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New SP Times article: Former Scientology insiders describe a world of coercion

Gadfly

Crusader
Seems that Scientologists DO have some things in common with nazis, terrorists, as well as other religious and political cults. There are some common ingredients in the recipe used to create suicide bombers as are used to create a scientologist or a moonie. This is per cult expert extraordinaire, Steve Hassan, who discussed this when I heard him speak last year at the Boston Megaraid hosted by the Anons.

Yeah, I actually view Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany, Mao's communism, modern North Korea, along with the Spanish Inquisition as "cults" that simply involved 1) many more people and 2) large centralized controlling power structures. In many other regards they are very much similar - in terms of the heavy stress on a specific ideology, on unwillingness to tolerate ANY other views, on severe restrictions on what can be read or viewed, severe punishment for going out of agreement with the "party-line", zero tolerance for "dissent", zero tolerance for "free speech", extreme propaganda, and so forth. While the severity of the physical harm often differs with the smaller modern "cult", when compared to these classic examples of political and religious dictatorships, many of the "psychological" factors are quite similar.

In modern societies, for a small cult, it is difficult to torture and murder people in the name of some ideology, and get away with it. I don't doubt that some would if they could. That is my opinion. I remember reading reports of how Miscavige and other senior Sea Org executives were LAUGHING & CHEERING when Robert Vaughn Young died. I don't doubt for a second that IF THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH IT, that they would have help "his end" along. Really, knowing the fanatical dedication of the over-the-top Scientologist, the only reason they don't "make it go right" and "terminatedly handle critics" (with R2-45) is due to the potentially distastrous PR and legal consequences. It has nothing to do with "morals" or "ethics" since the ONLY correct ethical decision for a Scientologist is what "protects and expands Scientology".

So, as with Scientology, the methods of control have increased markedly in terms of emotional, psychological and mental. But, intentional manipulation and control is oppressive regardless of what "name" you want to associate it with.
 
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Purple Rain

Crusader
Well we were members of a fanatical, exploitive, abusive cult bent on dominating the world and eradicating its enemies all in the name of advancing the Hubbard Agenda. What would you compare that to - the Girl Guides?

The children who were born into it and grew up in it - well yeah, I would totally agree that they deserve a respectful and warm welcome and handling.

But those of us who joined? those of us who joined the SO? Why would there be some need to be kid gloves? Why not just start telling the truth?

Go read what I wrote - I never mentioned Hitler, never mentioned the holocaust, didn't even mention the inquisition.

So if you are going to mouth off - at least mouth off at the right person.

And nice try at bringing in the pitiable picture as a prop for your strawman argument.

No, in the context of Gadfly's post comparing Hy's harm to that done by Nazis, you suggested that perhaps we should compare the Scientology organisation to the Girl Scouts instead.

Unlike most people, I took that to mean you were supporting the comparison. Once again, my bad.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
The SP Times article on Scientology's "MONEY MACHINE" is really superb. I am excited to read the upcoming chapters on crush regging for Basic Books and other scams.

What the SP Times has not yet focused on is the core of the Money Machine, which is the concept used by the cult to terrorize its victims into paying exorbitant sums. That concept has always been:

"Not Going To Make It"

It is inherent in the dissemination formula. Getting the Scientologist into the mindset of "Ruin" and "Fear of Worsening" is the technique.

A well-conditioned Scientologist has a perpetual "Fear of Worsening" embedded in their mind with constant fears about falling further down the ruinous dwindling cycle or losing their eternity. They do not have to be put thru the rigors of a "Dissem Formula" --they area already ready to borrow themselves into oblivion at the slightest reminder by a registrar or ethics officer.

Non Scientologists have no idea whatsoever about this psychological torture trick played upon Scientologists. I hope the SP Times picks it up in the episodes to follow. Without understanding WHY Scientologists sacrifice themselves, a wog is left wondering what the hell could possibly be going on that Scientologists are so blind and stupid.

Fear is a powerful motivating force that lies at center stage for Scientology's well-oiled money machine.

There is something else quite horrifically ironic about this "Not Going To Make It" treachery. Scientology proudly promotes Clear and OT III and OT V and even OT VII as the cure for eternal happiness.

For example, going "Clear" is held up as the cure-all that will bestow health and happiness for the rest of ones life. But...

SCIENTOLOGY CAREFULLY AND METICULOUSLY HIDES THE FACT THAT
A CLEAR IS "NOT GOING TO MAKE IT" AND WILL "LOSE THEIR ETERNITY"
IF THEY DON'T SPEND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MORE.

The deception is profound.

On one hand, Scientology celebrates Dianetics and Clear with events and multi-million dollar promotions worldwide about the majesty of Clear. People are standing on their feet cheering for Ron Hubbard's miraculous discovery of Clear because a Clear is sublimely free and happy. On the other hand, Scientology is secretly terrorizing its Clears in closed registration rooms, grimly advising them that their life is in ruin, should they fail or refuse to drain all their financial resources and promptly hand it over to Scientology.

The Clear's success story is used with abandon to excite wogs and lower-level Scientologists to pay hundreds of millions of dollars. But when Scientology is speaking directly to that very same Clear, they are telling him what dreadfully awful case shape they are in and how they will soon perish unless they pay significantly more.

Scientology is entirely and relentlessly duplicitous. Actually, Hubbard invented a technical term that better describes it.

One-One (1.1)
 
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Purple Rain

Crusader
Yeah, I actually view Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany, Mao's communism, modern North Korea, along with the Spanish Inquisition as "cults" that simply involved 1) many more people and 2) large centralized controlling power structures. In many other regards they are very much similar - in terms of the heavy stress on a specific ideology, on unwillingness to tolerate ANY other views, on severe restrictions on what can be read or viewed, severe punishment for going out of agreement with the "party-line", zero tolerance for "dissent", zero tolerance for "free speech", extreme propaganda, and so forth. While the severity of the physical harm often differs with the smaller modern "cult", when compared to these classic examples of political and religious dictatorships, many of the "psychological" factors are quite similar.

Well, that is true, but it could also describe your boss or your high school principal. It doesn't make the person a Nazi.
 
The SP Times article on Scientology's "MONEY MACHINE" is really superb. I am excited to read the upcoming chapters on crush regging for Basic Books and other scams.

What the SP Times has not yet focused on is the core of the Money Machine, which is the concept used by the cult to terrorize its victims. That concept has always been:

"Not Going To Make It"

It is inherent in the dissemination formula. Getting the Scientologist to the mindset of "Ruin" and "Fear of Worsening" is the technique.

A well-conditioned Scientologist has a perpetual "Fear of Worsening" embedded in their mind with constant fears about losing their eternity. They do not have to be put thru the rigors of a "Dissem Formula" --they area already ready to borrow themselves into oblivion at the slightest reminder by a registrar or ethics officer.

Non Scientologists have no idea whatsoever about this psychological torture trick played upon Scientologists. I hope the SP Times picks it up in the episodes to follow. Without understanding WHY Scientologists sacrifice themselves, a wog is left wondering what the hell could possibly be going on that Scientologists are so blind and stupid.

Fear is a powerful motivating force that lies at center stage for Scientology's well-oiled money machine.

There is something else quite horrifically ironic about this "Not Going To Make It" treachery. Scientology proudly promotes Clear and OT III and OT V and even OT VII as the cure for eternal happiness.

For example, going "Clear" is held up as the cure-all that will bestow health and happiness for the rest of ones life. But...

SCIENTOLOGY CAREFULLY AND METICULOUSLY HIDES THE FACT THAT
A CLEAR IS "NOT GOING TO MAKE IT" AND WILL "LOSE THEIR ETERNITY"
IF THEY DON'T SPEND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MORE.

The deception is profound.

On one hand, Scientology celebrates Dianetics and Clear with events and multi-million dollar promotions worldwide about the majesty of Clear. People are standing on their feet cheering for Ron Hubbard's miraculous discovery of Clear. On the other hand, Scientology is secretly terrorizing its Clears in closed registration rooms, grimly advising them that their life is in ruin, should they fail or refuse to drain all their financial resources and promptly hand it over to Scientology.

Scientology is entirely and relentlessly duplicitous. Actually, Hubbard invented a technical term that better describes it.

1.1

that is probably an OT level I missed.

Since I have some friends, still in those clutches, can you tell me more (personal anecdotes preferably).

Sounding a little like Gordon Gekko here, I was in it for personal gain.

When the "help" ceased, I was gone.
 

Karen#1

Gold Meritorious Patron
There is one HUGE omitted in the "Church" response by the Tommy Davis
replacement KAREN POUW.

The actual TRUTH of the real estate scam.
Duped Parishioners think they are PURCHASING their local Org.
They are not.
It belongs to the "Church of Scientology International" who then LEASES it back to the local Church for $$$$
Every week the CSI cut which must come right off the top of their financial planning before the staff get any payroll.
(NOTE that some donors only paid hoping that local ownership would permit starving moonlighting staff to get paid better as RENT is always a big expense.)
But even though the local Church weekly revenue must pay utilities, and renovations, furnishings, and ALL expenses ~~
Church of Scientology International owns it.
It is a cash cow.

Every single "Ideal org" is a huge revenue source as they have to PAY the
MOTHER CHURCH to lease it back, after all the locals paid for it !
 
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Yeah, I actually view Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany, Mao's communism, modern North Korea, along with the Spanish Inquisition as "cults" that simply involved 1) many more people and 2) large centralized controlling power structures. In many other regards they are very much similar - in terms of the heavy stress on a specific ideology, on unwillingness to tolerate ANY other views, on severe restrictions on what can be read or viewed, severe punishment for going out of agreement with the "party-line", zero tolerance for "dissent", zero tolerance for "free speech", extreme propaganda, and so forth. While the severity of the physical harm often differs with the smaller modern "cult", when compared to these classic examples of political and religious dictatorships, many of the "psychological" factors are quite similar.

In modern societies, for a small cult, it is difficult to torture and murder people in the name of some ideology, and get away with it. I don't doubt that some would if they could. That is my opinion. I remember reading reports of how Miscavige and other senior Sea Org executives were LAUGHING & CHEERING when Robert Vaughn Young died. I don't doubt for a second that IF THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH IT, that they would have help "his end" along. Really, knowing the fanatical dedication of the over-the-top Scientologist, the only reason they don't "make it go right" and "terminatedul;y handle critics" (with R2-45) is due to potential distastrous PR consequences. It has nothing to do woith "morals" or "ethics" since the ONLY correct ethical decision for a Scientologist is what "protects and expands Scientology".

So, as with Scientology, the methods of control have increased markedly in terms of emotional, psychological and mental. But, intentional manipulation and control is oppressive regardless of what "name" you want to associate it with.

torn from today's headlines -- Penn State FOOTBALL is another primo example of a cult gone disgusting.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Well, that is true, but it could also describe your boss or your high school principal. It doesn't make the person a Nazi.

I NEVER SAID anyone "was a Nazi"!!!!!!!! :duh:

I was comparing certain TRAITS of Scientology to those of Nazis. Certain specific traits. I never said Scientologists ARE Nazis. Never. Please stop reading into my posts what isn't there. Okay?

High school principals and bosses dont generally have and forward an IDEOLOGY to the degree that does the Scientologist, or Jehovah's Witness, or Nazi, or Muslim extremist. They are in entirely different leagues than the high school principal or boss. And the mind control and pressure inherent to life in Scientology is MUCH closer to the psychology of totalitarianism than to that of ANY high school principal or boss. :yes:
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
I NEVER SAID anyone "was a Nazi"!!!!!!!! :duh:

I was comparing certain TRAITS of Scientology to those of Nazis. Certain specific traits. I never said Scientologists ARE Nazis. Never. Please stop reading into my posts what isn't there. Okay?

High school principals and bosses dont generally have and forward an IDEOLOGY to the degree that does the Scientologist, or Jehovah's Witness, or Nazi, or Muslim extremist. They are in entirely different leagues than the high school principal or boss. And the mind control and pressure inherent to life in Scientology is MUCH closer to the psychology of totalitarianism than to that of ANY high school principal or boss. :yes:

Okay. :yes:
 
There is one HUGE omitted in the "Church" response by the Tommy Davis
replacement KAREN POUW.

since Tommy and his wife are children of friends, I am more than a little interested. What do you *think** is going on?

What would a friend, a real friend, say to Anne or Cindy? (this is not a rhetorical question)
 

Good twin

Floater
Funny HH but it's far worse than we can even verbalize. One of the lower grades is ARC Straightwire. The EP is the PC knowing he won't get any worse. It sounds like a magical and wonderful state to those who are stepping onto the Bridge to total irrational oblivion, but one for one the guys who achieve the state happily realize that they are more fucked up then they ever have been because of the dwindling spiral and thanks to Scientology and their determination to keep buying and completing bridge steps......well you get the idea.

Thank you Ron. :p
 

Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
Interesting thread. I think the further away one gets from one's own standards of morality and right-doing, the harder it is to get back to them. It's a hard thing to admit to yourself that you were wrong in your ideas and your actions, and even harder to publicly admit it. And the longer you take to do it, the more hateful and ashamed you feel about it. (I have a lot of experience here.)

I think someone like Hy will find it painful to justify what he did over all those years. He obviously had a talent for persuasion and he may have thought that what he was doing was for the greatest good -- at least at first. Ultimately, though, he was on the same treadmill that we all were chained to, and the dial was turned up every week the same way it was for many of us. Chance determined where we ended up in the SO and the degree we were exposed to ways to harm others.

On the other hand, it's also true that the huge bulk of SO and staff members and public scientologists just look the other way, or suppress those queasy feelings of worry, for most of their time in CoS when they should be listening to their instincts and rationality. If we had all acted when we first noticed something wrong, we would have spent days or weeks in CoS instead of years.

So I respect and admire Hy's ability to 'fess up publicly and be honest about the things he did. I'm sure it wasn't easy. I don't feel I have to take a little scourge to him as I'm pretty sure he's doing that to himself right about now.

Scientology's a curse. So are all cults. The more I learn about cults, the better I understand Scientology and its effects on me and others.
 

Gadfly

Crusader

I get it! I will rephrase my comment (leaving out any and all references to Nazis).

Scientology compares in many ways, very similarly, to the fanaticism of 14th priests of the Spanish Inquisition and to modern Muslim extremists. They all have severe ideologies that allow for zero disagreement with the tenets of "the faith". They all imagine themselves to "possess the total truth about all-that-is", and have the view that "all others are wrong". They imagine that ONLY their path is the true and valid path to salvation. They TRULY BELIEVE that they are "helping people", no matter how much actual harm they do to various people along the way.

This began because Panda said:

"Hy truly believed in the product he was selling and truly believed that it actually delivered all that it promised".

I came back with:

Jesus Christ on a Cross, why do people use this notion of "he believed in what he was doing" as some index that MAKES IT BE OKAY????!!!!!

I still stand by this and will leave out any further mention of Nazis (it isn't needed to make my point anyway):

The priests of the Spanish Inquisition TRULY BELIEVED that they were "saving the souls of sinners" when they tightened the thumbscrews during torture or lit the blazing fire around the heretic.

The psychiatrist truly believed that he was "helping" some person when he injected him or her full of Thorazine (the "chemical lobotomy') or continually jolted high current into his or her brain. (i.e. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)

The Muslim fanatic truly believes that he is helping himself and his "brothers-in-arms" ascend to Heaven when he detonates a suicide bomb in a bus of innocent young Israeli children.

While the "severity" surely differs, the basic idea is the same.

Certain people justify "harming others" in alignment with their "belief system". For example, a crazed Christian recently bombed an abortion center killing a few doctors. Same nuttiness. Harm committed due to some nutty belief that "I was helping". :confused2:

That is why I like Buddhism. The SENIOR ideal is compassion for ALL living things, and there is NO IDEOLOGY to enable ANY MORON to happily hurt others in the name of some absurd "just cause". There is no excuse that can be used to justify "harming others" in the name of some "ideal". It is "ideologically-free" or "ideal neutral". Scientology is NOT that at all, and THAT is why the harm can be and is justified.
 
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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Yes, I heard something similar at the CIFS conference. I think that's helpful in terms of looking at the process used to make compliant people, but unhelpful in terms of the average joe on the street realising that something is wrong with Scientology. Stand there and explain how Scientologists are just like the Nazis or terrorists and see how long the person stops to listen. Talk about some of their actual policies and maybe they will hear you.

I think the average person on the street has NO idea on what it takes to produce a scientologist or a terrorist. I was involved with CoS for 10 years and now have been out for over 20 - and am now just beginning to really grasp what was done to me, how I was conned, indoctrinated, mind controlled to accept Hubbard's view of the world.

Terrorists believe that they are doing the greatest good just as we did and that the end justifies the means, just as we did.

IMO it is essential that the knowledge of cults, the process that is used to create members be widely taught throughout the world, as well as the red flags to be aware of so as not to get seduced/entrapped by a cult. That knowledge if taught to children so they really understand it will inoculate 99% of them so they don't fall into the same trap we all did.
 
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Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
...

Jesus Christ on a Cross, why do people use this notion of "he believed in what he was doing" as some index that MAKES IT BE OKAY????!!!!!

I still stand by this and will leave out any further mention of Nazis (it isn't needed to make my point anyway):

...

I take your point, Gadfly. Using that defence ("I believed in what I was doing") is pretty close to the Nuremberg Defence ("I was only doing my job"). Oops, didn't mean to stray too close to Naziism there!
 

Karen#1

Gold Meritorious Patron
HY levy did something MORE than Magnificent

HE was a trail blazer to show others that those worthless documents one has to sign, signing away all rights to speak up were WORTHLESS !
Note the part in the video where he had to sign that 1" thick pile of documents
to NEVER EVER whistle blow on what goes on internally.
They are paranoid that no one reveals their Sea Org dirty secrets....
Many exiting Sea org members do not speak up believing those documents hold actual fines of $50,000 per violation !
What codswallop ! Those enforced signatures on the documents signed in the OSA office under camera are WORTHLESS ! WORTHLESS !

I hope it emboldens a lot more to speak up who think that "contract" to be muzzled and gagged is valid.

My son had to sign one of those under camera with Security guard, OSA legal and so out of view of the camera.
And note that HY Levy said::::::
19 months to route out. I bet he had more sec checks than I did !
19 months of holding you against your will after asking to leave.

1st Amendment Rights as a "religion"! "Ministerial Exemption !"

But no 1st amendment rights to SPEAK UP without pretended $50,000 fines.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
I NEVER SAID anyone "was a Nazi"!!!!!!!! :duh:

I was comparing certain TRAITS of Scientology to those of Nazis. Certain specific traits. I never said Scientologists ARE Nazis. Never. Please stop reading into my posts what isn't there. Okay?

<snip>

$cientology also shares "certain specific traits" with almost any other group one can come up with. Psychologists, Baptists, Rock Musicians, whatever.

What makes the Nazi comparison so very inappropriate, is that the $cientologists have not (yet) begun to remove complete ethnic groups from the face of the earth.
 
I get it! I will rephrase my comment.

Scientology compares in many ways, very similarly, to the fanaticism of 14th priests of the Spanish Inquisition and to modern Muslim extremists. They all have severe ideologies that allow for zero disagreement with the tenets of "the faith". They all imagine themselves to "possess the total truth about all-that-is", and have the view that "all others are wrong". They imagine that ONLY their path is the ture and valid path to salvation. They TRULY BELIEVE that they are "helping people", no matter how much actual harm they do to various people along the way.

This began because Panda said:

"Hy truly believed in the product he was selling and truly believed that it actually delivered all that it promised".

I came back with:

Jesus Christ on a Cross, why do people use this notion of "he believed in what he was doing" as some index that MAKES IT BE OKAY????!!!!!

I still stand by this and will leave out any further mention of Nazis (it isn't needed to make my point anyway):

The priests of the Spanish Inquisition TRULY BELIEVED that they were "saving the souls of sinners" when they tightened the thumbscrews during torture or lit the blazing fire around the heretic.

The psychiatrist truly believed that he was "helping" some person when he injected him or her full of Thorazine (the "chemical lobotomy') or continually jolted high current into his or her brain. (i.e. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)

The Muslim fanatic truly believes that he is helping himself and his "brothers-in-arms" ascend to Heaven when he detonates a suicide bomb in a bus of innocent young Israeli children.

While the "severity" surely differs, the basic idea is the same.

Certain people justify "harming others" in alignment with their "belief system". For example, a crazed Christian recently bombed an abortion center killing a few doctors. Same nuttiness. Harm committed due to some nutty belief that "I was helping". :confused2:

That is why I like Buddhism. The SENIOR ideal is compassion for ALL living things, and there is NO IDEOLOGY to enable ANY MORON to happily hurt others in the name of some absurd "just cause".

This is a KILLER post (no pun intended)!!!

I agree wholeheartedly.
 
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