cofs realises the 'case' is on its bike ... legging it ... woken up ... and is no longer a source of $$$ etc.

Lovely.

Phew ... glad that was clarified.

:ohmy:
 
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