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The State of Clear

Not all scientologists did or do that, Bill. Surely you know that?
I agree. And I didn't say "all".

However, I don't know any Scientologists, who still believe, who have mentioned one word about how Clears and OTs don't demonstrate the expected and promised characteristics.

I'm sure some are aware, but they don't mention it in Scientology company. The other Scientologists are all pretending that "Clears" are really Clear and "OTs" are really OT.
 
Perhaps it's been a while since you were at Flag. Let me assure you that the current Tech regime is much more interested in finding Solo NOTs Auditors to be unClear than they are in verifying any States achieved pre-GAT. It's a recycling kinda thing. Their very existence actually depends on re-delivering and then re-re-delivering all aspects of scientology. :biggrin:

It is really amazing. It would be bad enough if the Church of Scientology extracted large amounts of money from each member just once, and then stopped. But they don't. They sell the Church members something once, and then sell it to them AGAIN, AGAIN and even AGAIN!

Hubbard was brilliant. He didn't simply figure out how to sell a truckload load of worthless crap to quite a few people. He figured out to sell truckload after truckload after truckload. Most people walk away from rip-offs and scams, or products that fail to meet some minimal levels of quality and legitimacy. But Hubbard managed to devise a system that keeps "updating and fixing", surpizingly, what was described to be "perfect, on-souce, complete and beyond error" at MANY various times over Scientology's earlier history.

And, some segment of the population remains captivated and immersed in accepting and believing EVERY new proclamation of "betterment" and "improvement", where it was also described as "100% Perfect LRH Source Materials" BEFORE the "necessary changes".

For the life of me I don't understand how certain people can keep buying the BS. I mean, I don't understand outside of threats of disconnection with family and friends, negative effects on business due to disconnection, or potential (PC folder) blackmail, WHY any person would CHOOSE to stay involved with the constant lunacy. :confused2: :duh:
 
Admittedly, that is an Ability Attained that I do not have...

To post badly mistaken information, then confidently state that it is 'no big deal at all'--and without missing a beat, re-assert the mistake by claiming 'I stand by what I wrote."

Kinda reminds me of the Auditor's Code...




AUDITOR
I'd like to indicate that the past
100 hours were an overrun.

PC
So because of your out tech, you
overran me and it cost me $50,000.
Now what?

AUDITOR
It's no big deal at all.
I stand by what I ran.

PC
Wuttt? Aren't you going to explain it
or apologize or correct your mistake?

AUDITOR
No, that would be an Auditor's Code break
and not good for your case.
I'm here for you.
​


Tough shits Hoaxy. So you are more trained than I thought you were. SO OK. You certainly ewrite and argue like an untrained dweet. And everything I have said and written about here on the subject of Clear - Yep, I very definitely do stand by it. Just too bad if you don't like it.
 
It is really amazing. <...snip for brevity>
For the life of me I don't understand how certain people can keep buying the BS. I mean, I don't understand outside of threats of disconnection with family and friends, negative effects on business due to disconnection, or potential (PC folder) blackmail, WHY any person would CHOOSE to stay involved with the constant lunacy. :confused2: :duh:
There is one possible explanation other than the ones you list, of course. As unbelievable as it might sound to many posting here, perhaps they are actually getting something out of it. Something they somehow think is worth their time and money.

To me, this idea makes more sense than the idea that anyone would spend decades of their life and shitloads of money for absolutely nothing. I can understand SO/Staff saying they got little or nothing out of it, especially if they did little or no Training and Auditing but I can't really understand a Public person spending all that time and money and getting nothing but promises in return. It just sounds too silly for words.

What do you think?

(Channeling Non-specific Origination: "It is too silly for words!")
 
I'm trying to load a new picture for Troublebaby but so far have only managed to delete the old one. I'll keep trying.
 
Tough shits Hoaxy. So you are more trained than I thought you were. SO OK. You certainly ewrite and argue like an untrained dweet. And everything I have said and written about here on the subject of Clear - Yep, I very definitely do stand by it. Just too bad if you don't like it.

Yes, you do "stand by it".

I have no doubt "You Stand Tall".

I was going to include the music video link...but I think you know the words.

Catchy tune, isn't it?
 
There is one possible explanation other than the ones you list, of course. As unbelievable as it might sound to many posting here, perhaps they are actually getting something out of it. Something they somehow think is worth their time and money.

To me, this idea makes more sense than the idea that anyone would spend decades of their life and shitloads of money for absolutely nothing. I can understand SO/Staff saying they got little or nothing out of it, especially if they did little or no Training and Auditing but I can't really understand a Public person spending all that time and money and getting nothing but promises in return. It just sounds too silly for words.

What do you think?

(Channeling Non-specific Origination: "It is too silly for words!")

You asked, and here is what I "think".

I didn't say that they didn't get anything out of the training and auditing. I know many did, and I also did. I enjoyed the auditing and some aspects of the training, VERY much so.

I meant, how and why would anyone choose to stay around with all the obvious lunacy and insanity surrounding one? I won't get into the many details of that insanity here as I have described this in many ways before. Simply, I found it too restrictive to have to mold myself to the cookie-cutter pattern Hubbard's Scientology demanded.

But, to provide a few examples, I noticed quite early while involved in Scientology that management constantly lied, exaggerated and misled the public and staff. That is partially why I avoided events (even while on staff). I couldn't stand the OBVIOUS PR and bullshit.

I also noticed how Scientology functioned to install the fixed ideas that I learned about while doing study courses. I saw how many Scientologists became unable to learn anything that contradicted Hubbard or the Church party-line.

I saw how Scientology functioned as "mind control", even if it wasn't totally intentional (now, I suspect that it was).

I saw how sometimes innocent people were jokingly presented with "justice" in "kangaroo courts" (Comm Evs), and how they were declared and disconnected from friends and family.

I saw how Scientology had a comfortable but nasty tendency to "waste people" (staff and public).

I saw the endless pressure, force and demand as NOT a good thing.

I NEVER really liked the "group" aspect of Scientology. It seemed an almost "added inapplicable datum", a tacked on something that ONLY acted to reduce any of the value that the auditing and "tech" training might have had. The whole KSW, "free the universe" vibe was so ADDED-ON and largely unwanted and unnecessary to me. The ONLY thing that ever interested me was the "subject of personal growth and expansion", which was only a PART of the whole subject of Scientology. The part of it that dealt with "expanding Scientology" seemed to create so MANY "bad effects", and THAT was far too much of what involvement with Scientology entails - caring about and contributing to the stupid Scientology GROUP.

I didn't walk away because of ANY "bad results" with auditing. I walked away primarily because the organization was insane, and it was quite insane right from the beginning when I first got involved in 1976. I didn't understand at first that it was insane BECAUSE of Hubbard, because Hubbard wrote the policies and advices, that when followed RESULT in the lunacy.

Oh, and also I was confronted with an endless stream of contradictions of Scn theory versus practice. It was later that I came to notice that there were many contradictions in the Scn theory itself.

I will add that I did the majority of my lower bridge (over 400 hours) up through the expanded grades at very cheap sliding scale discounts. I also got the additional 5 or 10% discount for "advanced payments". So, I think my auditing was getting debited at about $375 per intensive! I was NOT at all upset about what I was getting for my money THEN, and to this day I feel that I got WAY MORE than what I paid. But, I did NOT sign up for all of the endless bullshit that comes along with membership in THAT organization! No matter how cheap the auditing might have been.

And I did up through OT III for less than 10K. OT I was pretty useless, and a let-down for me. It was like a "locational".

I did LOVE the EP of OT II, because as I came to learn later, it happened JUST as described with layer upon layer of "charge" peeling-off, I line-charged for 10 minutes at the end, and really, it seemed that the LFBD and floating TA would just keeping getting BIGGER. It was very dramatic, and I had NEVER before experienced the intensity or depth of continual charge blowing off as happened at the end of the OT II level. It was fairly boring until the end - then WHOOSH!!!!!!! I was so amazed that I ran out of the room and went to the examiner. I left ALL of my materials OPEN in plain view, and it was a bit of a downer to immediately be assigned TREASON for "violating security of confidential materials". It did act to kill the "win". Oh well, such is Scientology.

While I was "wow" about OT III at first when contacting the "data", I didn't find the auditing that needed or wanted. I could imagine though, IF SPIRITS ARE REAL, that thetans could conceive themselves st "stuck together". But, it just never really "indicated" for me as a needed auditing action.

I did do 50 hours of FPRD at Flag in the early 1990s, and THAT wasn't so cheap, and I suppose if I had THAT to do all over, I would pass. I did get "keyed out" quite a bit, BUT I noticed ZERO change in any areas of my life. :confused2:

It was as if I had reached a point of diminishing returns with my auditing. The majority of the change and value was EARLY ON, and as time went on, there was LESS and LESS change. I mean, I had experienced near complete separation from my body and mind, and I had "been there with nothing else MANY times", so it was like, WHY BOTHER?

But, what I REALLY LEARNED was how crazy many people can become by adopting and thinking with a crazy belief system. I saw FIXED IDEAS work in close proximity to Scn staff and public. I saw how "considerations" (agreeing with various of Hubbard's statements) can act to limit and define perceptions by my own watching of various aspects of Scientology staff and public in action.

So, I doubt many people walk away because of auditing or training. They walk away because of the OTHER bullshit that is foisted upon them in the process of "being a Scientologist". For me, it was almost too much right from the start. And, it WAS NOT hidden, and to me it WAS OBVIOUS.

There is/was too much lunacy in the vicinity of the Church of Scientology, too much of the time, to make staying for the auditing and training even slightly tolerable. :omg:
 
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Oh, and BTW, if Hubbard's Tech was capable of producing anything other than reality challenged, delusional Scientologists, no one would even know who Miscavige is because it wouldn't have been so easily hijacked by someone like Miscavige,

but because Hubbard's Tech produces nothing but reality challenged, delusional Scientologists, all it took was a little bullying for a nobody like Miscavige to take it over ... every aspect of it.

Even a nobody like Marty Rathbun can build a cult of reality challenged, delusional Scientologists with Hubbard's Tech, because that is all it's good for and all it's ever been good for.

Scientology from day one has never produced anything other than Scientologists.
Since D. Miscarriage took the helm, I don't trust anything the Church of Gynecology has to say...
 
I was 'in' for two years thirty years ago. In that time I completed the lower bridge. It was an overwhelmingly positive experience up until very near the end. I left at the point that it became clear that 'always deliver what was promised' was no longer a viable possibility within the church, if it ever had been. Up to that time I had no significant personal complaints.

Financial costs at the time were significantly higher than ideal, but not completely out of line as is the case since. Non-financial costs, apart from loss of contact with those friends who remained 'in' and who chose to disconnect, were inconsequential. Those who chose disconnection are entitled to their decisions. No family involved.

Subsequent involvement has been with independent scientologists and others since 1982. All in all for me personally a very positive experience far exceeding any considerations of 'cost'.

As with Carmelo Orchards, I left when it no longer made sense to remain.


Mark A. Baker
Yes, a virtual "Ditto" for me, same time frame too, oddly enough. And I left before I ever heard of David Miscarriage. Things had deteriorated so severely that it spawned an environment where such a creature could actually take over.
 
LOL! "diagnosed as natural clear". That sort of captures the flavor of the times.

Had you stuck it out, you could have also had the epiphany of realizing your own responsibility for your BT's. And then been cause over life.

There is nothing in life that one is not at least partially responsible for in some way, nor that can't be dealt with from your own resources.
Oh but I did stick around long enough to be "responsible for my bt's". In that respect I realized that if I was clean and NOT STICKY, the BT's couldn't stick to me and would be easily blown out by high toned beingness. The organization of SCN was making me sticky. The BT's seemed to all go away when I realized all of this and then, as a result, I no longer found myself immersed in strange thoughts and compulsions. Why should I one at a time them, when they'll all blow out if my beingness becomes too pure for them to adhere and stay stuck in my space. This proved a much more workable theory than believing I had to lower my frequency and spend many hours a day talking with them and hoping they'd, then go away as, you know, they don't have to if they don't want to. Especially once you empower them. The empowerment of underworld beings could be said to be the actual purpose of Elron. This realization came to me after running them out, one at a time on the OT3 processes. I felt some heavy charges blow and then, when I realized the above, the phenomenon ceased to exist for me. Perhaps I'd ceased "mocking it up."
 
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Yes, a virtual "Ditto" for me, same time frame too, oddly enough. And I left before I ever heard of David Miscarriage. Things had deteriorated so severely that it spawned an environment where such a creature could actually take over.

I got in about 1976. Things were NUTS then. Following LRH policy on how to run the Scientology organization directly results in CRAZINESS. It never "deteriorated". If anything, as time went on throughout the late 1970s and early 1980s, Hubbard actually got Scientology policy on "how to run an organization" BETTER implememted. It surely DID "deteriorate" from the view of many staff and public, but THAT "deterioration" was BECAUSE Hubbard got into even more CONTROL of the Scientology organization, streamlined management, and brought the actual management of Scientology closer to his own visons and ideals.

The setup of Scientology, based on exact LRH policies and directives, ENCOURAGES a person like Miscavige to take the helm. The leader SHOULD and MUST be a tyrant, just as was Hubbard.

What you call "deterioration" was actually "evolution" of Scientology management in DIRECT ALIGNMENT with Hubbard's aims, policies, directives and visions. There is no doubt that many of us saw a real increase in insanity, craziness, oppression and strange behavior in Scientology throughout the mid 1970s through the early 1980s. But, it was BECAUSE OF HUBBARD, and NOT "despite Hubbard".
 
I got in about 1976. Things were NUTS then. Following LRH policy on how to run the Scientology organization directly results in CRAZINESS. It never "deteriorated". If anything, as time went on throughout the late 1970s and early 1980s, Hubbard actually got Scientology policy on "how to run an organization" BETTER implememted. It surely DID "deteriorate" from the view of many staff and public, but THAT "deterioration" was BECAUSE Hubbard got into even more CONTROL of the Scientology organization, streamlined management, and brought the actual management of Scientology closer to his own visons and ideals.

The setup of Scientology, based on exact LRH policies and directives, ENCOURAGES a person like Miscavige to take the helm. The leader SHOULD and MUST be a tyrant, just as was Hubbard.

What you call "deterioration" was actually "evolution" of Scientology management in DIRECT ALIGNMENT with Hubbard's aims, policies, directives and visions.
Yes, this is a big reason I post here is that people like you help me clarify my perspective. Yes, I agree, it wasn't the deterioration of clean intentions on the part of Hubbard that occurred. It was his evil intentions that came into fruition, nice call....
 
Re: The Insanity of Clear

I've come to a new conclusion about the scientology ( and quasi-scientogy ) state of "clear" which is : anybody who still claims to be "clear" is batshit crazy.

Next question please.
 
Yes, this is a big reason I post here is that people like you help me clarify my perspective. Yes, I agree, it wasn't the deterioration of clean intentions on the part of Hubbard that occurred. It was his evil intentions that came into fruition, nice call....

Glad to hear it.

You said in an earlier post:

"Since D. Miscarriage took the helm, I don't trust anything the Church of Gynecology has to say... "

Again, the MAIN thing that Miscavige did was forcefully implement Hubbard's management plan and design. Scientology cannot be trusted because it enforces HUBBARD'S EXACT DIRECTIONS about how to run the Scientology organization, and in many ways Miscavige DOES THAT VERY WELL.

Yes, Miscavige has brought his own weird personality and flaws to the table, and he has "altered" some aspects of Scientology, but as far as the BIG PICTURE is concerned, the reason the Church of Scientology sucks has MUCH MORE to do with "Hubbard's exact directions on how to expand Scientology" than on how Miscavige may be "messing things up".
 
Re: The Insanity of Clear

I am CLEAR . . . . .



of Scientology!!!!!! :yes: :yes: :happydance: :biggrin: :omg: :omg: :clap: :coolwink:

Me, too, now if I could just get these scientolgists and quasi-scientologists to stop clinging around trying to leech enough energy to feed their batshit crazy impluses with have drained them almost entirely.
 
OK, now I'm trying to buy some of this. But let me ask you about this woman that seems key to your new self perspective after "going clear". Since she was of Scientological stock, was she impressed with your new title of "clear" or would she have been equally so impressed as an outsider without regard to the status you suddenly had as a "clear" had she been disassociated from all Scientological PR?

To put this reply in perspective, she was an example of the changes wrought in my being Clear.

Specifically, my entire outlook was enlarged. It was still me, just more attention, action, interest.

In my senior year of high school, I got involved with Scientology. I was pretty much a geek and a gear head. I was a farm boy, who read books and dropped acid. I would have rather been working on an engine than sitting in school, and that is pretty much what I did. But I wasn't what I became after going Clear.

Clear really extroverted me.

Before Clear, i slept a normal 8 hrs or so. After Clear for the first several months, I was sleeping 3 hours a night and not at all on the week ends. I would course sup in Menlo Park from 10-10 daily, and on week ends, I'd drive to LA and play fast and loose with my friends.

Before Clear, I wasn't very sports minded. I did long distance running, a little surfing and bellyboarding, and that was about it. After Clear, the next winter (5 months later), On my first day on skis, I went from the bunny slope to showing a girl, who I met, on an intermediate slope, how to do something. This was around noon of that day. My friend, David Longinotti, who I was staying with at Bear Valley, gave me some lessons for a half hour or so at 8 AM, and when he came back to see how I was doing, it was about lunch time. No formal instruction. Rossignol skis over 200 cm - long skis, not the shorties we use now.

I had been interested in the **idea** of scuba diving since I was a kid. I never did anything. Before the year was out, after going Clear, I had a scuba cert.

Four years after Clear, I saw the Eiger Sanction starring Clint Eastwood on a Sunday, and the next day (Monday), I was learning to climb up at Castle Rock.

Forty years later, I still rock climb, go scuba diving, and skiing. And my family goes with me. When my son, now 41, was 12, I took him, along with a high school class up 2,500 feet (The Two Sisters) in Yosemite. Within the last month, he borrowed my ropes, carabiners, chalks, pitons, etc. and took his kid climbing.

Our youngest daughter has an instructor cert in scuba. Was I an influence? I think so. We have a movie of ourselves, when she was a young teen ager, petting a moray eel about 90 feet below the surface off Oahu. We have memories of hundreds of dolphins playing in the water between Lahaina and Lanai, where we were scuba diving.

The same daughter has impressed boy friends by keeping up with them, on an equal footing, on surfboards off Malibu, and on skis and snowboards off the trail in more snowy venues.

Our son (who was rock climbing with me), skis backwards off Double Black Diamond cornices, while taking movies of his wife, kids, and sister coming off the same cornice. I was the person, who took his son, then age 6, off "his" first cornice.

Now back to your question about my girl friend from after going Clear. She was 46, and *good looking**. I was 20. We were both neophytes, in our social group at the Santa Clara, then Menlo Park (later Palo Alto) center. We were surrounded by Class Vllls and VIs. (as an example: Mimi Spickler at age 14 was a Class VI, and at age 16, was a Class VIII).

We were Clear, and that was it. No special status. The clients or public consisted of business, educational, sports, and research stars and future stars. I sold Matt Feshbach his first Scien book. John Brodie, who had a Heisman Trophy, was voted Most Valuable Player in the NFL. Ed Marinaro had a Heisman Trophy. Mervin Morris had a huge chain of department stores (Mervyn's). Hal Puthoff was the link between the Soviet Union and the United States on small particle physics and also was a lead researcher at SRI on Remote Viewing. Ed Mitchell had walked on the Moon. The list goes on.

In the grand scheme of things, in that location, in that time, we were on the bottom most rung of the chicken coop.

What we had, between us, was pheromones. .... shooting everywhere between us.

We created our reality.

There was a day, when we agreed to meet at 11 AM, at the menlo Park center, where we both arrived from separate points on the map, long before cell phones, at 1 PM within 5 minutes of each other.

We synched. That is the long and short of it.

There was a two week period, where we only got out of bed to eat, shop for groceries, or go to the bathroom.

At one point we had an upset. Pretty big. Don't remember what. Phil Spickler took her into session. He asked how I was in bed. She said, "The BEST!" end of session, end of upset. This is literally true down to the exact words.

Parenthetically, she was also, "The BEST!"

My experience has been that Clears are better in bed than non clears. There is more freedom, more energy exchanged, more passion, more fun.

I am not talking "natural clears," "dianetic clears,""Clear OTs" etc. I'm talking about the group of people, who did a lot of auditing , then power, then grade 6, then the Clearing Course. You can call that state anything. We called it "Clear" because that was the name on the branding iron. BFD. The state, is delicious. Doesn't matter what you name it.

It has been good for me for forty years. It has been good for my family. The dominoes that initially fell, are still falling.
 
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