Veda
Sponsor
Of course, it wasn't a "them," it was L. Ron Hubbard; *he* flipped out.
At the time, that was UNTHINKABLE.
The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But
- Thread starter lkwdblds
- Start date
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Of course, it wasn't a "them," it was L. Ron Hubbard; *he* flipped out.
At the time, that was UNTHINKABLE.
Veda
Sponsor
The chapters,
15. Hubbard in Hiding: The Secret Desert Command Post
16. The Savior Lives Just Down the Road!
17. Hubbard Derails a Reform Movement
18. Hubbard's "Billion Dollar Caper"
19. The Savior's Revenge
20. Thousands Break from Hubbard's Church
are pertinent to the issues at hand.
And the Martin Samuels' comments in the 'Reflections' chapter are also relevant.
The scan in the link (above) is a crude 1998 scan of the 1987 edition, but it has the info.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Phil Spickler
Phil Spickler has consented to a videotaped interview.
It is probably going to be done by someone, who has known him for some time - someone who has been hired and fired by Phil, who has punched Phil out, been punched by Phil, has audited Phil, been audited by Phil, has advised Phil and been advised by Phil. In short, the interview is going to be no holds barred regarding Scientology, LRH, Dianetics, auditing, etc. Family is off limits. Please don't mention his family member's names in your replies.
Phil got involved with Dianetics in the very early 1950s. It changed his life. He worked as a civil engineer building airports and missile silos while also auditing and getting auditing. He was among the first hundred or so Clears at St. Hill. he fired Mary Sue Hubbard from a post at FCDC. He was fired by Mary Sue's husband somewhat later.
He had successful centers in Florida, Detroit, and Palo Alto. His PCs have included many of the early 1970s San Francisco 49er football team (including the quarterback, wide receiver, and tight end) , many folk from SRI's remote viewing group, various Stanford professors, some very high level Mafiosi, business tycoons, some actors (one of whom is still associated with the Co$).
He sold his center in the late 70s, got some auditing at Flag, and walked away from the Co$.
He has been sailing, working, playing tennis, golfing, bicycling, hiking, and auditing ever since then. He writes a fair amount on the IVy Magazine list. He's in his late 70s or early 80s. He plays tennis with 40 year olds. He works most days of the week. In short, he is in good shape.
What questions would you ask him?
Remember don't mention his family in your post. Google is unforgiving.
Phil Spickler has consented to a videotaped interview.
It is probably going to be done by someone, who has known him for some time - someone who has been hired and fired by Phil, who has punched Phil out, been punched by Phil, has audited Phil, been audited by Phil, has advised Phil and been advised by Phil. In short, the interview is going to be no holds barred regarding Scientology, LRH, Dianetics, auditing, etc. Family is off limits. Please don't mention his family member's names in your replies.
Phil got involved with Dianetics in the very early 1950s. It changed his life. He worked as a civil engineer building airports and missile silos while also auditing and getting auditing. He was among the first hundred or so Clears at St. Hill. he fired Mary Sue Hubbard from a post at FCDC. He was fired by Mary Sue's husband somewhat later.
He had successful centers in Florida, Detroit, and Palo Alto. His PCs have included many of the early 1970s San Francisco 49er football team (including the quarterback, wide receiver, and tight end) , many folk from SRI's remote viewing group, various Stanford professors, some very high level Mafiosi, business tycoons, some actors (one of whom is still associated with the Co$).
He sold his center in the late 70s, got some auditing at Flag, and walked away from the Co$.
He has been sailing, working, playing tennis, golfing, bicycling, hiking, and auditing ever since then. He writes a fair amount on the IVy Magazine list. He's in his late 70s or early 80s. He plays tennis with 40 year olds. He works most days of the week. In short, he is in good shape.
What questions would you ask him?
Remember don't mention his family in your post. Google is unforgiving.
Veda
Sponsor
Re. Ray Kemp and his Mission.
Around 1976 Hubbard was being driven around southern California, and looking at his properties. He looked at Ray Kemp's Mission and decided that he wanted it. He had others take it while he remained behind the scenes. Poor Ray Kemp - who, to the end of his life, thought that Hubbard really was his dear and close friend - knew it couldn't be Hubbard doing it. But Hubbard had lied to Kemp and used him for years, and neither liked nor respected him, nor did Hubbard much like or respect most Scientologists.
This was another one of those UNTHINKABLES. It just couldn't be.
Kemp wrote to Hubbard but the messages weren't answered. Hubbard had made his decision, and didn't want to hear from Kemp. He wasn't interested.
A more common situation occurred with many others, when they'd "write to Ron," and then would receive back a response that had a big RON signature but somehow didn't look right. (And this was occurring since the 1960s.)
Were Ron's communications being intercepted by evil forces?
After all, Ron himself said that "All mail addressed to me shall be received by me. I am always willing to help. By my own creed, a being is only as valuable as he can serve others. All mail addressed to me... will be forwarded to me directly."
Except Hubbard was lying, and really wasn't interested most of the time.
This duplicity permeated Scientology - and it flowed down from Hubbard.
And to this day, for some, that is UNTHINKABLE.
Around 1976 Hubbard was being driven around southern California, and looking at his properties. He looked at Ray Kemp's Mission and decided that he wanted it. He had others take it while he remained behind the scenes. Poor Ray Kemp - who, to the end of his life, thought that Hubbard really was his dear and close friend - knew it couldn't be Hubbard doing it. But Hubbard had lied to Kemp and used him for years, and neither liked nor respected him, nor did Hubbard much like or respect most Scientologists.
This was another one of those UNTHINKABLES. It just couldn't be.
Kemp wrote to Hubbard but the messages weren't answered. Hubbard had made his decision, and didn't want to hear from Kemp. He wasn't interested.
A more common situation occurred with many others, when they'd "write to Ron," and then would receive back a response that had a big RON signature but somehow didn't look right. (And this was occurring since the 1960s.)
Were Ron's communications being intercepted by evil forces?
After all, Ron himself said that "All mail addressed to me shall be received by me. I am always willing to help. By my own creed, a being is only as valuable as he can serve others. All mail addressed to me... will be forwarded to me directly."
Except Hubbard was lying, and really wasn't interested most of the time.
This duplicity permeated Scientology - and it flowed down from Hubbard.
And to this day, for some, that is UNTHINKABLE.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Veda, you are a treasure.
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
You May Already Be a Winner
You're richer than you think.
From MainStreet.com:
At least according to Poke, a London-based creative company that specializes in interactive media. Their Web site, The Global Rich List generates a wealth ranking for its users based on their annual income.
For example, if you make $52,000 a year (the median American household income for 2009), you are the 58,252,719 richest person in the world (or in the top 0.97 percentile of all moneymakers).
Someone who makes half of that ($26,000 a year) is still in the top 10%, ranked 569,942,529 on the Global Rich List.
These calculations are based on figures from the World Bank Development Research Group. To calculate an individual's position on the list, Poke assumes that the world's total population is 6 billion and the average worldwide annual income is $5,000.
The site uses your wealth ranking to invite you to share your wealth with others. It told me, for example, I could buy 25 fruit trees for farmers in Honduras for just $8 (as opposed to 12 organic oranges for the same price) or a $30 first aid kit for a village in Haiti (instead of an ER DVD box set). However silly these suggestions may be (who spends $30 to watch ER?), charitable giving is clearly the point.
According to the site, Poke "wanted to do something which would help people understand, in real terms, where they stand globally. They want us to realize that, in fact, most of us who are able to view this web page are in the privileged minority."
So in case you're missing the subtext here … the site doesn't exist just so you can tell all of your friends just how rich you are.
You're richer than you think.
From MainStreet.com:
At least according to Poke, a London-based creative company that specializes in interactive media. Their Web site, The Global Rich List generates a wealth ranking for its users based on their annual income.
For example, if you make $52,000 a year (the median American household income for 2009), you are the 58,252,719 richest person in the world (or in the top 0.97 percentile of all moneymakers).
Someone who makes half of that ($26,000 a year) is still in the top 10%, ranked 569,942,529 on the Global Rich List.
These calculations are based on figures from the World Bank Development Research Group. To calculate an individual's position on the list, Poke assumes that the world's total population is 6 billion and the average worldwide annual income is $5,000.
The site uses your wealth ranking to invite you to share your wealth with others. It told me, for example, I could buy 25 fruit trees for farmers in Honduras for just $8 (as opposed to 12 organic oranges for the same price) or a $30 first aid kit for a village in Haiti (instead of an ER DVD box set). However silly these suggestions may be (who spends $30 to watch ER?), charitable giving is clearly the point.
According to the site, Poke "wanted to do something which would help people understand, in real terms, where they stand globally. They want us to realize that, in fact, most of us who are able to view this web page are in the privileged minority."
So in case you're missing the subtext here … the site doesn't exist just so you can tell all of your friends just how rich you are.
Welcome, Lavalyte. Your screen name would make a great trade name for a new bar type shower soap or a new laundry detergent, low on toxic elements.What about a weak run drink mixed with passion fruit and served at a Hawaiian or Polynesian bar?
I'm brandastic! (tm).
Oh, I'll drop in for a comment now and then. I've been following scientology on the internet for the last 15 years or so, so I've said most of what I've wanted to say many times in the past on various other forae... but I like to keep a hand in, as it were.
Enthetan
Master of Disaster
So if you took all the income of the US, and distributed evenly among the rest of the world, we would all suddenly be poor, and the rest of the world would not be noticeably helped at all.
Alternately, if the Third World moved here (or just a piece of it like Mexico and South America), it would bankrupt our social services system real fast.
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
The Best Rundown Flag Ever Delivered!
I was at the meeting which extended through Thursday because it was going extremely well. After DM and entourage arrived the TA stuck. It was like having a product officer, org officer, and esto barge into your auditing session to tell you that you are running the wrong process and telling the pc that his perceptions aren't correct. But prior to that, manipulative management bullshit from the past came peeling off much to everyone's enlightenment.
The Peter Green write-up is accurate according my perceptions and experience. He spoke at the meeting candidly, emotionally, and eloquently. At the time I believe most if not all of us were fed up with management sitting between us and LRH. Little did we know or even suspect that the WHO all along was LRH.
It's not that some very senior people were scared about string pulling. That may be true should their heads come to roll. But the bottom line is that there was only one person scared over truth revealed and that person was LRH. Unfortunately, none dare confront that much truth at the time.
The meeting was video taped supposedly to go to LRH as proof of what actually went down. Now that would be an interesting piece of history to bring to view.
I was at the meeting which extended through Thursday because it was going extremely well. After DM and entourage arrived the TA stuck. It was like having a product officer, org officer, and esto barge into your auditing session to tell you that you are running the wrong process and telling the pc that his perceptions aren't correct. But prior to that, manipulative management bullshit from the past came peeling off much to everyone's enlightenment.
The Peter Green write-up is accurate according my perceptions and experience. He spoke at the meeting candidly, emotionally, and eloquently. At the time I believe most if not all of us were fed up with management sitting between us and LRH. Little did we know or even suspect that the WHO all along was LRH.
It's not that some very senior people were scared about string pulling. That may be true should their heads come to roll. But the bottom line is that there was only one person scared over truth revealed and that person was LRH. Unfortunately, none dare confront that much truth at the time.
The meeting was video taped supposedly to go to LRH as proof of what actually went down. Now that would be an interesting piece of history to bring to view.
Terril park
Sponsor
He is the most active youthful person of that age I've ever met. I'd like him to tell all in great detail, as he has known so many old timers and people
who helped build up the subject, and of course LRH and Mary Sue.
Two stories he told me that will be of interest, he was awarded honarary class XIII by LRH, and he singlehandedly got permission from the IRS commissioner to regain tax exemption. Got declared for his trouble!
Below one of his clients wrote this. Probably book 1 which was something Phil was expert in, and his honarary class XIII was awarded for a course for book 1 he created.
>>Hi Terrill
>>
>>I went and had two auditing sessions with Phil Spickler ca.10 days ago. He
>>was just wonderful to work with and of tremendous help. I laughed and
>>laughed in the car on my way home after the second session. We decided to
>>stop at that point. I feel great. Thank you for reccommending Phil. He is
>>the perfect auditor.
>>
>>All the best from
>>Berglind
alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
So our god had feet of clay. So what?
Somehow the spark in his soul pushed a personal vision forward till it gained enough momentum that it could survive without him. That is his legacy.
That he didn't meet our expectations of him is our failure. We put him on the pedestal. His failing was to let us, and to want it.
The development of "the tech" is certainly wrapped up in many stories, but with study, the workable stuff can fairly easily be discerned and the stories, the culture, be abandoned.
None of us would be here today, where ever we are in life but for the influence of Ron. Some are unhappy, some see the value of what they now know.
I propose that we all endeavour to be better than Ron. Happier, more sane, and more able to help others around us. Flourish and prosper.
At his best, that is what he wanted. At his worst, what he teaches us is the solution.
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alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
I get the impression that there are certain people that have the natural gift of auditing, and the simple tools of book 1 dianetics were enough tools for them to do any thing that the whole bridge is there for...
People like Ron, Phil, Alan? And the rest of the tech is for people who lack natural telepathy and need a meter, and who have case that blocks them from fully being there, confronting and perceiving. Those people need more tools, vias to get around their lacks, or impediments.
Perhaps ask phil to comment on this and on being honorary class 13, and on early dianetics. I recently reread DMSMH and was amazed at what was in there. Everything, just not expounded on.
Also, it seems Hubbard got rid of anyone who "shined". Ask him if there is any possibility that this was Hubbards way of viral marketing tech. Putting other teminals out there with it, on their own as parallel lines of ...... development? I know this violates the perception of Hubbard ego...but it would match his stated purposes.
lkwdblds
Crusader
Veda, I highlighted in red the last sentence of your first paragraph. I have several questions about this statement. It seems to be me he also did not like or respect most non Scientologists as well. Do you agree with that? If that is true, then he did not like or respect people in general.
The thought occurred to me that perhaps Scientologists were unworthy of his respect because he considered them fools for falling for his self created scriptures, mainly made up to dupe people and get their money. If this is correct, then he would tend to respect certain non Scientologists more just by virtue of them not falling for his made up religion.
Pursuing this thought a little further, if a Scientologist began to see through Hubbard's schemes and sometimes act independently of Hubbard, you would think that person would gain a measure of Hubbard's respect but that seems to not be the case. If someone boldly stood up with great integrity and did not follow Hubbard's party line, rather than earning a measure of respect, that person was immediately offloaded. In this manner, the game was rigged as a lose-lose game. If you play ball with Hubbard, you lose his respect, because you allowed yourself to be duped and if you confront Hubbard on equal terms and refuse to be duped, he does not want you around and he blackens your name with false charges and dismisses you.
Wouldn't this be the possible behavior pattern of narcissists in general? It is a construct of how the world looks as seen through the eyes of a person who is an "only one" or a "Source". Both the sheep, who are there to follow, and the renegades who are Innovaters and are made of tougher fiber, are there solely to be used by the "Only One". The sheep flow admiration, adulation, money and power to "the Source" while the Innovators can be used as sounding boards to test new ideas on and are kept around as long as they Innovate and add to and reinforce the Scriptures of "Source". By the very definition of "Source", there is room for only "Source" at the top and "Source" must remain aloof and have no "Vice Source" exist. Source knows that every Innovator will be dismissed at some point when his or her usefullness has been used up. It is interesting to see which innovators lasted the longest. Mayo, Urquhart, Yvonne - somewhere around 15 to 20 years for them. Kemp thought he was still LRH's friend, long after LRH got rid of him.
Finally, a word about those that would not join his game in the first place. Not joining in no way earns them a measure of respect. Rather than admire them for figuring out the game is rigged and not signing on, Source looks at them as broken pieces in a game, too damaged to even realize there is a game going on.
Finally, Source gives names to his creations, names which are 180 degrees the reverse of what those creations really signify. Scientology is called, "The Only Game In the Universe Where Everyone Wins." although it is rigged as a lose-lose game. The Flag Land Base is called the "Friendliest Place in the World." When you get there, there is a feeling of being in a Military compound where your every move and utterance is being monitored. It is assumed that you are an enemy of the compound and that you are incapable of keeping in your own ethics and you must be forced to walk a straight and narrow path or you are doomed. The "Bridge" is called the "Bridge to Total Freedom" and yet it leads to a condition of total slavery and subservience to a Source, be it Hubbard or DM.
Lakey
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lkwdblds
Crusader
Hearing what Phil Spickler has to say would be awesome!
We on this thread seem to be like a rolling stone gathering more moss and momentum. Experiencing so many new revelations in the last 3 or 4 weeks, to then pick up yet further inside information from Phil Spickler would be a momentous experience. I was offered an opportunity to get acquainted with Phil around last August, when this thread was just starting to pick up steam. I wasn't up for such a challenge at that point but I am now.
Solving the riddle of LRH, the subjects 0f Dianetics and Scientology and the Church of Scientology is a large undertaking. This is especially true because from the start those subjects were designed so as not to be understandable or comprehend by anyone other than the elite insiders.
A tremendous amount of information is available on those subjects in books and on the internet. Judicious study and processing of all of that information yields a lot of knowledge and much of the riddles are solved. Studying the various materials will eventually lead one to a blank wall with seemingly no more to be found out. Perhaps a searcher has found 70% of what he is looking for. Can any more ever be found out?
SOURCES WHICH NO LONGER EXIST
I know Omar Garrison wrote a final LRH biography. The C of S did not want it published and bought out Garrison and threw the manuscript into the fire. I always hoped that somehow, Garrison or Armstrong or somebody had saved a copy of the manuscript which would one day surface. Maybe even DM had a copy printed before he threw the manuscript into the fire. I would say that the chances of a surviving copy of that biography are virutally zero.
Then there is Mary Sue Hubbard, she could have written a book and decided not to do so. Probably she signed off with the C of S that she would never write a book or reveal any inside information and I believe she lived her last years under a Sea Org guard in her own house so nothing will ever be forthcoming from that channel.
The last source for new information then, are the insider's who worked with LRH in person. Face's appearance on this thread has shown what new information an insider can reveal. I feel his presence here has increased my understanding of events from 70% comprehension to beyond 80%. Then as Blue pointed out, Michel from Lake Como, Italy briefly appeared and we picked up stats and data about the current scene as regards Solo NOTs at Flag. An amazing increase in our knowledged occurred from him.
And so it goes, it is apparent that any new information forthcoming will be received from those who worked at or near the top in the earlier days. This is one reason why hearing a Phil Spickler interview tape poses such an exciting anticipation of learning more.
Lakey
We on this thread seem to be like a rolling stone gathering more moss and momentum. Experiencing so many new revelations in the last 3 or 4 weeks, to then pick up yet further inside information from Phil Spickler would be a momentous experience. I was offered an opportunity to get acquainted with Phil around last August, when this thread was just starting to pick up steam. I wasn't up for such a challenge at that point but I am now.
Solving the riddle of LRH, the subjects 0f Dianetics and Scientology and the Church of Scientology is a large undertaking. This is especially true because from the start those subjects were designed so as not to be understandable or comprehend by anyone other than the elite insiders.
A tremendous amount of information is available on those subjects in books and on the internet. Judicious study and processing of all of that information yields a lot of knowledge and much of the riddles are solved. Studying the various materials will eventually lead one to a blank wall with seemingly no more to be found out. Perhaps a searcher has found 70% of what he is looking for. Can any more ever be found out?
SOURCES WHICH NO LONGER EXIST
I know Omar Garrison wrote a final LRH biography. The C of S did not want it published and bought out Garrison and threw the manuscript into the fire. I always hoped that somehow, Garrison or Armstrong or somebody had saved a copy of the manuscript which would one day surface. Maybe even DM had a copy printed before he threw the manuscript into the fire. I would say that the chances of a surviving copy of that biography are virutally zero.
Then there is Mary Sue Hubbard, she could have written a book and decided not to do so. Probably she signed off with the C of S that she would never write a book or reveal any inside information and I believe she lived her last years under a Sea Org guard in her own house so nothing will ever be forthcoming from that channel.
The last source for new information then, are the insider's who worked with LRH in person. Face's appearance on this thread has shown what new information an insider can reveal. I feel his presence here has increased my understanding of events from 70% comprehension to beyond 80%. Then as Blue pointed out, Michel from Lake Como, Italy briefly appeared and we picked up stats and data about the current scene as regards Solo NOTs at Flag. An amazing increase in our knowledged occurred from him.
And so it goes, it is apparent that any new information forthcoming will be received from those who worked at or near the top in the earlier days. This is one reason why hearing a Phil Spickler interview tape poses such an exciting anticipation of learning more.
Lakey
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
This is TOO RICH an opportunity to miss out. I'd LOVE to be a part of the audience. I've wanted to meet Phil for years.
See if he'll go along with multiple interviews. I'd like to hear him go on at length about various aspects of his scientology history:
e.g.
A. Initial involvement with scientology
B. his training as an Auditor
C. Interesting "case histories" he's encountered as an auditor - any personally identifying details removed of course.
D. his personal experiences with L.Ron Hubbard
E. Involvement with the orgs & GO
F. Involvement with the missions & mission holders
G. his personal experiences with other "notables", e.g. MSH, Mayo, Roos, Walter, CBR, etc.
H. His recollections from the events directly surrounding the Mission Holder's conference
I. His recollections of the Independent Field in the early 80's
J. His own recent activities & post-Co$ history
Phil's comments on each of the above just for starters would make fascinating videos.
Mark A. Baker
p.s. similars with Ken Urquhart, & David Mayo would also all be very desirable.
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
The sort of deep personal betrayals & abuses Hubbard used to implement what you consider was a form of "viral marketing" were wholly unethical & inexcusable. If that's the best "whitewash" you've got in your bucket, Alex, you would be better off re-posting MR's spin.
Mark A. Baker
lkwdblds
Crusader
Thanks Mark, for answering Alex so well!
Thanks Mark, I have Alex on ignore so this is the only way I find out what he says. You answered him very well.
Just as a further comment, I would cite David Mayo's Advanced Ability Centre in Santa Barbara as an an example of what happens when a source independent of the C of S opens up for business. At the time Hubbard was still living and Mayo was his most highly trained technical person. Hubbard could have allowed "viral marketing" and allowed Mayo to do business and see what type of technical developments he might come up with as per what Alex calls his stated goals, ,,,i,e, the phrase at the end of the Dianetics book which says, "For heavens sake, get busy and build a better bridge." Here was Mayo doing just that and he was visciously Fair Gamed such as no one before or since has ever been and his Org was totally destroyed with viscious fury.
EST spun off from C of S beginnings and was a potential source of "viral maketing". The attempts to destory it were so severe that any Scientologist who had been in EST could not rejoin Scientology until the entire EST movement was wiped out. No other form of ammends was to be allowed. Many more counter examples could be cited but these two will suffice.
Lakey
The sort of deep personal betrayals & abuses Hubbard used to implement what you consider was a form of "viral marketing" were wholly unethical & inexcusable. If that's the best "whitewash" you've got in your bucket, Alex, you would be better off re-posting MR's spin.
Mark A. Baker
Thanks Mark, I have Alex on ignore so this is the only way I find out what he says. You answered him very well.
Just as a further comment, I would cite David Mayo's Advanced Ability Centre in Santa Barbara as an an example of what happens when a source independent of the C of S opens up for business. At the time Hubbard was still living and Mayo was his most highly trained technical person. Hubbard could have allowed "viral marketing" and allowed Mayo to do business and see what type of technical developments he might come up with as per what Alex calls his stated goals, ,,,i,e, the phrase at the end of the Dianetics book which says, "For heavens sake, get busy and build a better bridge." Here was Mayo doing just that and he was visciously Fair Gamed such as no one before or since has ever been and his Org was totally destroyed with viscious fury.
EST spun off from C of S beginnings and was a potential source of "viral maketing". The attempts to destory it were so severe that any Scientologist who had been in EST could not rejoin Scientology until the entire EST movement was wiped out. No other form of ammends was to be allowed. Many more counter examples could be cited but these two will suffice.
Lakey
Blue Spirit
Silver Meritorious Patron
A Few Comments
Did LRH "Like or Respect ANYONE ???
Regarding Ray Kemp, his talk at the Mayo group in 1985, (the video of which
must have just been taken down) seemed to reveal that he maybe still liked
LRH basically, but he did say in a detached way, indicating that he was no longer the effect of LRH, that he would have a few words with him if had had the opportunity. He chuckled when he said it.
They did say also, I recall that LRH and MSH used to have serious fights when they lived in the Kemp's house, while not paying the promised rent.
Mike Goldstein told me that when he was on the Apollo, LRH did not answer his mail, but had certain persons doing that job who he knew.
Did LRH "Like or Respect ANYONE ???
Regarding Ray Kemp, his talk at the Mayo group in 1985, (the video of which
must have just been taken down) seemed to reveal that he maybe still liked
LRH basically, but he did say in a detached way, indicating that he was no longer the effect of LRH, that he would have a few words with him if had had the opportunity. He chuckled when he said it.
They did say also, I recall that LRH and MSH used to have serious fights when they lived in the Kemp's house, while not paying the promised rent.
Mike Goldstein told me that when he was on the Apollo, LRH did not answer his mail, but had certain persons doing that job who he knew.
alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
The sort of deep personal betrayals & abuses Hubbard used to implement what you consider was a form of "viral marketing" were wholly unethical & inexcusable. If that's the best "whitewash" you've got in your bucket, Alex, you would be better off re-posting MR's spin.
Mark A. Baker
Mark, there are games bigger than personal feelings, betrayal and abuse. They seem to be standard operating procedure in human "civilization". Functioning from a viewpoint exterior to that, may offer a different perspective. I was in no way whitewashing anything, but suggesting motive, and suggesting it be asked of someone closer to being able to answer it.
Yes as motive it would not be an optimum solution. But as a question I would like to hear the answer and thoughts from Phil, who usually has something brilliant to say, even when he doesnt try to.
I haven't heard Marty's spin on Hubbards excentricities. Perhaps you know him better and can relate what he has told you?
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