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The State of Clear

As often as Elron changed his mind avout what "clear" meant, I'm not sure that any of his Scientological vocabulary really meant anything over the long haul, including "theta". You can have any of it mean anything to you that you wish as far as I'm concerned. And you can clay demo any of it all you want and it still may not mean anything at all.
 
In Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, in 1950, Hubbard described Clear:

A clear, for instance, has complete recall of everything which has ever happened to him or anything he has ever studied. He does mental computations, such as those of chess, for example, which a normal would do in a half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds. He does not think “vocally” but spontaneously. There are no demon circuits in his mind except those which it might amuse him to set up -- and break down again -- to care for various approaches to living. He is entirely self-determined. And his creative imagination is high. He can do a swift study of anything within his intellectual capacity, which is inherent, and the study would be the equivalent to him of a year or two of training when he was “normal.” His vigor, persistence and tenacity to life are very much higher than anyone has thought possible.
L. Ron Hubbard
Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health

Given there are 50,000 ( or more ) of these clears among us how come they do stand out as incredible as Hubbard sais they are ?

Longer life. We are our abundance over 100 year old scientologists?

Imagine the help to our court systems to have so many people available with complete and total memory back to being a fetus!

Imagine the drop in medical expense caused by all these people never ever needing any medical attention.

And, wow, the advance in medicine, technology, law and so on added by the mere presence of these "clears".

We can all see the efeects of so many "clears" on the world....right?
 
You know, this Scientology stuff is pretty confusing at times.

I often wonder just how much Hubbard actually achieved or discovered. By that I mean to say that I'm beginning to think that the technical discoveries were rendered by others and Hubbard's contributions were more of an impediment than anything else.

Leon posted once elsewhere that Hubbard was left-hand path and many of the tech developers were right-hand path people.

Perhaps Hubbard discovered little and twisted into malfeasance any workable tech?

In this way it certainly makes Clear and OT stand out with more clarification and understanding for me.

Works like this:

Hubbard makes up the subject of Dianetics and the state of "Clear". There's absolutely no way I believe that some 280+ cases were researched before the book's release with him running around with his cult hottie and orgy sex and such. Therefore, he made it up, IMHO.

This attracts others who actually develop methods that do produce results - this would be the grades, etc. Please note that no Clears are made because the state is a Hubbard bogus fiction.

Hubbard is riding high on the bandwagon and "postulates" the state of OT. Certainly when I read the Otto Roos story and the David Mayo story I get a good idea of Hubbard's "research" methods - he had technically proficient people DO the research!

Once again, this leads to others developing material that does something but, alas, no OT states are achieved as it was made up Hubbard spew to begin with.

Just musing but any thoughts/ideas/comments are welcomed.
 
I wonder if scn might be a kind of ego empowerer that takes say someone who is an arrogent asshole and makes him more so or a goodhearted gentle person and helps them bring that out .Perhaps that is why some OTs are still assholes at the top of the bridge and why there are "OTs " who are still as gay as the day they first picked up the cans.I guess what I'm saying is that as psychology says personality is somewhat fixed and hard to change. Just my opinion for what it is worth
 
Well, Bill, as much as I like you I have to ask, how would you know that? Is it just a matter of semantics? I'm only using the word Clear because that's what the thread is about and that's what the state I achieved was labelled in scientology. I would have been just as happy to have called it The State Of "Ian Hoolihan" (I am who I am).

In that particular session I had the exact "Clear Cognition" as described by Hubbard for Clear (a cognition which, btw, quite amazed me at the time), I had the exact accompanying meter phenomena described (according to what I was later told by an at-the-time baffled Auditor), I had no real interest in running anything other than Flow Zero ("you causing yourself a.. ") from that point onwards and so forth.

It wasn't "exactly as described by Hubbard" in terms of attributes such as those listed in DMSMH. My contention, all along, is that Hubbard didn't know what a "Clear" really looked like at the time of describing it in DMSMH. How could he know what would happen with a newly invented practice once people started to actually apply it? I'm quite sure that it probably surprised the hell outta him. Time and the hard work of many, many others provided much information along the way, things always seem to change in any developing practice.

What I'm trying to communicate with my contributions to this thread is that, whilst I no longer practice scientology and recommend it to no man, it is obvious that it does do some things for some people. Those who claim it does absolutely nothing are mistaken.

I agree.
 
I wonder if scn might be a kind of ego empowerer that takes say someone who is an arrogent asshole and makes him more so or a goodhearted gentle person and helps them bring that out .Perhaps that is why some OTs are still assholes at the top of the bridge and why there are "OTs " who are still as gay as the day they first picked up the cans.I guess what I'm saying is that as psychology says personality is somewhat fixed and hard to change. Just my opinion for what it is worth

There's definitely truth in that. Scientology can only change a person so much. I agreed with Panda Termit's post. Scientology doesn't do nothing, but it also doesn't do everything and has failed in some of it's aims, such as bringing decency to this planet. I found that the more I got my overts off, I was much more able to solve problems and face my responsibilities. I was also able to confront people who I had wronged in the past more easier. The idea of confession isn't new, however. in Judaism you are supposed to confront every person you have wronged in the previous year face to face and apologise and even be willing to do something to make up for misdemeanors. Looking at persons past helps a person to confront their actions, whether it be in this lifetime or other ones. I found Scientology beneficial in that respect and found the state of Clear to be a state which I could feel. It made me feel a great deal more compassion for people and want to actively to do good things. It also made me re-connect with things I love other than Scientology.

If someone claims some level of spiritual enlightenment and behaves like an ass, then something has gone wrong. Where love of other people and life is not present there is no spiritual enlightenment. Being able to stand by without emotion to the suffering of others, sadism etc etc is something else altogether. Don't judge a person by a label they have achieved but by their actions towards others.

I was deeply ashamed when I seen a Scientologist on a youtube video degrading protestors calling them 'McDonalds workers' and another degrade people who give clothes to the homeless in an email. That cold hard thinking is unnecassary and is reminiscent of a person using self centred survivalist techniques.
 
You know, this Scientology stuff is pretty confusing at times.

I often wonder just how much Hubbard actually achieved or discovered. By that I mean to say that I'm beginning to think that the technical discoveries were rendered by others and Hubbard's contributions were more of an impediment than anything else.

Leon posted once elsewhere that Hubbard was left-hand path and many of the tech developers were right-hand path people.

Perhaps Hubbard discovered little and twisted into malfeasance any workable tech?

In this way it certainly makes Clear and OT stand out with more clarification and understanding for me.

Works like this:

Hubbard makes up the subject of Dianetics and the state of "Clear". There's absolutely no way I believe that some 280+ cases were researched before the book's release with him running around with his cult hottie and orgy sex and such. Therefore, he made it up, IMHO.

This attracts others who actually develop methods that do produce results - this would be the grades, etc. Please note that no Clears are made because the state is a Hubbard bogus fiction.

Hubbard is riding high on the bandwagon and "postulates" the state of OT. Certainly when I read the Otto Roos story and the David Mayo story I get a good idea of Hubbard's "research" methods - he had technically proficient people DO the research!

Once again, this leads to others developing material that does something but, alas, no OT states are achieved as it was made up Hubbard spew to begin with.

Just musing but any thoughts/ideas/comments are welcomed.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Not to discredit Hubbard for the work he did do, which was not all bad, but his personality does not align with what it takes to formulate a science of the mind. For those who experienced gains in Scientology it's hard to put this together with a man who was capable of the things we have read about here. This is why so many loyalists refuse to look at the critical material. Hubbard dropped out of many courses, failed to complete university and suffered from wanderlust; a personality not like one that would formulate a science. He claimed to Parsons to be led by the Empress and Parsons described him as being very thelemic. He clearly had one consistent characteristic; a big personality, meshed with various magic and occult principles. Hubbard got the ball rolling and then many others added to the research. There's the old masonic saying 'as above, so below' and I'm sure that was true for Ron who used channelling and drugs to get data from the akashic record. I often wondered how I had such mindblowing gains from some of the OT data when it seemed.... well... like sci-fi garbage! Hubbard clearly described the data he put into his levels through his interpretations as a sci-fi writer, but they have really deep meanings and were possibly not discovered by Hubbard reviewing his own past lives. The geometry in the Clearing Course and OT levels may relate to the 'energy grid' that surrounds the earth and which has previously been described by so many. The Ashmolean museum has rocks, from ancient Greece, I believe which are covered in bands, an attempt by civilizations a long time ago to demonstrate this system of energy. There's the old tale of Ariadne who tries to show the minotaur out of the labyrinth with the golden string. Not con-incidental that Scientology contains so many Greek definitions!

When I see Scientology and what this knowledge is being used to do. It makes me very sad.
 
The attitude of *some* Scientologists regarding money and the poor, was and is a big red flag for me. People who are wealthy are admired and lauded by *some* Scientologists, and the poor are seen as unworthy downstats, undeserving of help. There is a saying my father comes up with from time to time: "The full man doesn't understand the hungry man". Understanding the hungry man takes a little work and reflection that not everyone wants to do. For some, wealth has become an end in itself - a Golden Calf, maybe. I simply do not understand why *some* more fortunate people are unwilling to share some of their wealth with those less fortunate. It's not much to ask really. "Me First" is a sad way to live, but Scientology - as practiced in the Mother Cult, tends to produce that attitude.

Of what value is a 'Clear' or 'OT' who live only for themselves?
 
Seconded!

I'm with Maslow.
Maslows_Hierarchy_of_Needssvg.png
 
The attitude of *some* Scientologists regarding money and the poor, was and is a big red flag for me. People who are wealthy are admired and lauded by *some* Scientologists, and the poor are seen as unworthy downstats, undeserving of help. There is a saying my father comes up with from time to time: "The full man doesn't understand the hungry man". Understanding the hungry man takes a little work and reflection that not everyone wants to do. For some, wealth has become an end in itself - a Golden Calf, maybe. I simply do not understand why *some* more fortunate people are unwilling to share some of their wealth with those less fortunate. It's not much to ask really. "Me First" is a sad way to live, but Scientology - as practiced in the Mother Cult, tends to produce that attitude.

Of what value is a 'Clear' or 'OT' who live only for themselves?

Well the poor don't have bank accounts to raid, and that is it in its entirity. Scn ofcourse likes rich people. It would have gone no where without them. I think there is a difference between people who became rich due to their own ingenuity rather than having it given to them. Didn't Shakespeare have something to say about that? "He of the lean and hungry look."

I don't like the super rich who preach to us, like Hollywood stars or Warren Buffett saying "stop coddling the rich." Right this moment he is locked in a titanic struggle with the IRS over a $1 Billion tax bill. IF he were so self-righteous he would just pay it and not say a damned thing.

On a much smaller scale (ofcourse) I have helped many people in financial trouble. But I never shout about it. And I do not demand others do the same. It is in your heart, not your pocketbook.
 
... I think there is a difference between people who became rich due to their own ingenuity rather than having it given to them. Didn't Shakespeare have something to say about that? "He of the lean and hungry look."

No, the quote is in reference to men of ambition, who often behave as vicious predators of others in pursuit of their own private interests. The gentleman in fact referred to in the line was himself a wealthy and important member of Roman Republican society. In the play the reference is a foreshadowing of what is to transpire.


... I don't like the super rich who preach to us, like Hollywood stars or Warren Buffett saying "stop coddling the rich." Right this moment he is locked in a titanic struggle with the IRS over a $1 Billion tax bill. IF he were so self-righteous he would just pay it and not say a damned thing. ...

:eyeroll:

Because it is neither his tax bill, his tax dispute, nor his money. :biggrin:

The tax dispute is Berkshire Hathway, Inc.'s. BHI is a publicly traded company. Buffet is an officer of that company. He has a legal & fiduciary obligation to the company and its shareholders. The reason it is a dispute is that there is a disagreement as to whether the monies are actually owed to the government according to the tax code. For Buffet to simply authorize payment without first exhausting other alternatives would set himself up legally for violation of his fiduciary obligations to the stockholders of the company.

That is the sort of thing that comes of overly permissive laws relating to corporations. Corporations and there officers often are in a position where non-compliance with governing bodies becomes both economically profitable and legally defensible.

To say the least, your mischaracterization of Buffet's involvement is a public slander and you owe the man an apology.


Mark A. Baker
 
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Seconded!

I'm with Maslow.
Maslows_Hierarchy_of_Needssvg.png

I'm not for the simple reason that Maslow's thesis implies an hierarchy of moral actions. The upper segments of the pyramid are not deemed relevant unless the lower segments have been stabilized.

I prefer Plato's approach. Ethics are universally applicable.


Mark A. Baker
 
No, the quote is in reference to men of ambition, who often behave as vicious predators of others in pursuit of their own private interests. The gentleman in fact referred to in the line was himself a wealthy and important member of Roman Republican society. In the play the reference is a foreshadowing of what is to transpire.




:eyeroll:

Because it is neither his tax bill, his tax dispute, nor his money. :biggrin:

The tax dispute is Berkshire Hathway, Inc.'s. BHI is a publicly traded company. Buffet is an officer of that company. He has a legal & fiduciary obligation to the company and its shareholders. The reason it is a dispute is that there is a disagreement as to whether the monies are actually owed to the government according to the tax code. For Buffet to simply authorize payment without first exhausting other alternatives would set himself up legally for violation of his fiduciary obligations to the stockholders of the company.

That is the sort of thing that comes of overly permissive laws relating to corporations. Corporations and there officers often are in a position where non-compliance with governing bodies becomes both economically profitable and legally defensible.

To say the least, your mischaracterization of Buffet's involvement is a public slander and you owe the man an apology.


Mark A. Baker

I spoke too soon. There is nothing preventing the uber rich Warren Buffett from taking out his fat checkbook and writing a check to the IRS for a billion dollahs. The shareholders would love him and on top of that he would be true to his freaking word.

I also detest Bill Gates merrily giving away his fortune to buy his place in heaven. Heaven does not care. Why doesn't he give the IRS some more money because his buddy Warren says he is coddled too much. The IRS will take donations. There actually is a deficit reduction fund. Anyone can contribute.

I am not against the uber rich. But for them to preach to us is unforgivable. YOU first, rich guys. Like I said in my post, it is in your heart whether you give. NOT up to any one else.
 
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Some people just can't stand to be corrected when they get their facts wrong. :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker :melodramatic:
p.s. You still owe Buffett an apology
Mark, what makes you so much smarter than
Warren Buffet? Are you richer than him? I don't know that he has is facts wrong at all.
 
I'm not for the simple reason that Maslow's thesis implies an hierarchy of moral actions. The upper segments of the pyramid are not deemed relevant unless the lower segments have been stabilized.

I prefer Plato's approach. Ethics are universally applicable.


Mark A. Baker
I find it fits my needs, LOL. With all "segments" in place as a stable foundation, it works for me and those around me. YMMV.
 
Thank you for explaining what I mean in a post. I'm sure I would have absolutely no idea of what I had written without you to clarify the matter for me. Still, in turn I would suggest that you learn to read what is actually written with a minimum of added interpretation from your own internal filters. :)

Flunk for dub-in.


Mark A. Baker


Scientology 101: when faced with undeniable facts and/or irrefutable logic, apply ad homs.

Tisk, tisk.
 
. . . Since then, the definition of "Clear" had been watered down and watered down. It changes all the time. Even in this thread, I've noted at least a dozen redefinitions of Clear . . .

/derail

Can I just check something with you?

Given that there is no agreement as to what "Clear" is, Scientology's axiomatic logic would thus conclude that there is no "Reality" about "Clear". At all.
 
I find it fits my needs, LOL. With all "segments" in place as a stable foundation, it works for me and those around me. YMMV.


If those "segments" comply, and life complies, for the consumer, any old system will do. Whether or not the segments comply, or life complies, is sometimes a matter of how much belief there is in the system, and if that is only based on fitting needs, so what? It only says it makes you comfy and doesn't say anything about the
the value of the system beyond your individual comfort - even it you include those around you in your assessment.

Scientology works for many. It fits their needs. From the elitists at the top to the slaves on the RPF.
 
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