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FCDC circa 1970

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What's really needed is to identify local forces who would have a motive for ruthlessly hunting down the Taliban, and then just give them some guns and let them do what's needed.

Lest we forget *how* our current enemy in Afghanistan came into power: We found a bunch of local forces who had a motive for ruthlessly hunting down the Russians, and then just gave them some guns and let them do what's needed.

Sure, that's a simplified account, and the Saudis had quite a bit to throw in as well, but don't forget that these were our friends, or at least the enemy of our enemy, at one point.
 
Lest we forget *how* our current enemy in Afghanistan came into power: We found a bunch of local forces who had a motive for ruthlessly hunting down the Russians, and then just gave them some guns and let them do what's needed.

Sure, that's a simplified account, and the Saudis had quite a bit to throw in as well, but don't forget that these were our friends, or at least the enemy of our enemy, at one point.

What? Are you saying that being short sighted isn't a problem? That violence solves everything and that you don't reap what you whatever? :confused2:

Also, Popcorn. Yum.
 
Special Forces:

army2.jpg
 
you just want the benefits of belonging to that group, right?

On the subject of "White America would not have been able to build this country, except on the backs of exploited slaves": keep in mind that white folks were able to create civilizations in Europe without any access to sub-Saharan people, thank you very much. And blacks in the present-day US live a hell of a lot better than those in pretty-much any country in Africa.

A good argument could be made that slaves in the early 1800's lived better than their contemporaries in Africa, and better than a bunch of people in current-day Somalia or Rwanda.

In summary, I reject any attempt to run a "white guilt" argument on me.
 
Lest we forget *how* our current enemy in Afghanistan came into power: We found a bunch of local forces who had a motive for ruthlessly hunting down the Russians, and then just gave them some guns and let them do what's needed.

Sure, that's a simplified account, and the Saudis had quite a bit to throw in as well, but don't forget that these were our friends, or at least the enemy of our enemy, at one point.

And going earlier-similar, we supplied war materials to the Soviets that allowed them to fight off the Germans (to whom they were previously allied when the two of them started WW2 by invading Poland).

In real life, there are rarely solutions, only trade-offs. You handle the current situation as best you can. At the time, the Soviets were a bigger threat to us than Islamic radicalism. In present time, our big threats are Islamic radicalism, with an increasingly aggressive China shaping up to be the next threat (and meanwhile we arranged for China's industrialization over the last few decades by opening our markets to them).
 
On the subject of "White America would not have been able to build this country, except on the backs of exploited slaves": keep in mind that white folks were able to create civilizations in Europe without any access to sub-Saharan people, thank you very much. And blacks in the present-day US live a hell of a lot better than those in pretty-much any country in Africa.

A good argument could be made that slaves in the early 1800's lived better than their contemporaries in Africa, and better than a bunch of people in current-day Somalia or Rwanda.

In summary, I reject any attempt to run a "white guilt" argument on me.

I agree. Blacks should thank us for slavery. We were doing them a favor. You are very enlightened.
 
I don't agree with you often but you nailed this one directly and squarely.

I like hanging out with people who don't agree with me that often. It forces me to continually examine where I'm coming from.

When I'm not hanging out here, I associate with people who consider Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck to be squishy moderates.
 
I agree. Blacks should thank us for slavery. We were doing them a favor. You are very enlightened.

There's an interesting book "Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa", where journalist Keith Richburg, who spent three years in Africa as the Africa bureau chief for the Washington Post, came to an interesting conclusion.

Yes, slavery was bad. So? Take a look at human history. Humans do bad things to other humans. There's been lots of white-on-white slavery. The very word "slave" comes to us from all the Slavs that were enslaved. The Romans enslaved other Europeans. The peasants of Europe were effectively slaves to their feudal lords.

African Muslims took over one million Europeans as slaves from piracy and raids of coastal European towns. I don't see a fuss being made over those.
 
There's an interesting book "Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa", where journalist Keith Richburg, who spent three years in Africa as the Africa bureau chief for the Washington Post, came to an interesting conclusion.

Yes, slavery was bad. So? Take a look at human history. Humans do bad things to other humans. There's been lots of white-on-white slavery. The very word "slave" comes to us from all the Slavs that were enslaved. The Romans enslaved other Europeans. The peasants of Europe were effectively slaves to their feudal lords.

African Muslims took over one million Europeans as slaves from piracy and raids of coastal European towns. I don't see a fuss being made over those.

The reason your posts are so immature when it comes to history is that history is not a matter of good guys and bad guys, or right opinion versus wrong opinion.

You simply post conclusions from others who use history to forward their opinions. That is not what history is; that is not how professional historians view or use history. History is a series of accepted judgments.

You need to read history books; not political or social opinions and conclusions that use snippets from history to strengthen those opinions or win an argument.

You are just a fanatic of certain political and social views and use snapshots of history, out of context, to support your fanaticsm. And I use the word fanatic as Winston Churchill defined it: "A fanatic is someone who won't change his mind and can't change the subject." (why else would you derail all the hotties and babes on this thread to push your views?)

It is good that you have an interest in history, but you don't understand what history is or how to use it.

Slavery, in all the other civilization and cultures of the world was qualitatively different than slavery in America.

The difference is that all those other civilizations were not founded on the idea that all men were created equal and that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That incongruency in the basis of this nation brought certain economic interests into conflict with the principles and the cultural and moral beliefs of the episteme that existed in the United States at the time.

It isn't simply a matter of "so what?"

From Herodotus onward, an element of history is moral evaluation as much as anything else.

Slavery in the Arab world, or in Ancient Rome or Greece, or in Africa, or anywhere else in history never posed a moral dilemma in society. It did in America.

And this is how and why history is not simply a matter of using facts out of context to strengthen a political or social or prejudiced opinion.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
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Is this FCDC circa 1970?

Sure does not read like it now. I have a couple of history thingys, then I will hibernate from ESMB for awhile. The colonists wrote a letter to King George III demanding he stop sending slaves in 1763. They always talk about "taxation without representation," but there were a hell of a lot of grievances with the crown. Slavery most certainly was a contributor to the Revolution. Old Georgie refused to stop sending Africans over because he was making mucho mucho pounds Sterling...getting very rich. Before we became independent, there was a vote in the first continental congress to abolish slavery, and it failed by ONE vote.

In "Democracy in America," Alexis de Toqueville points out the difference between slave holding states and "free" states thus (paraphrasing): One can witness the industrious farmers in Ohio, producing many times what the Kentucky farms do across the river (I think Ohio river?) purely because the slaves have no incentive to produce. In the first book one about half way through. He had a scathing criticism of the practice, pointing out that forcing labor never
works well--and FREE independent farmers do very well indeed. Fuck this stuff about "on the backs of slaves whites got rich." Pure bull shite. de Toqueville also stated owning slaves was a huge drain on masters--taking care of them for life, feeding, housing. You don't have to take care of wage earners, they take care of themselves.
 
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