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lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

They won't find anything non-material doing material research.

Any scientific research at best can only give more questions about what is physically behind certain phenomenon.

Some may interpret the results as their being a soul, but no one is going to find any physical proof, which is what scienctific research does.

But if you mean there is no soul I am wondering how you know that.

Because even if one does every kind of scientific experiement possible or conceivable, it couldn't discover a soul because a soul is by definition non-material.

So how can one know by their senses that which cannot be sensed by their senses?

The Anabaptist Jacques

I like your phrase above, "Some may interpret the results as their being a soul" or as there being a soul (no pun intended). There is a mathematical term called "extrapolation", which is sometimes used to suggest outcomes which can not directly be sensed. It is a valid scientific technique when done properly. A good example is to sum an endless series of numbers, i.e. 1/2 +1/4+1/8+1/16...No one can sit down and sum an infinite series of numbers but through extrapolation, we can state that this series of number sums to the number "1" as the number of terms in the series increases without bound.

The human senses are normally not accurate enough to serve in the capacity of scientific readings. Human senses tend to be "analog" in nature, i.e. one touches something and states its hot or cold or the weather is about 72 degrees today. This type of information is generally not accurate enough for scientific testing. As a result, sensitive measuring devices have to be developed to check out scientific theories.

Similarly, just because human senses can't detect something, that certainly does not mean that something does not exist - the opposite is also true. We need, somehow, to develop means to extrapolate beyond the human senses in order to extend the boundaries of scientific knowledge!

For me, the human spirit would be COMPLETELY proven if someone had very accurate memories of a past life. If an 8 year old boy could state with certainty what his name was, where he lived, who his parents, siblings and pets were, where he was buried, where he went to school, etc. that would seal the deal, especially if he could go visit his former family. How could one deny the existence of a non material component of a person in the face of such evidence.

Unfortunately, I know of no such person who can perform this feat. If such a thing could be done, wouldn't you agree that this was a "scientific" proof of the existence of a soul?
Lakey
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I like you phrase above, "Some may interpret the results as their being a soul" or as there being a soul (no pun intended). There is the mathematical term called "extrapolation". This technique is sometimes used to suggest outcomes which can not directly be sensed and when that is done, it is considered "scientific" when extrapolation is carried out in a formal mathematical way. A good example is to sum an endless series of numbers, i.e. 1/2 +1/4+1/8+1/16...No one can sit down and sum an infinite series of numbers but through extrapolation, we can state that this series of number sums to 1 as the number of terms in the series increases without bound.

The human senses are normally not accurate enough to serve in the capacity of scientific readings. Human senses tend to be "analog" in nature, i.e. one touches something and states its hot or cold or the weather is about 72 degrees today. This type of information is generally not accurate enough for scientific testing. As a result, sensitive measuring devices have to be developed to check out scientific theories.

Similarly, just because human senses can't detect something, that certainly does not mean that something does not exist - the opposite is also true. We need, somehow, to develop means to extrapolate beyond the human senses in order to extend the boundaries of scientific knowledge!

For me, the human spirit would be COMPLETELY proven if someone had very accurate memories of a past life. If an 8 year old boy could state with certainty what his name was, where he lived, who his parents, siblings and pets were, where he was buried, where he went to school, etc. that would seal the deal, especially if they were still living and he could go visit them How could one deny the existence of a non material component of a person in the face of such evidence.

Unfortunately, I know of no such person who can perform this feat. If such a thing could be done, wouldn't you agree that this was a "scientific" proof of the soul?
Lakey

It would prove that *information* can survive the death of a physical body. Whether that proves the existence of a soul, or that a mind can survive that death would not be proven. This is a hot topic in physics related to Black Holes.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

It would prove that *information* can survive the death of a physical body. Whether that proves the existence of a soul, or that a mind can survive that death would not be proven. This is a hot topic in physics related to Black Holes.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

I respect what you are saying but I prefer the more simple view of a pragmatist. I'll check out your link and comment on that as well.

What's the popular saying? "If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then its probably a duck". Why make up some other esoteric explanation?
Lakey
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I respect what you are saying but I prefer the more simple view of a pragmatist. I'll check out your link and comment on that as well.

What's the popular saying? "If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then its probably a duck". Why make up some other esoteric explanation?
Lakey

I personally have come to the same conclusions as you, but the survival of the information doesn't gives us the proof of the survival of the individual that we'd like to have. The fact that someone is born with this information available to them apparently as memory isn't enough. What is memory? Where is it stored? In the mind? In the brain? In the soul? We just don't know. We do intuitively sense it to be so, and deduce it from our experience, but we don't have proof yet. Speaking for myself, I can say that I have reason to believe, but no proof.

The fact that a thing is unproven doesn't mean that it's untrue.

"A lot of what we have inside us - what we feel, what resonates for us, 'doesn't make sense' when forced into these little packages called words and dropped into the concensus reality. But that doesn't mean they're not true. It means that they can't always survive the descent into language unscathed."
- Smilla


 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

For you folks interested in the goings on in the world of international politics, finance and all, you might be interested in the following.

The Chinese have just sealed a deal to takeover the London Metal Exchange . . . the Chinese have done this via their Hong Kong Exchanges & Clearing Company.

For those who may not be aware of the nuances involved, the LME is not just a dinky little assemblage of traders buying and selling against each other in a little side street in London :no::no:

The LME effectively controls the supply and delivery of metals to the world market . . . it operates a number of vast warehouses around the world in key strategic locations in which stocks of various metals are kept for delivery to end users on demand.

This is a vast undertaking that has been developed over a very long time.

So now the Chinese effectively control the pipeline and supply of your metals: copper, aluminium, zinc, etc., etc.

Looks like next lifetime I'll need to learn Mandarin . . . or become one :melodramatic:

Rog


Yep.
 
Death

[video=youtube;-UKhVRIi_yY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UKhVRIi_yY[/video]

About a decade ago, I took our garage down to studs, added another ten feet of concrete, dug in, and connected to the sewer, put in a full electrical service, plumbing, ethernet, and rebuilt the garage into a really spiffy little cottage.

After the kids stopped using it, we started renting it out. We've had Stanford Medical School doctors, a NASA rocket scientist, and others.

The other day, I arrived home to see a dozen cop cars and crime scene tape across our property.

Our tenant, in the cottage, had checked out without taking his body.

He had a 10 year old daughter and a 17 year old son and an ex wife.

They came to see him around 6 that night. His bloody naked body blocked the front door.

Having, myself, been the person cleaning up the mess for the past couple of days, it looks like he got into the jacuzzi, slashed himself including his intestines and arteries, and then, had a change of heart. He got out of the tub, struggled across the bathroom, the living room, and to the foyer, where he collapsed at the front door, effectively blocking it.

There was broken glass overlaying blood and shit. The glass came from the sheriff's officers breaking the double paned glass sliding doors at the back of the cottage. It flew everywhere. Bloody hand prints that slid over door jambs, blood squirted every which way, pools of blood on the carpet, tile, and linoleum. A couple of inches of blood and shit in the jacuzzi. The smell, though now gone, lingers in my mind's nose.

His ex says he was a nice man. He seemed nice enough.

My opinion, colored by this action of his, is he was a _____.

My wife's word, was the same as my own, when I told her. It is the MF word.

He was 56, a CEO of his own company. He had recently been to the Grammy Awards. Professionally, he was no slouch.

Somewhere in there, he was lacking something. He wasn't physically sick. He could have been a tennis pro. He drove a new car, had nice things, wasn't a slob.

Still......

[video=youtube;euuCiSY0qYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euuCiSY0qYs[/video]
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Re: Death

[video=youtube;-UKhVRIi_yY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UKhVRIi_yY[/video]

About a decade ago, I took our garage down to studs, added another ten feet of concrete, dug in, and connected to the sewer, put in a full electrical service, plumbing, ethernet, and rebuilt the garage into a really spiffy little cottage.

After the kids stopped using it, we started renting it out. We've had Stanford Medical School doctors, a NASA rocket scientist, and others.

The other day, I arrived home to see a dozen cop cars and crime scene tape across our property.

Our tenant, in the cottage, had checked out without taking his body.

He had a 10 year old daughter and a 17 year old son and an ex wife.

They came to see him around 6 that night. His bloody naked body blocked the front door.

Having, myself, been the person cleaning up the mess for the past couple of days, it looks like he got into the jacuzzi, slashed himself including his intestines and arteries, and then, had a change of heart. He got out of the tub, struggled across the bathroom, the living room, and to the foyer, where he collapsed at the front door, effectively blocking it.

There was broken glass overlaying blood and shit. The glass came from the sheriff's officers breaking the double paned glass sliding doors at the back of the cottage. It flew everywhere. Bloody hand prints that slid over door jambs, blood squirted every which way, pools of blood on the carpet, tile, and linoleum. A couple of inches of blood and shit in the jacuzzi. The smell, though now gone, lingers in my mind's nose.

His ex says he was a nice man. He seemed nice enough.

My opinion, colored by this action of his, is he was a _____.

My wife's word, was the same as my own, when I told her. It is the MF word.

He was 56, a CEO of his own company. He had recently been to the Grammy Awards. Professionally, he was no slouch.

Somewhere in there, he was lacking something. He wasn't physically sick. He could have been a tennis pro. He drove a new car, had nice things, wasn't a slob.

Still......

[video=youtube;euuCiSY0qYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euuCiSY0qYs[/video]

Wow!

I've never wanted to be a landlord because I don't want to deal with tenant's shit. This situation confirms my apprehension.

How terrible for his kids. I think your word for him is appropriate.
 

looker

Patron Meritorious
Death

I guess age is a factor for some people Not having accomplished a goal or sacraficed for others. Suicide is a long term solution to a short term problem.

I'm not sure why people dont go somewhere private to die and not leave a graphic scene. Unless they want to say see look how horrible it was for me.

In any case its a shock for all conscerned. Sorry to hear about that Carmello.

We live in interesting times. Makes me think about the Dr Michael Newton Between lives video Paul refered to. Where when we go imbetween lives we meet our guardian angels. if you will, and we discuss how it went and what lessons we learned.
 
Re: Death

Wow!

I've never wanted to be a landlord because I don't want to deal with tenant's shit. This situation confirms my apprehension.

How terrible for his kids. I think your word for him is appropriate.

Fathers' Day is Sunday. His kids won't soon forget it, as each Fathers' Day rolls around.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: Death

[video=youtube;-UKhVRIi_yY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UKhVRIi_yY[/video]

About a decade ago, I took our garage down to studs, added another ten feet of concrete, dug in, and connected to the sewer, put in a full electrical service, plumbing, ethernet, and rebuilt the garage into a really spiffy little cottage.

After the kids stopped using it, we started renting it out. We've had Stanford Medical School doctors, a NASA rocket scientist, and others.

The other day, I arrived home to see a dozen cop cars and crime scene tape across our property.

Our tenant, in the cottage, had checked out without taking his body.

He had a 10 year old daughter and a 17 year old son and an ex wife.

They came to see him around 6 that night. His bloody naked body blocked the front door.

Having, myself, been the person cleaning up the mess for the past couple of days, it looks like he got into the jacuzzi, slashed himself including his intestines and arteries, and then, had a change of heart. He got out of the tub, struggled across the bathroom, the living room, and to the foyer, where he collapsed at the front door, effectively blocking it.

There was broken glass overlaying blood and shit. The glass came from the sheriff's officers breaking the double paned glass sliding doors at the back of the cottage. It flew everywhere. Bloody hand prints that slid over door jambs, blood squirted every which way, pools of blood on the carpet, tile, and linoleum. A couple of inches of blood and shit in the jacuzzi. The smell, though now gone, lingers in my mind's nose.

His ex says he was a nice man. He seemed nice enough.

My opinion, colored by this action of his, is he was a _____.

My wife's word, was the same as my own, when I told her. It is the MF word.

He was 56, a CEO of his own company. He had recently been to the Grammy Awards. Professionally, he was no slouch.

Somewhere in there, he was lacking something. He wasn't physically sick. He could have been a tennis pro. He drove a new car, had nice things, wasn't a slob.

Still......

[video=youtube;euuCiSY0qYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euuCiSY0qYs[/video]

Well that person certainly left a mess and a lot of heartache behind them. The only thing I can think of is that there was some kind of major undiagnosed, and untreated, mental illness going on. Having said that, it's known that some people do suicide out of spite, with the express intention of hurting those who have to pick up the pieces. Suicide is quite often a split-second, impulsive act, rather than something that's been thought through and decided upon. Whatever the reason, it's bad to leave other people with the consequences.
 
Re: Death

I guess age is a factor for some people Not having accomplished a goal or sacraficed for others. Suicide is a long term solution to a short term problem.

I'm not sure why people dont go somewhere private to die and not leave a graphic scene. Unless they want to say see look how horrible it was for me.

In any case its a shock for all conscerned. Sorry to hear about that Carmello.

We live in interesting times. Makes me think about the Dr Michael Newton Between lives video Paul refered to. Where when we go imbetween lives we meet our guardian angels. if you will, and we discuss how it went and what lessons we learned.

I think he was just selfish, not making an FU statement.

**My think**:
Somewhere in a little spot in his mind, he didn't have a grasp of all his connections with others.

My guardian angels are with me constantly. I don't need to end my life to chat with them. Here are just a couple:

attachment.php


attachment.php
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: Death

I guess age is a factor for some people Not having accomplished a goal or sacraficed for others. Suicide is a long term solution to a short term problem.

I'm not sure why people dont go somewhere private to die and not leave a graphic scene. Unless they want to say see look how horrible it was for me.

In any case its a shock for all conscerned. Sorry to hear about that Carmello.

We live in interesting times. Makes me think about the Dr Michael Newton Between lives video Paul refered to. Where when we go imbetween lives we meet our guardian angels. if you will, and we discuss how it went and what lessons we learned.

Maybe it will be a court of law, complete with a tough judge, lawyers, and a couple of beefy sherrifs :omg:
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: Death

I think he was just selfish, not making an FU statement.

**My think**:
Somewhere in a little spot in his mind, he didn't have a grasp of all his connections with others.

My guardian angels are with me constantly. I don't need to end my life to chat with them. Here are just a couple:

attachment.php


attachment.php

Yes. I tend to think these days that sanity is knowing what matters, and of course it's people - everything else is just the backdrop. Horses and some other animals too.They are people of a kind when you really get to know them. I fell off mine a couple of weeks ago and busted my arm up a bit, but I don't blame him - I wasn't paying attention.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Re: Death

Maybe it will be a court of law, complete with a tough judge, lawyers, and a couple of beefy sherrifs :omg:

Oh no! I hope there aren't any lawyers there! :nervous:

On the subject of Michael Newton's work, if what he has found through all the Life Between Lives research is true, this man will have to ultimately deal with the problems and issues he committed suicide over. If I understand accurately, when one commits suicide that one will have to come back and relive a life with the same issues. Then of course there's karma, which according to Newton isn't punishment. It's for balance. What he did to his children and other loved ones will have to be experienced by himself in the future. Of course who knows, perhaps his children are having to experience this because they caused the same or similar upset to loved ones in the past.

I have to admit that sometimes I wish that when we die we are just dead.

I will also say that I am not totally convinced that Michael Newton's work is true. I do think he's honest and rigorous with his work. But I am not dogmatically sure of his conclusions. I won't know til I myself pass on. If it's just lights out, then I won't know anything...sort of like now. :coolwink:
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: Death

Oh no! I hope there aren't any lawyers there! :nervous:

On the subject of Michael Newton's work, if what he has found through all the Life Between Lives research is true, this man will have to ultimately deal with the problems and issues he committed suicide over. If I understand accurately, when one commits suicide that one will have to come back and relive a life with the same issues. Then of course there's karma, which according to Newton isn't punishment. It's for balance. What he did to his children and other loved ones will have to be experienced by himself in the future. Of course who knows, perhaps his children are having to experience this because they caused the same or similar upset to loved ones in the past.

I have to admit that sometimes I wish that when we die we are just dead.

I will also say that I am not totally convinced that Michael Newton's work is true. I've read 2 books and I am impressed by the approach that he took. I think he's honest. I also think that he is probably close to the truth. But I am not dogmatically sure. I won't know til I myself pass on. If it's just lights out, then I won't know anything...sort of like now. :coolwink:

To be honest I don't think much about death and what comes after it much anymore. I just trust that there will be some meaningful experience, of some kind. If not we won't able to make any complaints!
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: Death

[video=youtube;BGqY_2B9_G4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGqY_2B9_G4[/video]

Good song. They were really great then.

Here's one for you giving another comment on the same theme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Instrumental break.

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory and I don't like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
But I choose to let the mystery be.

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

-Iris Dement
 
Re: Death

Yes. I tend to think these days that sanity is knowing what matters, and of course it's people - everything else is just the backdrop. Horses and some other animals too.They are people of a kind when you really get to know them. I fell off mine a couple of weeks ago and busted my arm up a bit, but I don't blame him - I wasn't paying attention.

One spring, after heavy rains, I was out riding in the dark with a friend. I turned around to talk with her, and my horse slipped and fell. I held onto the reins but landed on a big sharp rock. Got a broken rib. Getting back on, bareback, in the dark with a very painful broken rib was interesting. Riding two hours home on a bouncy Arab was somewhat painful.

My riding companion was a former beauty queen and a stewardess for United, a knock out, to say the least. When we got back to my house, Phil Spickler was visiting. The next day he gave me an assist. The first question out of his mouth (thinking overt / motivator) was "Are you schtuping Nanci?"

I wasn't, but because of the question, I had a nice release realizing that playing games, one sometimes loses. Playing with 1,200 pound horses, one can get hurt. It is the price of admission to the game. I'd rather play the game and fall off (as I have a hundred times or more) than never play at all.

There is no feeling to compare with a no holds barred cross country race with a couple of horses, jumping streams, gullies, logs, and barriers. Feeling their emotions, their competitive spirit, their size and power. We do it bareback with string halters.

this is a picture I took while we were both galloping across some local hills.

attachment.php
 
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Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: Death

One spring, after heavy rains, I was out riding in the dark with a friend. I turned around to talk with her, and my horse slipped and fell. I held onto the reins but landed on a big sharp rock. Got a broken rib. Getting back on, bareback, in the dark with a very painful broken rib was interesting. Riding two hours home on a bouncy Arab was somewhat painful.

My riding companion was a former beauty queen and a stewardess for United, a knock out, to say the least. When we got back to my house, Phil Spickler was visiting. The next day he gave me an assist. The first question out out of his mouth (thinking overt / motivator) was "Are you schtuping Nanci?"

I wasn't, but because of the question, I had a nice release realizing that playing games, one sometimes loses. Playing with 1,200 pound horses, one can get hurt. It is the price of admission to the game. I'd rather play the game and fall off (as I have a hundred times or more) than never play at all.

There is no feeling to compare with a no holds barred cross country race with a couple of horses, jumping streams, gullies, logs, and barriers. Feeling their emotions, their competitive spirit, their size and power. We do it bareback with string halters.

this is a picture I took while we were both galloping across some local hills.

attachment.php

Yeah, if a horse trusts you and he pulls out all the stops it's an awesome thing. In the true sense of the word. Like you say, nothing compares.
 
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