Scientology is all bad

[Smilla]

I found description of this method in Wikipedia, it consists of taking the patient back it time to the moment when the trauma occurred, and asking him to recall the incident over and over. Of course, there is no mentioning of the engrams because the psychologists who developed this method are not Scientologists.
The article also says that this is not the most effective method of PTSD treatment -- there are other, much more effective methods.

I read this article 6 months ago, and I did not save a link to it.

It's called Therapeautic Abreaction, and has largely been abandoned, due it's proving to be of negligable benefit to most trauma sufferers, and actually injurious to some.

Dianetics and Scientology are two forms of abreaction that science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard borrowed from the United States Navy [2] when he spent three months in a San Diego hospital in 1943 with the complaints of an ulcer and malaria.[3] Hubbard later wrote, in his autobiography "My Philosophy," that he had observed abreactive therapy in the hospital, though in later life he claimed to have made the "discovery" on his own after being wounded in battle and given up as untreatable.[4] The United States Navy abandoned abreaction at the end of World War Two as they found it made post traumatic stress victims worse,[5] with no observable benefits.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abreaction

 

[Demented LRH]

My advice to those who use Dianetics -- find the original articles that were written by the scientists whose works Hubbard "appropriated". If you do that, you will find tons of valuable data that Hubbard did not include in Dianetics because he could not understand it. He borrowed the basic staff from their research; you can do much better if you use all advanced data.

Similar advice had been already given at this thread.

I have nothing more to say on the topic of Dianetics, so I move to the OT data.

The question is -- where is scientific evidence showing that a soul (I prefer not to use the word "thetan" because it is unfamiliar to the general public) can be captured and hypnotized?

 

[Demented LRH]

It's called Therapeautic Abreaction, and has largely been abandoned, due it's proving to be of negligable benefit to most trauma sufferers, and actually injurious to some.

Dianetics and Scientology are two forms of abreaction that science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard borrowed from the United States Navy [2] when he spent three months in a San Diego hospital in 1943 with the complaints of an ulcer and malaria.[3] Hubbard later wrote, in his autobiography "My Philosophy," that he had observed abreactive therapy in the hospital, though in later life he claimed to have made the "discovery" on his own after being wounded in battle and given up as untreatable.[4] The United States Navy abandoned abreaction at the end of World War Two as they found it made post traumatic stress victims worse,[5] with no observable benefits.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abreaction

Yes, I forgot to mention that to some patients this method brings more pain than relief.

 

[Demented LRH]

I doubt very much asking a person about what was happening at the time of a trauma is exclusively a Dianetic procedure. Did the article mention attaching the client to a lie detector and asking questions from a pre-prepared list from the 1950s?

I believe that this method predates Dianetics, so it does not require the use of lie detector (e-meter). Most likely, Hubbard found it in the old psychology books.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

The question is -- where is scientific evidence showing that a soul (I prefer not to use the word "thetan" because it is unfamiliar to the general public) can be captured and hypnotized?

Ever watch Gilligan's Island? Need I say more? Mimsey

 

[Dilpickle]

Panda Termint ~ You made me Laugh! when you said this thread is full of Squirrels

DementedLRH ~ That sample of a Dianetic Session does seem to me to be full of eval and many other things I would not do.. it is hard to believe that LRH told anyone to do such a process, but if you say you read it somewhere, I have no reason to doubt you.. especially since I have seen Many Other instances where he broke his own codes.. in his tech, AND certainly in his behavior.

This is the Dianetic Procedure we use ~ according to whomever, on whatever Dianetics Course or Book or Tape, I don't know if it is accurate LRH, or what you would call DIANETICS, but it is what we use, and what works for us. Plus, keep in mind, that nobody is forced to run the Decision Questions if they blew the incident at some earlier point just looking at the incident by itself.. also, if the incident was particularly heavy or traumatic, and the PC was viewing very little of it for the first few times, you might ask them to go thru it a few extra times..

1. Recall a time when you were emotionally upset. When these run out ask for
times "your body was hurt"- illnesses, accidents , operations etc.
2. When was it? The PC can date it by significance ("the time the rock fell
on my foot") or location ("the time I was on the farm") or by number of
years ago, date etc.
3. Where were you at the time?
4. How long did the incident last?
5. Close your eyes.
6. Move to the beginning of the incident.
7. What do you perceive at the beginning of the incident?
8. Move through the incident to a point (duration) later.
9. Tell me what happened.

10. Move to the beginning of the incident and tell me when you are there.
11. Move through to the end of the incident.
12. Tell me what happened.

A. In that incident did you make a decision? (have the PC state the decision
as he would have at the time and have him repeat it two or three times or
until it stops reading on the meter)

Why did you decide (or think) that?

B. Tell me an emotion or feeling you had in that incident. (get answer) If
you could have expressed that emotion/feeling in a sentence how would you
have said it? ditto on repeat

Why did you feel that way?

C. In that incident did you make any negative or limiting decision about
yourself? ditto repeat/why?

D. In that incident did you make any decision about the future or how you
would deal with similar things in the future? ditto repeat/why?

E. In that incident did you have any unanswered question? Did anything seem
weird or mysterious or not understandable?
If yes, then- If you could have asked that as a question how would you have
asked it?

Repeat question two or three times or until it stops reading.

What caused you to have that question?

F. In that incident was there anything pleasant or beautiful? If you could
have expressed your feeling about that in a sentence how would you have said
it? Repeat/why?

G. In that incident was anything said or done that could have acted on you
like a command or suggestion? If yes find out what was said or communicated
and get the PC to say it the way it was said to him. Such as "You're no
good!" Have him repeat that two or three times or until it stops reading and
then ask- What did you think or decide in response to that? Such as "I guess
I'm no good." Repeat, then- Why did you decide that?

Repeat A to G until the PC runs out of answers or blows the incident. If he
runs out of answers ask- Is there an earlier similar incident? If no, ask-
Does the one we are running start earlier? If yes, ask- Move to the new
beginning of the incident and tell me when you are there. Repeat 11 to G
until incident blows. If he says there is an earlier similar incident run 2
to G on it, etc.

 

[Dilpickle]

PS: I really don't know WHEN the spiritual being actually enters the body.. If that information is somewhere in my head, I haven't accessed it. (Assuming folks here believe there IS a spiritual being)

With this in mind.. let us GUESS that the spiritual being enters the body at birth, and that there is also a Genetic Entity that entered the body immediately at conception.. who would be around for any prenatal type incidents.. All Guesses on my part. (If you believe there is anything called a GE)

If this is True, then when LRH told you you HAD to run Prenatals, and you struggled to find one, it would not be YOU, but the Genetic Entity you were addressing,

IF you came up with any information at all.. that would further CONFUSE your File Clerk (Which I think is just another name for YOU) into a WHO AM I REALLY Mode, and further keep the mind/being/GE in a state of some kind of confusion.

Am I ME? Am I the GE.. and the GE might be thinking, am I him? LOL Or the GE would not be getting acknowledged for who He was.. etc.. There is tech that addresses the GE directly.. and we have also used some of that from time to time with interesting results/wins.

IF any of this is true, it could be another way that LRH meant to trap us and NOT free us. All Total Speculation on my part.. however.. in the literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours that my friend and I have run our brand of Dianetics, NOBODY has run a prenatal. They have run a birth engram, YES, but NO prenatals..

 

[Smilla]

PS: I really don't know WHEN the spiritual being actually enters the body.. If that information is somewhere in my head, I haven't accessed it. (Assuming folks here believe there IS a spiritual being)

With this in mind.. let us GUESS that the spiritual being enters the body at birth, and that there is also a Genetic Entity that entered the body immediately at conception.. who would be around for any prenatal type incidents.. All Guesses on my part. (If you believe there is anything called a GE)

If this is True, then when LRH told you you HAD to run Prenatals, and you struggled to find one, it would not be YOU, but the Genetic Entity you were addressing,

IF you came up with any information at all.. that would further CONFUSE your File Clerk (Which I think is just another name for YOU) into a WHO AM I REALLY Mode, and further keep the mind/being/GE in a state of some kind of confusion.

Am I ME? Am I the GE.. and the GE might be thinking, am I him? LOL Or the GE would not be getting acknowledged for who He was.. etc.. There is tech that addresses the GE directly.. and we have also used some of that from time to time with interesting results/wins.

IF any of this is true, it could be another way that LRH meant to trap us and NOT free us. All Total Speculation on my part.. however.. in the literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours that my friend and I have run our brand of Dianetics, NOBODY has run a prenatal. They have run a birth engram, YES, but NO prenatals..

What makes you think that the Being is contained in the body?

I am not inside the body.

The body is inside me.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

PS: I really don't know WHEN the spiritual being actually enters the body.. If that information is somewhere in my head, I haven't accessed it. (Assuming folks here believe there IS a spiritual being)

With this in mind.. let us GUESS that the spiritual being enters the body at birth, and that there is also a Genetic Entity that entered the body immediately at conception.. who would be around for any prenatal type incidents.. All Guesses on my part. (If you believe there is anything called a GE)

If this is True, then when LRH told you you HAD to run Prenatals, and you struggled to find one, it would not be YOU, but the Genetic Entity you were addressing,

IF you came up with any information at all.. that would further CONFUSE your File Clerk (Which I think is just another name for YOU) into a WHO AM I REALLY Mode, and further keep the mind/being/GE in a state of some kind of confusion.

Am I ME? Am I the GE.. and the GE might be thinking, am I him? LOL Or the GE would not be getting acknowledged for who He was.. etc.. There is tech that addresses the GE directly.. and we have also used some of that from time to time with interesting results/wins.

IF any of this is true, it could be another way that LRH meant to trap us and NOT free us. All Total Speculation on my part.. however.. in the literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours that my friend and I have run our brand of Dianetics, NOBODY has run a prenatal. They have run a birth engram, YES, but NO prenatals..

Give it a break.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Originally Posted by Dilpickle
PS: I really don't know WHEN the spiritual being actually enters the body.. If that information is somewhere in my head, I haven't accessed it. (Assuming folks here believe there IS a spiritual being) With this in mind.. let us GUESS that the spiritual being enters the body at birth, and that there is also a Genetic Entity that entered the body immediately at conception.. who would be around for any prenatal type incidents.. All Guesses on my part. (If you believe there is anything called a GE)If this is True, then when LRH told you you HAD to run Prenatals, and you struggled to find one, it would not be YOU, but the Genetic Entity you were addressing, IF you came up with any information at all.. that would further CONFUSE your File Clerk (Which I think is just another name for YOU) into a WHO AM I REALLY Mode, and further keep the mind/being/GE in a state of some kind of confusion. Am I ME? Am I the GE.. and the GE might be thinking, am I him? LOL Or the GE would not be getting acknowledged for who He was.. etc.. There is tech that addresses the GE directly.. and we have also used some of that from time to time with interesting results/wins.IF any of this is true, it could be another way that LRH meant to trap us and NOT free us. All Total Speculation on my part.. however.. in the literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours that my friend and I have run our brand of Dianetics, NOBODY has run a prenatal. They have run a birth engram, YES, but NO prenatals..

What you have described above sounds like a thought engram.

Try running that out.

HELPFUL AUDITING TIP: Scientific research has clearly proven that the material you have described was an engram received by all beings a long time ago when an evil supreme ruler tricked them into reporting in for an "audit". Then they were given this engram and their analytical mind shut down at which time they were implanted (using electronic devices, where the being was hooked up to two electrodes often attached to metallic cylinders that could be manually grasped) for many days with false pictures and ideas about heaven, beings, freedom, GEs, immortality, religion, prenatals, engrams and other concepts designed to fool the being and make them into slaves. Auditors familiar with these materials will know that they are replete with Bouncers and Deniers which make the preclear believe that this really was not an engram but, instead, a win.

 

[TG1]

I haven't put anyone on ignore for over a year.

And now, it's time to do so again.

Aaaahhhh ... that's better!

TG1

 

[Claire Swazey]

What makes you think that the Being is contained in the body?

I am not inside the body.

The body is inside me.

Dang, girl, you're writing some awesome posts lately!

 

[Dilpickle]

What makes you think that the Being is contained in the body?

I am not inside the body.

The body is inside me.

OK OK. I'm thinking the Spirit is larger than the body.. yes.. mmm hmmm... Let us say then.. when the Spirit attaches itself to the body.. or becomes responsible for the body, or decides to hitch a ride on that body into the Physical Universe or whatever the heck happens at that point

 

[Smilla]

OK OK. I'm thinking the Spirit is larger than the body.. yes.. mmm hmmm... Let us say then.. when the Spirit attaches itself to the body.. or becomes responsible for the body, or decides to hitch a ride on that body into the Physical Universe or whatever the heck happens at that point

It's an interesting topic, eh?

 

[phenomanon]

What data do you have which might help differentiate the DMSMH "wins" along a causation/correlation continuum?

No dox, if that's what you want. I have only my widespread acquaintance with early
Dn'ists.
Do you doubt that there were "big wins" (tm) with DN in the early days? If so, why do ya suppose that it spread across the Country so rapidly?

I confess that I don't know what you mean by a "differentiate the DMSMH "wins' along a causation/continuum". Could you dumb it down?

phenomanon

 

[phenomanon]

Are you saying that certain material presented in Volume I has no relation to Dianetics? Well, you might be right about that if you define Dianetics as NED. But NED itself is not original Dianetics, so I was told; it is a deviation from the original Dianetics, as Veda pointed out in his post.

As I said before, after failing to convince the general public that original Dianetics can cure brain tumors, ulcers, etc., Hubbard replaced it with the procedures that he "borrowed" from scientific articles. He made it look like he invented those procedures, which is a lie.

I was also told that the Volume I and II material is obsolete, which may be true. But, as we say, if it's not broken, don't fix it. Why would Hubbard need to replace the old Dianetics with NED if the old version was doing miracles?

One good reason is that 'original Dn' is an unlimited process. IOW, it could be run for an unspecified length of time and could take forever to produce results, if ever. O wait. By 'original DN' do you mean Bk 1? Or are you talking about something else?

At any rate, the 'tweaking' or refinements of DMSMH auditing are fast and there is an end product. NED is fast ( but not my favorite rendition) and there is an EP to it.

I was CL8 when I did the Bk 1 Course, and I saw it as an indoc step which showed the PC how something that happened in his past influenced his present.

YMMV.

phenomanon

 

[phenomanon]

That would be Hubbard. I was just following his instructions.

No.
Dox or STFU

phenomanao

 

[phenomanon]

If it falls down before you get to the other side, do you get your money back?

Dunno. It's a long way down. You might not be concerned with getting your $5 back.
It's only a toll as you drive into the City. They don't charge you to leave. LOL.

phenomanon

 

[Demented LRH]

Panda Termint ~ You made me Laugh! when you said this thread is full of Squirrels

DementedLRH ~ That sample of a Dianetic Session does seem to me to be full of eval and many other things I would not do.. it is hard to believe that LRH told anyone to do such a process, but if you say you read it somewhere, I have no reason to doubt you.. especially since I have seen Many Other instances where he broke his own codes.. in his tech, AND certainly in his behavior.

This is the Dianetic Procedure we use ~ according to whomever, on whatever Dianetics Course or Book or Tape, I don't know if it is accurate LRH, or what you would call DIANETICS, but it is what we use, and what works for us. Plus, keep in mind, that nobody is forced to run the Decision Questions if they blew the incident at some earlier point just looking at the incident by itself.. also, if the incident was particularly heavy or traumatic, and the PC was viewing very little of it for the first few times, you might ask them to go thru it a few extra times..

1. Recall a time when you were emotionally upset. When these run out ask for
times "your body was hurt"- illnesses, accidents , operations etc.
2. When was it? The PC can date it by significance ("the time the rock fell
on my foot") or location ("the time I was on the farm") or by number of
years ago, date etc.
3. Where were you at the time?
4. How long did the incident last?
5. Close your eyes.
6. Move to the beginning of the incident.
7. What do you perceive at the beginning of the incident?
8. Move through the incident to a point (duration) later.
9. Tell me what happened.

10. Move to the beginning of the incident and tell me when you are there.
11. Move through to the end of the incident.
12. Tell me what happened.

A. In that incident did you make a decision? (have the PC state the decision
as he would have at the time and have him repeat it two or three times or
until it stops reading on the meter)

Why did you decide (or think) that?

B. Tell me an emotion or feeling you had in that incident. (get answer) If
you could have expressed that emotion/feeling in a sentence how would you
have said it? ditto on repeat

Why did you feel that way?

C. In that incident did you make any negative or limiting decision about
yourself? ditto repeat/why?

D. In that incident did you make any decision about the future or how you
would deal with similar things in the future? ditto repeat/why?

E. In that incident did you have any unanswered question? Did anything seem
weird or mysterious or not understandable?
If yes, then- If you could have asked that as a question how would you have
asked it?

Repeat question two or three times or until it stops reading.

What caused you to have that question?

F. In that incident was there anything pleasant or beautiful? If you could
have expressed your feeling about that in a sentence how would you have said
it? Repeat/why?

G. In that incident was anything said or done that could have acted on you
like a command or suggestion? If yes find out what was said or communicated
and get the PC to say it the way it was said to him. Such as "You're no
good!" Have him repeat that two or three times or until it stops reading and
then ask- What did you think or decide in response to that? Such as "I guess
I'm no good." Repeat, then- Why did you decide that?

Repeat A to G until the PC runs out of answers or blows the incident. If he
runs out of answers ask- Is there an earlier similar incident? If no, ask-
Does the one we are running start earlier? If yes, ask- Move to the new
beginning of the incident and tell me when you are there. Repeat 11 to G
until incident blows. If he says there is an earlier similar incident run 2
to G on it, etc.

Some of the stuff that you mentioned in your post could be found in Volume I and II. However, these Volumes say nothing about decision-making.
I have a copy of Freud's most famous book, The Interpretation of Dreams. It contains similar decision-making stuff, although it refers to the dreams. Hubbard wrote somewhere that he had studied psychoanalysis. Perhaps, he borrowed this procedure from Freud and included it in his later writings that I am not familiar with.

 

[Smilla]

Some of the stuff that you mentioned in your post could be found in Volume I and II. However, these Volumes say nothing about decision-making.
I have a copy of Freud's most famous book, The Interpretation of Dreams. It contains similar decision-making stuff, although it refers to the dreams. Hubbard wrote somewhere that he had studied psychoanalysis. Perhaps, he borrowed this procedure from Freud and included it in his later writings that I am not familiar with.

Lol. He should have stuck with Nuclear Physics, that's where he really shone.