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ESMB Poster "David Mayo"

uniquemand said:
Is there some reason posters are devolving to attributing evil intentions (or any intentions) to Vinaire? Is there some reason this is acceptable?

I'd love it if we could stick to discussion of the OP, or skip the thread if it's not of interest.
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I don't attribute any "evil intentions" to Vinaire.

I think he's just deluded. (And posts his own delusions on any thread of his liking)
 
Vinaire said:
I think you are trying to do exactly the same thing that you are accusing me of. You want people to think your way, don't you?

People are getting hung up on my beingness because they see themselves in it, but are relieved to think it is not them.

It is illusion. You are I are the same. Gadfly and I are the same.

The problem is getting hung up on the beingness as I have said many times before.

You may feel better if you just look at the data and the consistency or inconsistency of it.

.
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I live in Russia, and people of the world will NEVER think the way I am.

Vinaire, you, with your philosophy, just keep twisting people's brains (on things they know to be otherwise, and haven't had questions about brought up by you subjects in the first place... and lived happily).

And, yes! I'm against that!
 
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uniquemand said:
Is there some reason posters are devolving to attributing evil intentions (or any intentions) to Vinaire? Is there some reason this is acceptable?

I'd love it if we could stick to discussion of the OP, or skip the thread if it's not of interest.
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Yeah, agree. Vinnie has some history with D. Mayo. Leave him be, as in enough already, in this thread. Is it something with the old $cn indoctrination into a "Communication Formula" that Vinnie's annoying originations, questions, or half-acks just can't be passed over? Wtf, you know? This just seems pointless badgering and takedown for the hell of it. Or how 'bout taking it to one of Vinnie's own threads.
 
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Caliwog said:
I think that there are many cases in history of some very important and positive work being done by some real assholes. A lot of the time, the character of the discoverer/inventor does not matter.

But there are some cases where you have to look at motivation, and I think self-help and religion are among these. One has to decide what Hubbard's purpose was: To help Mankind or to help himself. That affects the validity of the tech.

I think most of you know what I believe. :) In my observations, much of that in the Tech which does work was discovered elsewhere (though Hubbard may not say so). I also think that some of the tech that *seems* to work does so for reasons other than the Tech itself. (For example, in the Admin Tech, the fact that everyone using the same rulebook streamlines things and makes things go well. In truth, though, the Management Technology isn't any better than the WOG way of doing things.)

But I digress. Again. What was I saying?

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com
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Caliwog said:
Vinaire, what makes you think that I've made a judgement without first looking? That was kind of the whole point of my post.

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com
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When one is looking at second hand observation one cannot determine the veracity of it simply from the character of the source of that data. As you correctly said that the beingness of the source of information is irrelevant. But then you reverse yourself. I don't see the exceptions that you make.

People see Hubbard's data all correct when they consider him as "good". But then others see his data all wrong and misleading when they consider him "evil". This could even be the same person, who first judged the data one way, and then judged it the other way, depending on how he felt about the source of that information. To me, either side is erring in seeing what is there. They are using the via of the persumed source of data to figure out what is there.

To me, one can only judge data by comparing it to itsef. By that I mean looking at the inherent consistencies and inconsistencies in tha data.

Correct thinking or judgment is vital and necessary, but it follows from non-judgmental looking, which does not employ any vias.

.
 
I think it's all MENTAL - and Vinaire, and discussons, and people who like to dicuss what he has to offer.

EDIT: as opposed to being SPIRITUAL(ly oriented)
 
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Vianaire said:

Vinaire said:
It is always a mistake to take something at face value, or put a judgement (positive or negatie) there instead of simply looking.

.
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Agreed. It is so easy to make that mistake. But one can train oneself to take a good look before reacting. Just takes practice.

D
 
Uh huh, Uh huh, Uh HUH!

David Mayo said:
Who are you to judge?

Simply Emma. The person who made so much possible through the ESMB. Never lose sight of that, nor of what you have done and what you can and will do.

And if people are desperate to talk to their space cooties, or think that there are space cooties, that would bother me immensely. IT IS NOT WHAT I INTENDED nor what I expected. That is a misconception.

David M
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I think I knew this already, but I am REALLY GLAD to hear you say it! :happydance:
 
Sounds like very helpful counseling to me!

Julie Mayo said:
We had always stressed that a person should get any medical treatment and get in good physical condition. Back at the AAC we encouraged people to go to medical clinics to get full physical checkups if there were any physical problems. The Causality Programs continued that approach and we had daily regular exercise. We knew it was good for the brain as well as well as general well being.

The Causality Programs had a three pronged approach: The first step was to relieve negativity, (traumatic incidents, failures), on any given subject. An example of this could be relieving painful memories of giving a poor public speech and getting jeered.

The second step was education. Depending on the subject, this could be sending the person to a college or university to do.Taking the public speaking example, this could be taking a class in debating, public speaking, or performing.

The third step was internship. This is where the person went out and practiced the skills. If the person ran into further difficulties, steps 1 through 3 could be repeated if necessary.

Through years of counseling, we had discovered that a person centered approach had limitations. The person might discharge all negativity on a subject, get revitalized, then set forth and carry on with the same erroneous behavior that had gotten him in trouble in the first place. That is why the education step.

We also had discovered that many people receiving counseling such as traumatic incident reduction kept looking into their past to resolve problems long past when it was beneficial. Some past incidents are traumatic and it is beneficial to relieve them, but once that is done, there are other things that influence a person even more: education, culture, family, world events, books, current environment, friends, teachers and so forth. We developed a procedure we called the Influences program to help a person review what had positive and negative impacts on her or his life. It is amazing what huge impact just seeing an inspirational (or scary), movie can have on a person's life.

This is quite an abbreviated description, but I thought you might be interested as to how our thoughts on personal development evolved over the years.

We haven't been delivering Causality Programs for quite a number of years, but I think the results were positive.
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Amen to all of the above, Julie! :thumbsup:
 
Yes, thanks Julie. I have read the influences program, the identity program, and the postulates program as they were written in the journals of metapsychology. They were relatively simple, straight-forward, and looked complete. Those programs are currently not in use within that framework, which was one of the reasons I made sure I got copies of those journals: I wanted that stuff! The "evidence base" for their successful outcome is not there, as is the case with the majority of procedures in use, excepting traumatic incident reduction. I don't pretend procedures that don't have this basis are scientific, but I do maintain that they are philosophically consistent.

It is very good that you CAN talk about these things here.

I look forward to more posts from you. Please don't take any of the paranoid speculative fantasy that I engage in from time to time as an actual accusation of either you or David. I'm a staunch supporter of what I've seen in writing from David and now, yourself.

Only Nixon could go to China.

I'm a metapsychology facilitator, trained long after you and David had ceased working with them. I don't speak for applied metapsychology or traumatic incident reduction association, and I suspect I may be severely stretching the patience of its current administration or other founding writers by participating in this manner, given that they (some of them?) are likely also bound by gag orders and would prefer if the shadow of the scientology history would never be reified. What is, is.

BTW, I agree with you about the possible severe warping effect of watching a movie, or a book, even though those things never happened to you, personally. A good horror movie can get the old fear reflexes in high gear, creating an environment where the setting is ripe for PTSD phenomena. The same is true for a book like "The Shining", or "Jaws", or "Cujo". Very fun reads, but possible to cause lingering associations that you'd normally think could only be created by an actual shark attack, etc. There are other scenarios, where a movie is very sad, or about a very heavily "charged" subject, such as incest, etc., that can actually cause "missed withhold" phenomena, or the whole range of other reactions to "charge".

Thanks again for the thought-provoking post.
 
Panda Termint said:
I'm thinking that Vinaire desires interaction. If someone were willing to interact with him on his own threads he wouldn't need to bring the subjects of those threads to other areas. We need a volunteer... it's a good cause in terms of the "greatest good for the greatest number of threads"... :omg: what's happening to me?
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Fine. You go. You're an OT VIII. You can confront anything. :)


Mark A. Baker
 
uniquemand said:
... I suspect I may be severely stretching the patience of its current administration or other founding writers by participating in this manner, given that they (some of them?) are likely also bound by gag orders and would prefer if the shadow of the scientology history would never be reified. What is, is.
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Yeah, well they are stuck with the history as it is. If you eat the candy expect the calories too. :whistling:


Mark A. Baker
 
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