I AM A CHRISTIAN SCIENTOLOGIST

[Pip]

Which bit made you 'throw up' - the power bit or the 'what is greatness' bit?

 

[Gadfly]

I pointed out that "Wars" are started because people attack things others hold "Sacred" because you hold nothing Sacred, (and it's your right) does not give you the right to yell "fire" in the theatre!My point was he (Clarence) was picking a fight!

Once again I will keep saying it...I fought for those rights in the U.S. Army for the Freedom of Religion, and the freedom from it. I found another of his posts that called Christians murderers and terrorists, the same old junk over and over. Because someone claims to be a "whatever" and commits crimes against humanity should not indite the whole.

And it is "serious" when you understand that "blanket" hatred of all Christians is bigotry! Obviously it's OK to bash Christians because of things one group did to another. Hatred is the cause not Christianity, or Islam, or Scientology. But hatred from people!

When Catholics and Protestants kill each other, it's hatred not doctrines setting off the bombs! So yes I get riled up when idiots accuse "everybody/them" for being evil when the same vile is coming out of them.

"You and others like you?" Really? Your a hypocrite by your own confession when you generalize..."you people"...them...you can't stand any other Idea but your own!

I just re-read your post, and you are correct, I may very well have "read something into it" that wasn't originally there. But, I still stand by my comments though they should NOT have been directed at you.

I can agree with most of what you say above. So, I have no reason to take aim at "you".

Any set of beliefs are fine with me, as long as these beliefs do NOT cause some institutionalized group to act in ways that most would consider deceitful, dishonest, manipulative, ultra-controlling, and/or which results in the harm of innocent people.

There are many Christians who hurt nobody, and who I am friends with, and we even talk "religion" from time to time - and I am the one being the most careful not to step on "their toes". I fully understand that different versions of Christianity at different times manifested and behaved in very different ways.

Of course the problem with institutionalized Scientology, in any form, back in the 1960s or NOW, is that it must ALWAYS act in ways many would consider deceitful, dishonest, manipulative, ultra-controlling, and/or which results in the harm of innocent people, because Hubbard created an organization that MUST ALWAYS FOLLOW HIS POLICIES EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. He made sure that the organization would continue to move forward through time with THAT key and primary maxim always adhered to - that change and alteration could and would not come to his organization. For the most part, that it is why the Scientology organization continues to originate really dumb or nasty shenanigans.

Again, I did "read more into your post than was there". My bad. Am I alllowed to admit error and take it back and correct my original comment?

 

[Mystic]

 

[xguardian]

I got very excited about your reply

Quote from xguardian
I appreciate your "coming out" and of course you did so with the realization that the "World" will hate you. Nothing worse than a "Christian WOG" ...before an "EX" was ex, anyone not a Scientologist was a WOG...now you are really a threat to ones who blame all religion for the ills of society etc..

There is only one thing worse than a “Christian Wog” and that’s a ChristianScientologist – the ultimate No Win Scenario. (Joke)

As a "born again" Christian, it is my belief that at your conversion, you had an experience which for all intents and purposes is when you became "CLEAR" ...at least a tone scale condition of 4.0 was experienced as you felt all your past overts were nullified and faith that you would no longer be effect to guilt,fear, shame, hate, etc..having the power to be in PT, no longer shackled to those misemotions.

I get your point though at present I see it as OT because I was restored to my right relationship with my Heavenly father. See Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34-36.

This makes you a danger to CoS since "The Baptism of The Holy Ghost" is free!
I might term myself a Born Again Christian who uses Dianetics and LRH's Management Tech, but I cannot reconcile the Cosmology to Biblical Theology.

The reason the Cosmology of Scientology appears not reconcilable with the Bible is because Christians have some very fundamental mis-understandings with what the Bible is saying. Without a metaphysical understanding of Scripture the two cosmologies will remain irreconcilable. I have found Christian Science to be a useful bridge. As a “born again” clear I am a threat to both The Church of Scientology and the Christian Church, since both thrive on power and control.

Either LRH plagiarized much Scientology cosmology from the Bible, or else he may have become a Christian himself if he studied it and could humble himself through repentance when he found the truth of the divine nature the scriptures reveal.

The scariest thing to the ego is surrender.

For example Darwin later converted to Christianity while trying to reconcile his theory of evolution to biblical exegesis..and found hid divine truth. While there is no "statement of faith" in Scientology that you must believe in the sci-fi cosmology, you will be considered "off" believing that SOURCE (GOD) manifested himself in the flesh as Jesus Christ in order to redeem mankind from evil.

That is where Christian Science can be helpful.

The fact that LRH may have been less than favorable towards Christianity lies mostly in the fact he thought he was Buddha. Buddha never claimed to be God, in fact was not even a deist. He was the consummate "Humanistic-Gnostic/Mystic. So to also believe that any Being is more OT than LRH is "Blasphemy" to some. Ff
course that is the atheist's main problem, the thought that they are not 'as like God' fuels their unbelief in one where the universe is then God-centered and not self-centered.

Ron had a basic mis-understanding between soul and spirit. When he discovered past lives he thought he had discovered the Spirit but in fact he had discovered the soul.

A "Christian Scientologist" might find it difficult to actually try to teach a systematic blend of Scientology and Christianity without being a "squirrel." Ironically, as you probably have discerned, if Div 6 and PR, and study tech could be taught to be applied to Christian outreach, discipleship, leadership, and education, it could be a powerful tandem, and vice-verse. Just because LRH is not divine, does not take anything away from his Tech. Whats true is true, what is not is not, and I won't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

A ChristianScientologist is not a blend of Christianity and Scientology. A ChristianScientologist is fully Christian and fully a Scientologist. There is a Pentecostal church in America that uses the study tech. with their parishioners and finds it most helpful.

Dianetics is a more valid science of the mind than "old school" psychiatry. However there has been some excellent discoveries concerning "neuro-pathways in the brain that has opened new potential to treat mental conditions with a whole new science.

Science is always developing hence Scientology must develop with it.

The Bible has always taught positive 'thought conditioning' through affecting behavior modification. Add the belief that God is involved in the equation is absolute science! Call it placebo effect with or without divine intervention according to your own faith.

Hence Paul says, in effect, the law (Scientology) is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

But alas, there is a major chasm between financial philosophies. If Christianity charged for each class and level instead of free will donation, it would go broke. If Scientology made Dianetics a donation based ministry, Psychiatry might actually have to reform to compete...go figure!

A quote I like from “A Course in Miracles” is “Only an unhealed healer charges” but then a workman is worthy of his hire.

Watchman Nee's Book..."The Latent Power of the Soul" is available online http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/bookcat.htm and is one of the best explanations of soul vs spirit power and his other books are very good also..."Release of the Spirit" is invaluable. The paradox to live one must die (to self) is summed up and sheds light on the Death Burial and Resurrection that even non-believers can see the benefit of using it as an allegory to deal with the ego and selfish pride that traps the mind and soul in the lower tone scale where we find the "degraded (lost) beings.

 

[xguardian]

I just re-read your post, and you are correct, I may very well have "read something into it" that wasn't originally there. But, I still stand by my comments though they should NOT have been directed at you.

I can agree with most of what you say above. So, I have no reason to take aim at "you".

Any set of beliefs are fine with me, as long as these beliefs do NOT cause some institutionalized group to act in ways that most would consider deceitful, dishonest, manipulative, ultra-controlling, and/or which results in the harm of innocent people.



There are many Christians who hurt nobody, and who I am friends with, and we even talk "religion" from time to time - and I am the one being the most careful not to step on "their toes". I fully understand that different versions of Christianity at different times manifested and behaved in very different ways.

Of course the problem with institutionalized Scientology, in any form, back in the 1960s or NOW, is that it must ALWAYS act in ways many would consider deceitful, dishonest, manipulative, ultra-controlling, and/or which results in the harm of innocent people, because Hubbard created an organization that MUST ALWAYS FOLLOW HIS POLICIES EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. He made sure that the organization would continue to move forward through time with THAT key and primary maxim always adhered to - that change and alteration could and would not come to his organization. For the most part, that it is why the Scientology organization continues to originate really dumb or nasty shenanigans.

Again, I did "read more into your post than was there". My bad. Am I alllowed to admit error and take it back and correct my original comment?

And please forgive me if I was too hard also...it's like gun control...Christianity/Islam/Judaism etc.. does not harm...it's the people who do not handle it properly that do harm.

The "watchword is moderation" there's a ditch on both sides of every road...stay centered and you won't fall into either.

 

[xguardian]

Watchman Nee's Book..."The Latent Power of the Soul" is available online http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/bookcat.htm and is one of the best explanations of soul vs spirit power and his other books are very good also..."Release of the Spirit" is invaluable. The paradox to live one must die (to self) is summed up and sheds light on the Death Burial and Resurrection that even non-believers can see the benefit of using it as an allegory to deal with the ego and selfish pride that traps the mind and soul in the lower tone scale where we find the "degraded (lost) beings.

ps...I sent you a PM with a link you might like.

 

[J. Swift]

Pip, if you were saved by Christ then just whom did Christ forgive?

In other words, what is your case level as a Scientologist?

Did you know that OT Levels are by invitation only? As an orthodox Christian you would never be allowed to do the OT levels due to prohibition against "Other Practices."

So just what is your case level?


/////

 

[Gadfly]

The first thing is to recognise your Native State is power and don't disconnect. There is a level above communication and that is communion. Ron sums it up in his "What is greatness".

Which bit made you 'throw up' - the power bit or the 'what is greatness' bit?

First, the notion "Native State" means MANY different things to many different people. It exists largely as an IDEA entirely divorced from any reality, and since the idea is not at all rooted in any observable anything, what people see, feel or imagine this "native state" to be is wildly variable. And, how this "native state" relates to other things and ideas, as ideas, is wildly variable from person to person. Starting ANY conversation with a largely undefined term that does NOT share some widespread commonly accept meaning sets it up for a loss. It doesn't refer to, define or point to ANY actual reality that people can look at sharing a similar viewpoint.

Second, you throw out the term "native state" as if it is some "real thing". It may be. And, maybe not. Not as you conceive it, and maybe not as others conceive it. It is mostly an IDEA that has no connection to much of anything outside of any person's imagination. It is like a unicorn. Nobody has ever actually seen one, but there are lots of people who like to think and talk about unicorns. :confused2:

So, that is bad enough, but then you attach that vague notion with another concept of Scientology that means different things to different people - "power". Power as what? Ability to hold a position in space? The potential to do work? Speed of particle flow? What the fuck does the word even mean? Or more to the point, what ACTUALITY does it represent? Outside of a vague and shape-shifting IDEA?

When I say the word "tree", well we all have seen a tree. When I say the word "fast", probably all of us have seen at least a few examples of things "going fast". When I say the word "mental picture", most of us can recall a time that we thought about and "looked at" some "mental picture". But, "native state"? What "thing" does THAT refer to? :confused2: My point is that while it MIGHT refer to something, and I am very familar with Hubbard's and other similar ideas, there is no thing that people have a shared common experience with here, that they can talk about, as with a "tree", "fast" or "mental picture".

So, your first sentence starts with the connection of two horrendously abstract notions. Simply, because of the vagueness, it can mean anything to anyone. That is NOT a "good thing". And, to make matters worse, those two ideas are wrapped in Scientology-related nonsense (significance).

Next, saying that there is some level above communication, where "communication" is another Scientology loaded-term. And, of course, the term "communion", outside of some vague relation to a cool book on alien abductions by Whitley Strieber, has NOTHING at all to do with anything mentioned in Scientology.

The notion of "communion" is entirely alien to Hubbard's paradigm ("alien" - get it?). But, I am sure through some amazing arbitrary personal definition of terms, jumping through hoops of logic, and intense mental gymnastics, somehow the notion of "communion" can "make sense" in some Scientoogy-related context. Most of Scientology, and Christianity, are flawed enough as it is, but putting them both together?

And, "communion" is another term that defines no exact specific thing and means something very different to different people. So, we then have you somehow relating "communication" and "communion", which basically again says nothing - not outside of the imaginations of most people.

The last line tipped me over the edge though. That LRH issue, while I like some of it, is the ONLY place in all of the HUGE spewings of Hubbard that mentions the concept of "love", and the ideas in it were NEVER applied by Hubbard himself or encouraged to be applied by Scientology members. In fact, following all other LRH policies makes it quite IMPOSSIBLE to apply "loving others despite all reasons not to do so". Of course, if you choose to ignore and omit a great deal of the "stupid" LRH ideas, well then MAYBE.

Ron sums up nothing in his issue, "What is Greatness". He tosses out some ideas, probably as "fluff" to act as one of the "nice and attractive ideas" designed to sucker and keep people in.

 

[Gadfly]

And please forgive me if I was too hard also...it's like gun control...Christianity/Islam/Judaism etc.. does not harm...it's the people who do not handle it properly that do harm.

The "watchword is moderation" there's a ditch on both sides of every road...stay centered and you won't fall into either.

Though, a major problem with Scientology, as far as this analogy goes, is that the "gun" has very specific instructions about how and when to use it, and who to shoot! While many Christians can and do selectively ignore, and choose not to "apply" certain nutty notions in the Bible, not is the case in Scientology where it is foisted upon ALL as an "all-or-none" proposition.

While, yes, people do the dirty deeds in Scientology, these dirty deeds are clearly laid out in policy and heavily enforced by standard Scientology management. The subject itself contains the urgings and DEMAND to follow it exactly. If people actually followed all of the Bible EXACTLY, we would be in deep shit. But, they don't. In Scientology they DO, and they ALWAYS do.

That is what "standard Sceintology" means - doing it exactly, altering nothing, taking out nothing, and keeping it unchanged since the day Hubbard wrote it down with that Kool cigarette dangling out of his mouth.

 

[Clarence Rockaway]

Did you move to Arizona for health reasons? The climate there will not help bitterness & hate. Hope you get better

Your delusion that 18 centuries of murders, religious wars, burnings and beheadings shoudn't be criticized because that particular genocidal madness is some fools' 'cherished beliefs' is pretty sick. Are we supposed to countenance Al Quaida, because some think terrorism is the road to Allah? No. Christianity has more blood on its hands than all the islamic killers since Mohammed. So I'm bitter because I won't tolerate your promotion of spiritual entrapment and death, is that it? I'm full of hate because I object to Christianity's unparalled beastiality. As long as there's a breath in my body, I will loudly speak against you and other spiritual criminals who promote the greatest evil and blood drenched inhumanity that ever cumbered the planet. And the more you try to cloak it in love, holiness, goodness, and respectability, the louder and more energetically I'll denounce it. YOU promote hate, YOU promote bitterness when you speak in glowing terms of that satanic wickedness called Christianity!!!

 

[Gadfly]

Your delusion that 18 centuries of murders, religious wars, burnings and beheadings shoudn't be criticized because that particular genocidal madness is some fools' 'cherished beliefs' is pretty sick. Are we supposed to countenance Al Quaida, because some think terrorism is the road to Allah? No. Christianity has more blood on its hands than all the islamic killers since Mohammed. So I'm bitter because I won't tolerate your promotion of spiritual entrapment and death, is that it? I'm full of hate because I object to Christianity's unparalled beastiality. As long as there's a breath in my body, I will loudly speak against you and other spiritual criminals who promote the greatest evil and blood drenched inhumanity that ever cumbered the planet. And the more you try to cloak it in love, holiness, goodness, and respectability, the louder and more energetically I'll denounce it. YOU promote hate, YOU promote bitterness when you speak in glowing terms of that satanic wickedness called Christianity!!!

In ANY religion there is usually a LARGE amount of "data", or "dogma", or "scripture", or whatever. There is LOTS of it, often with many contradictions in meaning and expected behaviors. At ANY point in time, at point in history, some group or person of authority decides which exact points will hold the most importance, which will possess the least importance, and with all other aspects of the "faith" lining up between those two extremes. This CHANGES with time, depending on WHO is doing the interpreting. The magnitude of importances and the relationships between various notions SHIFTS and CHANGES over time. That is just the way it is human human societies and groups (when examined over longer periodds of time).

There are two aspects to it. There is the raw data - the "dogma" (the subject materials), and there is WHAT any group of people does with it in terms of interpretation, sorting out of meaning and importances, and actual behavior with other people. Yes, the "materials" DO DEFINE AND ENCOURAGE certain behaviors. But, the force on various points differs for each religion, and changes over time with each. Currently, some aspects of Islam and ALL of organized Scientology are extremely FUNDAMENTALIST (sticking 100% to "what is written").

Christianity was insane for a great part of its history. But also, and not that this excuses it, but the ENTIRE WORLD has been insane for the great majority of its history. Today, in modern times, Christianity is NOT at all the SAME as it was in 16th Spain during the Spanish Inquisition. Personally, as I see it, to still carry a strong feeling of dislike towards Christianity, today, implies that the person with such a view is somewhat stuck and obsessed with the PAST.

Such a person enters "omitted time" into their framework of thinking by disregarding that these "crimes of Christianity" are largely in the past, and ANY such crimes that exist today (bombing abortion clinics, beating up gays, etc.) are committed by a VERY SMALL segment of the Christian population.

It doesn't matter that Christianity has "so much blood on its hands" - Christianity (as some "thing" to like or hate) is only an ABSTRACT IDEA. There is no such thing as "Christianity" outside of the general diverse subject materials, and WHAT any person DOES with those materials at any time. Today, most people do NOT use it to encourage or justify any sort of "religious crime". Most people are involved with for 1) a sense of community, 2) SOME form of encouragement to try to be a better person, and 3) a spiritual connection and/or guidance. THAT is what it is to and for most people TODAY.

Any IDEA about it "having all this blood on its hands", other than as an historical fact of the PAST, is created in YOUR HEAD, and then you react emotionally against this self-created IDEA. I mean, sure, if Catholic priests were dragging people out of their homes, conducting shame "trials", and then torturing and murdering heretics NOW, today, in modern times, then HELL YEAH, GET MAD and FIGHT it until they are GONE. But, that is NOT today's actual situation.

I suggest that you get into PT.

 

[Clarence Rockaway]

Clarence I read your post and it gave me a new depth to the meaning of 'line charging' and I have just read it again and am still going.

The best I can get out of Bellevue is beautiful view, please explain.

It's the chief insane asylum in New York City. It's a bye-word for nut house in the USA.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Actually, it was a leading full service medical center in it's day, making several important advances in medical science, as well as having treatment for mental disorders :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellevue_Hospital_Center

Pretty interesting.

"Affiliated with the New York University School of Medicine since 1968, Bellevue has been the site of many milestones in the history of medicine, from the establishment of the first ambulance service and first maternity ward, to the development of the polio vaccine, and Nobel Prize-winning cardiac catheterization laboratory."

 

[Clarence Rockaway]

I don't have any armour other than "The full armour of God". Ephesians 6:10-18

If your armor is provided by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then you have it. If it comes to you through the twin brother of Satan, Jesus Christ, all you have is a delusion. And since you quote the N.T. as your source, I fear it's the latter.

 

[Clarence Rockaway]

Actually, it was a leading full service medical center in it's day, making several important advances in medical science, as well as having treatment for mental disorders :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellevue_Hospital_Center

Pretty interesting.

"Affiliated with the New York University School of Medicine since 1968, Bellevue has been the site of many milestones in the history of medicine, from the establishment of the first ambulance service and first maternity ward, to the development of the polio vaccine, and Nobel Prize-winning cardiac catheterization laboratory."

Thank you, Mary Margaret McBride

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Your delusion that 18 centuries of murders, religious wars, burnings and beheadings shoudn't be criticized because that particular genocidal madness is some fools' 'cherished beliefs' is pretty sick. Are we supposed to countenance Al Quaida, because some think terrorism is the road to Allah? No. Christianity has more blood on its hands than all the islamic killers since Mohammed. So I'm bitter because I won't tolerate your promotion of spiritual entrapment and death, is that it? I'm full of hate because I object to Christianity's unparalled beastiality. As long as there's a breath in my body, I will loudly speak against you and other spiritual criminals who promote the greatest evil and blood drenched inhumanity that ever cumbered the planet. And the more you try to cloak it in love, holiness, goodness, and respectability, the louder and more energetically I'll denounce it. YOU promote hate, YOU promote bitterness when you speak in glowing terms of that satanic wickedness called Christianity!!!

The Jews stoned people during Old Testament times.

Point being, organized religions are controlling and often scary and abusive. Yet there's much beauty in many of them.

Please stop bashing this guy's religion.

 

[Clarence Rockaway]

The Jews stoned people during Old Testament times.

Point being, organized religions are controlling and often scary and abusive. Yet there's much beauty in many of them.

Please stop bashing this guy's religion.

When he ceases to declare it to be holy and sacred and waving it about in the face of those who are on this site to discuss Scientology, I'll stop bashing it. Otherwise, you might as well ask me not to smash a cockroach, were I to find one on my kitchen floor.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

When he ceases to declare it to be holy and sacred and waving it about in the face of those who are on this site to discuss Scientology, I'll stop bashing it. Otherwise, you might as well ask me not to smash a cockroach, were I to find one on my kitchen floor.

To him, it is holy. So what.

Look, there's a mainstream religion I have a really low regard for. I won't say which as it may hurt someone's feelings. But if someone came here saying "I'm that and it's holy and I love it and it's good" I wouldn't scream at the person and denigrate his religion.

If he asked me what I thought, I'd politely share my trepidation and concerns, in a candid but civil manner.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Awwww....she looks like my Mom!

Oooooh, I want this book! :

 

[Clarence Rockaway]

To him, it is holy. So what.

Look, there's a mainstream religion I have a really low regard for. I won't say which as it may hurt someone's feelings. But if someone came here saying "I'm that and it's holy and I love it and it's good" I wouldn't scream at the person and denigrate his religion.

If he asked me what I thought, I'd politely share my trepidation and concerns, in a candid but civil manner.

Did this mainstream religion murder six million of your people? You really need to curb this compulsion you have to be the referee in this dispute. It's very unnecessary. You make no headway with me whatsoever. and while your intentions may be good, you are super annoying. I'm going to flatten this satanic bastard, and there's nothing you can do about it. I've got the God of Abraham on my side, and he's got that lying demonic false Messiah on his. Say Kaddish for him.