CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
I think that you are mis - remembering. It was Jim McMullin. My wife made out with him in the ASHO parking lot.
The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But
- Thread starter lkwdblds
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I think that you are mis - remembering. It was Jim McMullin. My wife made out with him in the ASHO parking lot.
lkwdblds
Crusader
You are right
I checked it out and Bobby Lyons was not in Downhill Racer. I never knew or heard of Jim McMullin so I did not get them confused. I was told back in 1970 that Lyons was a down hill racer in the movie of the same name. I just accepted that at face value. Of course there was no internet at that time and I personally had not seen the movie so I did not check it out.
Just now I Googled both the movie and Lyons and he definitely was not in that movie. All these years I believed that he was in it. I do not think it is a memory problem, rather someone told me that he got famous by having a part in that movie and I just accepted that at face value. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lakey
I checked it out and Bobby Lyons was not in Downhill Racer. I never knew or heard of Jim McMullin so I did not get them confused. I was told back in 1970 that Lyons was a down hill racer in the movie of the same name. I just accepted that at face value. Of course there was no internet at that time and I personally had not seen the movie so I did not check it out.
Just now I Googled both the movie and Lyons and he definitely was not in that movie. All these years I believed that he was in it. I do not think it is a memory problem, rather someone told me that he got famous by having a part in that movie and I just accepted that at face value. Thanks for clearing that up.
Lakey
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
I agree. Tyrfel is one of my favorites. As to Bartoli, she is a delightful talent yet I've another role in mind for her and singing is not required (although it remains an option).
Mark A. Baker
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
No, that is the old "everyone did it" defense.
Yes the culture was sexist. Still, agreement with and adoption of cultural prejudice is agreement with prejudice. Many sexist men have loved their wives & daughters while still denying them the same measure of respect as they would a male.
Incidentally the same goes with arguments about LRH's racism. LRH was raised in a blatantly racist culture. Accordingly he developed racist attitudes which remained with him all of his life. He may or may not have grown beyond the prejudices of his native culture, but judging by his many racially & culturally prejudiced remarks as recorded in his original taped lectures those early racist attitudes left their mark on his thinking throughout his life.
Cultural predilections are important to consider when seeking to understand the attitudes of an individual, but they are not excuses nor substitutes for his own responsibility for those attitudes & decisions.
Mozart's obvious talent is no more an excuse for his attitudes than were Hubbard's. Neither is any man's times or culture a total justification for his decisions. They are a context and supply a necessary background for a better understanding of him, but they do not serve as an "excuse".
Mark A. Baker
JackStraw
Silver Meritorious Patron
Especially for Carmelo, I think this may have been written with you in mind...
Merry Christmas, my friend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No2YsRK3bw0&feature=related
Jack
Merry Christmas, my friend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No2YsRK3bw0&feature=related
Jack
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Dilettante
Patron Meritorious
So I go to post and I think I should keep it relevant and read the posts leading up to here. Whew. That is a task and a half. So I'll be self centered and just go on like I have your attention just because I'm here. 
What a trippy- happy- Christmas this has been.
My resolution is to spend some time with you fine folks in person this year.
I want to share my joyous happenings this holiday but it would just be a dead giveaway.....I can say Illegal Alien warmed my heart to no end.
I guess I am NOT as under the radar as I thought but no-one is calling me out. Yet.
I am ever thankful for the connections I have and maintain and I know how good I have it. My wish is for your connections to satisfy the best of you.
Carmelo- HI!!!
Lkwdblds- I read you like a book. Really, a good one.
Zinj- nice to see you
Mark A. Baker- good stuff. Lincoln was a seperatist, too.
Dil
What a trippy- happy- Christmas this has been.
My resolution is to spend some time with you fine folks in person this year. I want to share my joyous happenings this holiday but it would just be a dead giveaway.....I can say Illegal Alien warmed my heart to no end.
I guess I am NOT as under the radar as I thought but no-one is calling me out. Yet.
I am ever thankful for the connections I have and maintain and I know how good I have it. My wish is for your connections to satisfy the best of you. Carmelo- HI!!!
Lkwdblds- I read you like a book. Really, a good one.
Zinj- nice to see you
Mark A. Baker- good stuff. Lincoln was a seperatist, too.
Dil
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Happy Holidays, Dilly! You're always welcome here, relevancy notwithstanding! Glad to hear that things are going well with you!
I am just back from a Festivus party, really! Yummy food and drink, and fun conversation with plenty of laughs...ah, life is good. 
It may rain again tomorrow, and I am still drying out from our recent big rains! But for the moment, all is well, and I am feeling peaceful and contented for the new year!
Glad to hear that things are going well with you! I am just back from a Festivus party, really!
Yummy food and drink, and fun conversation with plenty of laughs...ah, life is good. It may rain again tomorrow, and I am still drying out from our recent big rains! But for the moment, all is well, and I am feeling peaceful and contented for the new year!
Dilettante
Patron Meritorious
Sweetness!That's what I'm talking about!
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Especially for Carmelo, I think this may have been written with you in mind...
Merry Christmas, my friend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No2YsRK3bw0&feature=related
Jack
There certainly appears to be a lot of water out there right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdrGS__yg6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwDh-xea40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t4g_1VoGw4
Hatshepsut
Crusader
What a great Peter, Paul and Mary clip
I grew up with them playing on the hifi in the livingroom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OCnHNk2Hac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qylHHgTC5sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk3mAX5xdxo
I grew up with them playing on the hifi in the livingroom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OCnHNk2Hac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qylHHgTC5sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk3mAX5xdxo
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lkwdblds
Crusader
Assertion and pontification
MAB -
You are up to your old tactics. First pontification, asserting your own point of view as absolute authority and second, deeming points of view other than your own as ill informed, simplistic and just plain wrong.
I submit that in the 18th century there were no birth control pills, there was no electricity and none of the labor saving devices such as washers, dryers and all the kitchen appliances which have lessened or eliminated jobs formerly done by the women in the family. No baby formulas were in existence and the Mothers of the time had to either nurse their babies through their breast milk or hire wet nurses. The children could not be placed in front of a TV set, a computer or a Video Game system but the Mothers had to actually spend time raising their children in the flesh. Often in smaller towns, the Mothers were active in teaching their children, if there were no public schools.
From the earliest cave man days up through the beginning of the 1960's, all societies which I know of, Western, Eastern, Native American, Eskimo or whatever were "sexist" by today's standards. According to MAB, every man in all of those thousands of years of societies was a sexist.
I would venture to say that MAB himself lived many lives in those types of societies and was just as sexist as the rest of us, all those thousands of years. So why single out Wolfgang Mozart as being sexist - it is just a cheap shot to throw a little mud on a man whose genius contributed a lot towards music and the arts on this planet.
I would also venture to say that MAB, being very educated and erudite undoubtedly lived lives as a slave owner in various societies throughout history and in doing so, at those times, he was just as racist as any of us who owned slaves.
THE PROPER BEHAVIOR FOR A WEALTHY WHITE MAN WHO WAS BORN INTO A FAMILY WHICH OWNED SLAVES.
Imagine a white male child being born of sound mind and healthy body who in his heart had no concept whatever that any race was superior over any other race. Say this individual was born in the Southern part of the USA into a wealthy family which owned slaves. Should this boy, when reaching 21 just go out and against his families wishes simply release all the slaves from bondage and set them free. Clearly, this extreme idealistic position, though perhaps the correct thing to do, could not, in practicality, be done.
First, the boy would have to circulate among the slaves while growing up and find out that they were wonderful intelligent people, his full equal. He would have to question his parents, teachers, etc as to why this particular racial group was being kept as slaves.
Once hearing all the supposed reasons, the boy would have to come to the realization that all the given reason were false and then he would have to come to the conclusion that slavery was wrong and that it needed to be ended en masse. This state being achieved, the boy would most likely go into politics where he had the best chance of undoing slavery. His only other venue to get the job done might be to become a religious leader.
He goes into politics and attempts to introduce laws to ban slavery. He is met with enormous opposition, both from people with a huge economic interest in keeping slavery alive and from people who are just out and out racists and believe the slave race is inferior. To finally force slavery to be abandoned, many compromises have to be made between pro slave and anti slave factions and finally a major war is fought between the two camps.
I find it a tremendous achievement that the USA inherited legal slavery from the British colonialists, became an independent country in 1776, and by 1865 slavery was abolished. In 89 years, just one lifetime, enough people of good will followed the path of the boy I described above and got the job done against enormous resistance by powerful vested interests arrayed against them. The society which pulled off this miracle is considered blatantly racist by MAB and his cronies.
Lakey
No, that is the old "everyone did it" defense.
I never heard of this defense, it is not old to me. Common sense would dictate that if virtually all people in a society hold a certain point of view, say being 'sexist" in the 21st century context of the word, then to label one individual in that 18th century society as sexist would have no meaning nor carry any weight as a label.
Yes the culture was sexist. Still, agreement with and adoption of cultural prejudice is agreement with prejudice. Many sexist men have loved their wives & daughters while still denying them the same measure of respect as they would a male.
MAB, can you please give us a specific example of Mozart denying his wife, mother, sister or daughters the same measure of respect as he would a male? (he had daughters who died in infanthood)
Incidentally the same goes with arguments about LRH's racisNo, the culture was not sexist. There was no such word as sexism at that time and problably no such concept existed. One could interview both men and women, far and wide and ask them to name sexist individuals and probably no one would have a clue as to what the interviewer was talking about.
LRH was raised in a blatantly racist culture. Accordingly he developed racist attitudes which remained with him all of his life. He may or may not have grown beyond the prejudices of his native culture, but judging by his many racially & culturally prejudiced remarks as recorded in his original taped lectures those early racist attitudes left their mark on his thinking throughout his life.
I don't believe LRH was a racist nor do I believe he was raised in a blatantly racist culture. When I was public and staff in C of S, spanning over 30 years, I saw no prejudice whatsoever going on against people of any particular race. Also, I found no racism whatever in LRH writings and books or in any of the "tech" he developed or the creeds he subscribed to.
He was not raised in the South where Jim Crow held sway and to me the USA, where he was raised, was a leader amongst countries in eliminating racism and creating a society where the races all unite and interact with equal rights.
Cultural predilections are important to consider when seeking to understand the attitudes of an individual, but they are not excuses nor substitutes for his own responsibility for those attitudes & decisions.
Mozart's obvious talent is no more an excuse for his attitudes than were Hubbard's. Neither is any man's times or culture a total justification for his decisions. They are a context and supply a necessary background for a better understanding of him, but they do not serve as an "excuse".
This would then include today's times and you have no excuse to use our current times as a total justification for you decisions which deem earlier times sexist or racist by imposing the morals of a multiracial 21st century society upon uniracial societies of previous centuries.
Mark A. Baker
MAB -
You are up to your old tactics. First pontification, asserting your own point of view as absolute authority and second, deeming points of view other than your own as ill informed, simplistic and just plain wrong.
I submit that in the 18th century there were no birth control pills, there was no electricity and none of the labor saving devices such as washers, dryers and all the kitchen appliances which have lessened or eliminated jobs formerly done by the women in the family. No baby formulas were in existence and the Mothers of the time had to either nurse their babies through their breast milk or hire wet nurses. The children could not be placed in front of a TV set, a computer or a Video Game system but the Mothers had to actually spend time raising their children in the flesh. Often in smaller towns, the Mothers were active in teaching their children, if there were no public schools.
From the earliest cave man days up through the beginning of the 1960's, all societies which I know of, Western, Eastern, Native American, Eskimo or whatever were "sexist" by today's standards. According to MAB, every man in all of those thousands of years of societies was a sexist.
I would venture to say that MAB himself lived many lives in those types of societies and was just as sexist as the rest of us, all those thousands of years. So why single out Wolfgang Mozart as being sexist - it is just a cheap shot to throw a little mud on a man whose genius contributed a lot towards music and the arts on this planet.
I would also venture to say that MAB, being very educated and erudite undoubtedly lived lives as a slave owner in various societies throughout history and in doing so, at those times, he was just as racist as any of us who owned slaves.
THE PROPER BEHAVIOR FOR A WEALTHY WHITE MAN WHO WAS BORN INTO A FAMILY WHICH OWNED SLAVES.
Imagine a white male child being born of sound mind and healthy body who in his heart had no concept whatever that any race was superior over any other race. Say this individual was born in the Southern part of the USA into a wealthy family which owned slaves. Should this boy, when reaching 21 just go out and against his families wishes simply release all the slaves from bondage and set them free. Clearly, this extreme idealistic position, though perhaps the correct thing to do, could not, in practicality, be done.
First, the boy would have to circulate among the slaves while growing up and find out that they were wonderful intelligent people, his full equal. He would have to question his parents, teachers, etc as to why this particular racial group was being kept as slaves.
Once hearing all the supposed reasons, the boy would have to come to the realization that all the given reason were false and then he would have to come to the conclusion that slavery was wrong and that it needed to be ended en masse. This state being achieved, the boy would most likely go into politics where he had the best chance of undoing slavery. His only other venue to get the job done might be to become a religious leader.
He goes into politics and attempts to introduce laws to ban slavery. He is met with enormous opposition, both from people with a huge economic interest in keeping slavery alive and from people who are just out and out racists and believe the slave race is inferior. To finally force slavery to be abandoned, many compromises have to be made between pro slave and anti slave factions and finally a major war is fought between the two camps.
I find it a tremendous achievement that the USA inherited legal slavery from the British colonialists, became an independent country in 1776, and by 1865 slavery was abolished. In 89 years, just one lifetime, enough people of good will followed the path of the boy I described above and got the job done against enormous resistance by powerful vested interests arrayed against them. The society which pulled off this miracle is considered blatantly racist by MAB and his cronies.
Lakey
Hatshepsut
Crusader
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CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
In about that year, there was a "Time" article / expose of "Puff"
That same year, I remember smoking a banana peel joint with my girl friend (she looks so straight, she wasn't -- introduced me to jazz and the beats especially "On the Road"). We smoked other things besides banana peels.
because of this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCjv2OiTxE
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
The Byrds and "Mr. Tambourine Man" came out when I was in 9th grade. I remember being in junior high and drinking wine on the playground during lunch with the bunch of long haired and super intellectual group I hung with. We were all honor students, and the administration never mucked with us. We kept the schools' scores high in competition with other schools. We were untouchable.
Then in 1967, there was the Summer of Love
This was photographed at the Monterey Pop Festival, which I attended.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bch1_Ep5M1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szYzY10NNFk
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