New SP Times article: Former Scientology insiders describe a world of coercion

[Dulloldfart]

Was that the real David Mayo that was posting on here? I thought there was some suspicion as to that really being him. I thought maybe someone was just using his name as their moniker and that it was not the real Mayo.

It was him. No doubt.

Paul

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Yep. Heard about this. I know some of those who were interviewed. Very cool!

 

[Purple Rain]

Well we were members of a fanatical, exploitive, abusive cult bent on dominating the world and eradicating its enemies all in the name of advancing the Hubbard Agenda. What would you compare that to - the Girl Guides?

The children who were born into it and grew up in it - well yeah, I would totally agree that they deserve a respectful and warm welcome and handling.

But those of us who joined? those of us who joined the SO? Why would there be some need to be kid gloves? Why not just start telling the truth?

No, but I'm not about to invoke Godwin's law either.

Go and watch Schindler's List again if you think there's ANY comparison, because I frankly think that's insulting to the millions of Jews who were murdered and tortured.

Compare the Scientology organisation to the mafia, maybe, or compare Hy's role to a conman, but Nazis? Please. There is no comparison. Who would rather go to Auschwitz than Boston org? Or Sydney? Or wherever.

If you want to indulge in over the top melodramatic Nazi analogies, be my guest. I think it's ridiculous, and as I say insulting to the absolute abject suffering of those people.

 

[Veda]

David Mayo was attacked here? On ESMB? :

-snip-

No, he wasn't "attacked." Initially, there was some surprise that David Mayo was posting, and some had doubt it was authentic. That doubt was temporary and, ultimately, he was warmly received.

 

[Gadfly]

No, he wasn't "attacked." Initially, there was some surprise that David Mayo was posting, and some had doubt it was authentic. That doubt was temporary and, ultimately, he was was warmly received.

Yeah, that is also how I remember it all happened.

I have no idea what Purple Rain was talking about - or what delusion he/she might have been entertaining.

 

[TheSneakster]

Was that the real David Mayo that was posting on here? I thought there was some suspicion as to that really being him. I thought maybe someone was just using his name as their moniker and that it was not the real Mayo.

It was him. No doubt.

And due to his Settlement terms with the Co$, he flat refused to comment upon the Co$; neither did he provide any enlightenment as to his time in Co$ or David Miscavige's & Pat Broeker's scheme to take over control of Co$ from Ron Hubbard while he was still alive.

 

[Gadfly]

No, but I'm not about to invoke Godwin's law either.

Go and watch Schindler's List again if you think there's ANY comparison, because I frankly think that's insulting to the millions of Jews who were murdered and tortured.

Compare the Scientology organisation to the mafia, maybe, or compare Hy's role to a conman, but Nazis? Please. There is no comparison. Who would rather go to Auschwitz than Boston org? Or Sydney? Or wherever.

If you want to indulge in over the top melodramatic Nazi analogies, be my guest. I think it's ridiculous, and as I say insulting to the absolute abject suffering of those people.

Yap - yap - yap. This sounds like "spin" to me. It sounds like a "handling" to try to minimize the true nastiness, deceit, criminality, lying, pressure, force and harm that is constantly perpetrated by the Church of Scientology in the "name" of ludicrous and imaginary lofty goals and purposes.

It was an ANALOGY, not a statement of equality in all regards.

If you don't like how Scientology can be so easily compared to Nazis, Muslim fanatics or Inquisition priests, then please provide some OTHER examples of a) similar delusional groups that b) commit continual HARM to others c) in the name of their unique "beliefs", "ideals", "purported lofty goals" and/or "visions for the future". Those points shown in "a", "b", and "c" exist in Scientology and they are not unique to Scientology. You are free to make other comparisons involving THOSE points.

I am waiting . . . .

I am waiting . . . .

I am waiting . . . .

 

[Purple Rain]

Yeah, that is also how I remember it all happened.

I have no idea what Purple Rain was talking about - or what delusion he/she might have been entertaining.

Well, once again, my bad. He obviously feels right at home.

 

[Gadfly]

Well, once again, my bad. He obviously feels right at home.

As I understood David Mayo, he CANNOT "freely discuss" much of anything about Scientology as it would violate his "agreement" with the Church. Doing so would open the door to MORE legal attacks, something that I am quite sure he was happy to leave in the past. They shut him up using standard GO/OSA "tech". THAT "tech" often "does work". :confused2:

THAT is WHY he can't "feel at home" here. It is not and was not because the people of ESMB "drove him away". Your attempt at subtle misrepresentation did not pass by unnoticed.

And possibly I am guilty of reading more into your two sentences than is there.

 

[Purple Rain]

Yap - yap - yap. This sounds like "spin" to me. It sounds like a "handling" to try to minimize the true nastiness, deceit, criminality, lying, pressure, force and harm that is constantly perpetrated by the Church of Scientology in the "name" of ludicrous and imaginary lofty goals and purposes.

It was an ANALOGY, not a statement of equality in all regards.

If you don't like how Scientology can be so easily compared to Nazis, Muslim fanatics or Inquisition priests, then please provide some OTHER examples of a) similar delusional groups that b) commit continual HARM to others c) in the name of their unique "beliefs", "ideals", "purported lofty goals" and/or "visions for the future". Those points shown in "a", "b", and "c" exist in Scientology and they are not unique to Scientology. You are free to make other comparisons involving THOSE points.

I am waiting . . . .

I am waiting . . . .

I am waiting . . . .

1) Exclusive Brethren
2) Shepherd's Heart
3) Brisbane Christian Fellowship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LLRHuVv1xO4

You obviously need to spend more time with cultic abuse victims from other cults.

 

[Gadfly]

1) Exclusive Brethren
2) Shepherd's Heart
3) Brisbane Christian Fellowship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LLRHuVv1xO4

You obviously need to spend more time with cultic abuse victims from other cults.

And, I suspect that they are ALL similar to Nazis, Muslim extremists and Inquisition priests in exactly the ways I previousy mentioned. Yes? No?

You are right about one thing. I haven't spent much time studying up on "other" cultic abuse victims. I suppose that my attitude is, "seen one, seen them all". I can't imagine that they differ that much from the key aspects that makes Scientology so "cultish". I could be wrong.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Thanks for that. I wasn't going to post this until I saw your candid take on it. It made me change my mind. . .

I like Hy too.

But, joining Hubbard's cult inevitably makes fine people into liars, manipulators and con men--just like Hubbard. How could it be otherwise?

One doesn't join a cult or terrorist activity and last long without adopting their methods and justifications.

Hy became a liar and a manipulator. He did it in a skilled, oft-times charming and always aggressive way. But he became part of Hubbard's con game, despite being such a likable fellow. How do I know this? Because of of my personal experience with him.

When he very seriously warned me that: "If you don't buy this next auditing right now, you are not going to make it," he was doing everything in his power to scare the living daylights out of me and bully me into obeying his demands. It was despicable then and it is despicable now. But I really do understand how he became a terrorist.

Perhaps if I had been a true believer, I would have made that final leap into the abyss--surrendering what vestiges of authorship over my own life remained. I really believe that moments like this are pivotal and if one makes the wrong choice, one can easily have ended up like Lisa McPherson. Perhaps, not physically dead, but certainly mentally and spiritually dead. And this includes the death of ones own life and dreams.

I just floated away from Scientology at that point, bit by bit. It concerned me at first that I was "not going to make it". Nobody likes a death sentence hanging over them. Nobody likes to hear that they are dying. Scientology and Scientologists smile when they make such morbid pronouncements to you, thinking it is no big deal.

Scientologists working in an org assume control of your life just like it is some casual video game that they are playing and if they don't "win" with you, they just push "play again" with another person.

There is no personal connection other than money. You give money you are a hero. You don't give money--you die! It's Hubbard's rules and when Hy was on Hubbard's team he played by those rules.

At that time it was crystal clear that "you are not going to make it" was a technical and personal evaluation that I was NOT GOING TO LIVE without paying money. It also meant that I would suffer endless eternities for not having paid money.

The point is that Scientologists will do virtually ANYTHING to "get their product".

I still like Hy. I haven't seen him since that moment a couple decades ago. It was also the last time I saw any reg or did any Scientology.

I guess I did make it, Hy.

Did you make it, Hy?

Maybe you made it half-way, having blown the CoS and hanging out at the oasis watering hole known as Indie Scientology.

Keep going buddy, that feeling of freedom and elation you felt when you left the Sea Org is great, but there's much more where that came from when you leave Hubbard's Scientology cult. So keep working on that Routing Out Form, Hy baby.

Do I think you owe me a personal apology? Hell no! I understand you were simply an actor reading the lines of your script as they were written. You don't owe me anything. But you owe it to yourself to keep reading and learning about the true nature, practices & history of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. The facts are out there--just awaiting your discovery.

Finally, Hy, I have untold admiration for your having stepped up and told the truth about Scientology's "money machine". It is whistle-blowing extraordinaire. Thanks so much for putting your wonderful intelligence and communication skills to such great use!

WOW!!!

Helluva post, Helluva!!! H-E-L-LU-V-A P-O-S-T, Amigo!!!

I wish you well on your path as well, Hy.

Face

 

[Purple Rain]

And, I suspect that they are ALL similar to Nazis, Muslim extremists and Inquisition priests in exactly the ways I previousy mentioned. Yes? No?

You are right about one thing. I haven't spent much time studying up on "other" cultic abuse victims. I suppose that my attitude is, "seen one, seen them all". I can't imagine that they differ that much from the key aspects that makes Scientology so "cultish". I could be wrong.

Only very broadly in "the end justifies the means".

Apart from that the biggest similarity is breaking up of families, degradation and post-traumatic stress.

The Exclusive Brethren are very meddlesome politically. They were the only cult with a lawyer in attendance at the CIFS conference. The main speaker could not speak, as they offered him one hour to see the sons he hadn't seen since they were young, the wives he's never met, and the grandchild he didn't know he had. One hour together. And he felt like rubbish for letting the conference down. But he did the right thing to put family first - the opposite of what the brethren would have done.

But I have seen "the end justifies the means" used here in relation to censorship also. So I don't think that is limited to cults.

With Scientology you can point to a handful of bodies. And that is tragic. But it is nothing like the scale of even the mafia, let alone Nazi Germany. Not to say that they wouldn't do it if they could. My point is that in this time and place there is no honest comparison. I wouldn't even choose mafia involvement over Scientology involvement. That's not lauding Scientology, it's just saying that people compare anything to the Nazis, when it's just not like that at all. You really want to be talking about something that fits the definition of genocide if you're invoking genocide. And for that matter, if the Exclusive Brethren could get away with it they might well do it, too. At the moment they're just creepy and evil. They do bankroll politicians, though, even up to the level of prime minister here.

 

[MrNobody]

Yap - yap - yap. This sounds like "spin" to me. It sounds like a "handling" to try to minimize the true nastiness, deceit, criminality, lying, pressure, force and harm that is constantly perpetrated by the Church of Scientology in the "name" of ludicrous and imaginary lofty goals and purposes.

It was an ANALOGY, not a statement of equality in all regards.

If you don't like how Scientology can be so easily compared to Nazis, Muslim fanatics or Inquisition priests, then please provide some OTHER examples of a) similar delusional groups that b) commit continual HARM to others c) in the name of their unique "beliefs", "ideals", "purported lofty goals" and/or "visions for the future". Those points shown in "a", "b", and "c" exist in Scientology and they are not unique to Scientology. You are free to make other comparisons involving THOSE points.

I am waiting . . . .

I am waiting . . . .

I am waiting . . . .

Yap - yap - yap yourself, kiddo, and stick your stupid-ass Nazi comparisons where the sun doesn't shine - at least until you've brushed up your less-than-mediocre knowledge about the Nazis to a level at which you could be taken mildly seriously.

You want something comparable? How about the GDR (may it rot in hell)?
People ratting out their friends and loved ones to "the system" in the name of some "greater good"? Check.
People disappearing never to be seen ever again? Check.
Some people severely mistreated and/or even killed by "the system"? Check.
Families ripped apart? Check.
Some people locked away for decades for no valid reasons? Check.

I could go on and on, but I'll leave the rest for your history teacher, once you reach 6th grade. If that ever happens.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Scientologists working in an org assume control of your life just like it is some casual video game that they are playing and if they don't "win" with you, they just push "play again" with another person.

This is what they try to do. Yes. Spot-on.

It goes along with the subtitle, "Church of Depraved Indifference."

Excerpted from http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depraved-indifference:

To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.​

Paul

 

[Type4_PTS]

I haven't spent much time studying up on "other" cultic abuse victims. I suppose that my attitude is, "seen one, seen them all". I can't imagine that they differ that much from the key aspects that makes Scientology so "cultish". I could be wrong.

Seems that Scientologists DO have some things in common with nazis, terrorists, as well as other religious and political cults. There are some common ingredients in the recipe used to create suicide bombers as are used to create a scientologist or a moonie. This is per cult expert extraordinaire, Steve Hassan, who discussed this when I heard him speak last year at the Boston Megaraid hosted by the Anons.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Fanaticism is always ugly.

 

[Purple Rain]

Seems that Scientologists DO have some things in common with nazis, terrorists, as well as other religious and political cults. There are some common ingredients in the recipe used to create suicide bombers as are used to create a scientologist or a moonie. This is per cult expert extraordinaire, Steve Hassan, who discussed this when I heard him speak last year at the Boston Megaraid hosted by the Anons.

Yes, I heard something similar at the CIFS conference. I think that's helpful in terms of looking at the process used to make compliant people, but unhelpful in terms of the average joe on the street realising that something is wrong with Scientology. Stand there and explain how Scientologists are just like the Nazis or terrorists and see how long the person stops to listen. Talk about some of their actual policies and maybe they will hear you.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

WOW!!!

Helluva post, Helluva!!! H-E-L-LU-V-A P-O-S-T, Amigo!!!

I wish you well on your path as well, Hy.

Face

Thanks bud!

That phrase "...not going to make it" resonates in so many forms in Scientology.

KSW, naturally, being the most famous prediction of endless suffering for trillions of years if one doesn't obey Hubbard 100%.

It became refined and now exists as "...lose your eternity" in Scientology promo pieces, reg cycles and repeated in an endless loop in Scientologist's own minds.

I remember one protest video back in the day with the LMT in front of Flag. There was one scarily weird Scientologist (God, I hope they are not on ESMB now reading this! LOL) who kept telling protesters to "Think about your eternity" as though it was a magic incantation that would jar them into packing it up and going home. Such is the absurdly superstitious mind-set of an Operating Thetan.

But, let me get to the point of this post. . .

I seem to clearly recall that it was L. Ron Hubbard himself who advised the use of the phrase "...not going to make it" as an admonition that registrars and D of P's and Case Supervisors were to use when addressing any PC resisting their command to buy the next level.

Does anyone know the reference I am thinking of? It might have even been in the C/S Series.

There is a prize for the first person to post it here. (10,000 free theta units)

 

[Mick Wenlock]

No, but I'm not about to invoke Godwin's law either.

Go and watch Schindler's List again if you think there's ANY comparison, because I frankly think that's insulting to the millions of Jews who were murdered and tortured.

Compare the Scientology organisation to the mafia, maybe, or compare Hy's role to a conman, but Nazis? Please. There is no comparison. Who would rather go to Auschwitz than Boston org? Or Sydney? Or wherever.

If you want to indulge in over the top melodramatic Nazi analogies, be my guest. I think it's ridiculous, and as I say insulting to the absolute abject suffering of those people.

Go read what I wrote - I never mentioned Hitler, never mentioned the holocaust, didn't even mention the inquisition.

So if you are going to mouth off - at least mouth off at the right person.

And nice try at bringing in the pitiable picture as a prop for your strawman argument.